Your team have
in the jungle? Or maybe a Marksmen in Top or Mid?
Or maybe you have
on your team?
Try a non-marksman bot. Your team already has a shitton of AD dmg it makes sense to try and have initiation or maybe even some AP in the bot lane.
meowwow72 votesyeah like a cass and morg bot lane and watch cass throw a q and a couple of e's while they are still snared from you
Tobias Brackner2 votesThat's perfect! Cass even has Marksman-like sustained dmg output and her ult is strong force for dragon fights.
Lyndris2 votesAZIR!!!!!! that is all
Tobias Brackner1 votesAzir almost makes the most sense. He practically already functions like an AP Marksman since you build AS items on him.
Paquay1 votesYou really only build like one though. Some people go boots, but Nashors tooth is the only AS he consistently builds.
Lyndris1 votesEvery try the boots and nashors and AS runes(mastery for teh evenness) 130% AS plus what he gets from his w(i forget how much)
Paquay1 votesYeah, berserkers is common enough but I think you still see more magic pen. Also wasn't thinking about runes but I believe they go either way as well.
I'm going to play around with the builds some and see if AS suits me better. But the point still stands, aside from boots which could go either way, Azir only really does Nashors for Most everything else focuses on AP.
Lyndris1 votesI wasn't disagreeing with you just offering a heavy AS build. And with the new Abyssal perhaps you could get away without pen boots cause a tanky person will pick it up. Bur yea it is full AP for him. I like the heavy AS build because you can't build much AS on him :/ He scales pretty hard with it too
TyrekGoldenspear1 votesHis best build (or at least the build I use) is an ATK Speed focused + AP build that involves maxing W first in lane.
He does indeed scale quite hard with atk speed, but you need AP as well, which is why I usually build stinger and then leave it at that as maxing W gives me the atk speed from Nashors while letting me then rush Morellos and then Rylais before finishing Nashors.
My boots depend on the enemy. If they have lots of squishies I go Berserkers. If they have some tanky champs I go pen boots.
Paquay1 votesHaha, I wasn't disagreeing either. It could definitely go either way, but I do like the AS boots/runes with Nashors and the rest AP.
Tobias Brackner1 votesTrue but at the end of the day the point is that he is dealing out constant AP dmg.
Paquay1 votesYes, he does. You said he builds AS items and I was just pointing out that he builds one or two. Not debating anything else. Not sure why you addressed something I didn't bring up.
Tobias Brackner1 votesYeah, sorry, this one guy has been harassing me whenever I post anything and it's really frustrating to converse with him so that kinda bled into this too.
Hell, just in general I've found a lot of the League community to get really confrontational (like my last few games) so it puts me on edge sometimes when I post. My bad.
MrHaZeYo1 voteshehe
It's cause you don't converse. You just say stupid things :).
Darkdemon6532 votes[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Vlix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xEUXaPw9,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-03T08:29:50.402+0000)
AZIR!!!!!! that is all
I'm surprised this didn't become a thing. Even with the reduced levels he'd get from being with a support, no RAD could ever dream of trading with him.
Lyndris2 votesIt be cause of the meta and he is a "mage".... I AM ALWAYS DOWN TO TRY CARRYING WITH 
. But i only norms and am eh with him. I do play some positioning heavy champs like
and 
plus teaches you when to go in and wreck. Add me (anyone just say boards and azir) if you want to support an or would like to be supported as him (i have galactic btw)
Tobias Brackner1 votesI honestly think the only reason this didn't become a thing is a weird traditionalist mindset and a general fear in League to try out new things, even when they make perfect sense.
TyrekGoldenspear1 votesAzir player here. Let me tell you why we don't usually take Azir bot.
There are challenges to face when taking Azir bot lane. I'll list some of them here.
Your trading requires mana.
You have poke, but unlike an AD marksman you need Q to reposition if they move out of soldier range.
Azir has weak solider damage early game because the base damage on his soldiers scale off of his level, not off W's rank. Meaning if I want the damage I need levels to get stronger soldiers.
He deals mostly magic damage, so the support can get away with building only MR, if it's a tanky support we won't be denting them until I get some Magic pen.
However here are the benefits.
With the proper support he can poke and zone insanely hard. If both he and his support are pokers then the bot lane will be very painful for his opponent.
He has a built in escape/peel for himself and his support as an extra line of defense in case things go wrong.
He does a crap ton of damage late game like an ADC, but his damage is AOE.
He is at least 15x cooler than any other ADC. That voice tho.
Shurima.
He provides your team with magic damage if your midlaner instalocks Yasuo.
Lyndris1 votesThis i completely agree with.
Critmaster Garen2 votesthere are a couple of guys who run bot lane 
, and bot lane 
is still a viable pick. at least he would be if he wasnt overall too weak right now due to item nerfs.
however putting anything but a marksman bot lane is still difficult. especially for melee champions. when you get a ranged bot lane for opponents, its difficult to do anything but try to survive their constant poke for 10 minutes. its just not fun, even if its possible.
Tobias Brackner1 votesDepends on matchup and who you have w/ you on Supp.
If you are an aggro melee champ or one who can go aggro then you can go in hard on the enemy laners.
Alternatively, you can use long-range farming tools and have the support help you clear the minion wave.
MrHaZeYo1 votesSomething you'll learn as you get better, that's not always that easy. Picking any melee champion as a "ADC" puts you at a disadvantage, no matter your support, because now the enemy ADC who also has a support has full on advantage of being able to harass you when you try to get farm and thus pushing you into turret. Supports also do a high amount of damage early game as they are meant to be lane bullies for the most part to carry their ADC. ADC's can also harass you under turret, where as you can't do the same back to them.
Tobias Brackner1 votesWhy are you assuming that the enemy support is also ranged?
Why are you assuming that the melee botlaner and support aren't the kind that can hard engage?
Why are you assuming that the melee botlaner and support don't have combined tools to allow effective wave clear to allow for safe farm despite harass?
MrHaZeYo1 votesWhy are you assuming a Leo Darius can hard engage a full HP duo bot with half HP from being poked out Pre-3 when they can more successfully go all in?
Why are you assuming that Xin with Brand can out harass (Insert standard ADC) (Insert standard Mage support)?
Why are you assuming that the champions vs the melee botlaners don't have tools to disengage and peel back? Shit any ADC with a Lulu, Nami, or Janna would destroy a Melee botlaner without trying.
Tobias Brackner1 votesLulu, Nami, or Janna
Oh ok so you are agreeing with me again.
After all, by your own admission if they weren't up against those supports with strong disengage then they wouldn't have to deal with this "constant harass."
MrHaZeYo1 votes
Will all make your life hell as a Melee AD.
Also, Lulu and Nami can both harass amazingly early game, I just picked 3 Supports off the top of my head.
Are you really this dumb?
Tobias Brackner1 votesHey! You are actually providing evidence now! I'm very proud of you <3
But what if you have...your own support?
What if you have a jungler who synergizes with your bot lane's strengths allowing for some nasty ganks?
What if bot lane is an incredibly complicated interaction of 4+ human beings that is almost impossible to tell the exact outcome?
What if you didn't ignore the concept of a bot-lane duo that has the tools to be able to waveclear through the power of teamwork?
MrHaZeYo1 votesYes that teamwork were the bot lane with a actual Marksman (Or Mage) destroy the team work of the disadvantaged Melee and his support?
Let me ask you this, why do you think the ADC and Support go bot together? Why do you think, year after year, after year. this has never changed? Why do you think this is meta to do this?
Why do the pros never go melee bot laners?
I'm not ignoring things that can't be foreseen, probability goes into factor here, the odds of it working or a lot less than you apparently think.
Tobias Brackner1 votesYes that teamwork were the bot lane with a actual Marksman (Or Mage) destroy the team work of the disadvantaged Melee and his support?
Oh so you are saying it's a skill matchup! That makes a lot of sense.
Also, before you start being "why do you think the pro's do it?" how about you actually defend your own argument? Stay on topic, have confidence in your ability to form an argument ;)
MrHaZeYo1 votesEverything in League is a skill match up, which is why things CAN be done, statistically though it rarely works.
That is my argument dumbass, if it was good why wouldn't pros do it. Try learning to use actual conterpoints.
Tobias Brackner1 votesEh, I will say that League has enough variables for some matchups to be less up to skill and more about "can we sneak another person into the lane without losing objectives elsewhere."
When I say a "skill matchup" I mean that there neither side has an overwhelming advantage based on their core kit and play style.
So when you say that the teamwork of one side is countered by the teamwork of the other side, you obviously mean that both sides are working effectively as a team and the more skilled one is the one that will be victorious without either one having an overbearing advantage. Otherwise, why would you even bring up teamwork as a factor in the argument?
MrHaZeYo1 votesSee, I actually like this. This is the 1st real response I've seen from you.
In League everything comes down to skill, there is no running from that, Ahri should beat Ziggs in lane, but that's not to say that if Ziggs isn't the better player that he can't over come the handicap.
That's basically what you have in this bot lane senerio. The Melee + Support could beat a ADC + Support, but the odds are stacked against them. If the AD/Supp play it right though you should be completely zoned from your farm, and prehaps your XP. Even last hitting under turret will be a pain as you're melee and hes ranged. You're jungler could come gank if they push up but then you are completely depending on him to do so to stabilize your lane. Their is also the chance the AD's jungler thinks will happen and be there to counter gank, putting you in a bad 3v3 skirmish.
Tobias Brackner1 votesbut the odds are stacked against them
But they aren't. If you read my posts you'd see why.
However you aren't interested in addressing any of my points. You are interested in spouting nonsense that I can only assume has been drilled into your head. You refuse to think.
MrHaZeYo1 votesWhat are you talking about? You gave no info of anything. Please Paste it here.
Their is a difference between following and experiencing. Like I've said before I've watch dam near every NA/EU LCS and every international tourney since Season3. I've played over 4k games on the rift. I've read and studied this game for four years. Shit if my in game mechanics matched my knowledge I'd be high plat+
KVbqbFsC8e2 votesIt will make taking objectives much more difficult.
Tobias Brackner1 votesDepends on what your team composition wants to do and what its lacking.
MrHaZeYo2 votesDon't try to argue with him, I'd like to think he's trolling but reading some of his other responses elsewhere, I think he's just a bronze idiot lol.
RenownedWheat422 votes
all things I've seen work bot
Tobias Brackner1 votesDouble support is a very interesting lane concept. I like it because it's pretty easy to fill the other lanes with hyper aggressive laners that don't really bring much utility to the overall match.
I am a full supporter of having Azir in the botline, he's literally a Marksman.
Scary Door2 votesBy all means, put a non-marksman bot lane if you're on the enemy team... I'll play Caitlyn and it's gg easy. Thanks for the free IP/LP/MMR.
Tobias Brackner1 votesYou sure Caitlyn has no bad matchups against non-Marksman champs?
MrHaZeYo1 votesCan you name some that she would?
Flatlining1 votes ADC. No way the other team will stay positive... it's a nightmare with the right "support."
Tobias Brackner1 votesNot sure about building her with AD. She gets a lot of mileage out of building AP and none of her moves really strengthen increased AD or AS.
Flatlining2 votesWell yeah... I guess APC? Was referring more to the lane itself (as opposed to support).
But yeah, just a typical AP build and good to go.
Tobias Brackner1 votesOh yeah I completely agree with that. Lux has a lot of power in her ult but also a shitton of power in her kit before the ult. Put that with another poke support and you are set up to out-poke whatever you are up against.
Flatlining2 votesI've run it with a Darius iirc for more of a kill lane too. Super nasty even when you don't have another marksman. Lux eats all the minions while Darius zones. If they get too close, Darius pulls, you Q & E, Darius follows up with bleed, then ult as needed. Last time we did it, we'd dominated so much by the time we got to team fighting it was already over.
Tobias Brackner1 votesI can definitely see that working. Personally I'd let Darius get the farm (and maybe have a 
) because I feel if the enemy team makes it out of the laning phase Darius will be more hurting to make an impact than Lux.
Mysticman891 votesI don't think you understand why it's a marksman in the duo lane.
It's not a "the team needs AD damage, may as well be bot", it's a "Marksmen, unlike mages, scale primarily off of gold and not levels, and so the shared xp aspect of laning with a support is not a problem. (Similarly, conventional supports are so chosen because they are inherently useful even without gold/levels.)".
The vast majority if not all ap champs would end up outscaled by their solo lane counterparts due to being a level or two down, and so be relatively unimpactful. There are lots of good initiation options for the support role, and if you have 4 other members that are poor initiators already, maybe your comp is better off focusing on splitpushing and/or getting picks rather than trying to initiate in the first place.
Tobias Brackner1 votesWell looking at a few Mages it would appear that missing 2 lvls would have them miss out on 60~100 dmg in a full rotation of their combo. It would appear that Mages get the vast majority of their dmg from the items that they buy. Now mileage may vary on this but I can't help but feel that there is a good number of mages who while technically they are most optimal in a solo lane in terms of damage output or otherwise ability scaling will not outweigh the utility or power that champion provides in the lane.
Also I agree that players need to keep an open mind to their composition, at the end of the day this is just something you need to play by ear. In my example I'm kind of implying that the team is one that does enjoy teamfighting but I also want to say that it never hurts to have teamfighting tools in case things aren't going perfect and you are forced into a fight.