They played Ziggs botlane and kicked ass

Tobias Brackner·Apr 29, 2017·6 votes·1,050 views

I think it's time for us to discuss other non-marksman characters that can go bot.

I've had great mileage with

Also if your team has a marksman jung, mid, or top you can slap down there

113 Comments

AhristocatsApr 29, 20176 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfwuqCkq9ao

and it's going to be buffed in next patch

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20171 votes

ahhhhh yus

AhristocatsApr 29, 20173 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/5fae82003245169c4e1e18c3fa4397cf.png

this is a screenshot that i took during the time i played adc darius, my win rate was insane with it and got me to master, i can't wait to play it again

apparently it has 0.0% pick rate atm

GankedByWindowsApr 29, 20174 votes

Ziggs works because he fills the tower destroyer niche that adcs fill normally. If you take something like Illaoi in botlane, not only will you get smashed from the range advantage but lategame your team can't take objectives nearly as fast. At the moment, supplementing that by putting a marksman top (why? just have illaoi go top) or mid just doesn't work because they get smashed in lane. You could make the arguement for Graves, but he lacks the range to be a reliable tower killer in seige situations.

BLACK REALM GODApr 29, 20171 votes

why no one considers the option of putting both support and marksman top i have no idea. you can force an enemy jungler into an uncomfortable scenario by doing that.

GankedByWindowsApr 29, 20178 votes

It has been considered. The reason it isn't done is because it actually doesn't force the jungler into an uncomfortable scenario. They just take the free dragons because now bottom side is their strong side of the map. Additonally, you're also losing first tower like that because bottom turret doesn't get the pre 7 minute bonus armor like top does.

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20172 votes

Watch tournaments. Lane swapping was a huge thing.

FooDangApr 29, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aRO6JaMh,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-29T21:42:44.710+0000) Watch tournaments. Lane swapping was a huge thing.

Not anymore and this is why

{quoted}

Additonally, you're also losing first tower like that because bottom turret doesn't get the pre 7 minute bonus armor like top does.

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20172 votes

Not anymore

...that's why I said "was"

And I figured it stopped because Rito talked to the coaches and said "Seriously, this shit is boring as fuck, stop it." Because both sides were completely happy trading towers forever.

FooDangApr 29, 20172 votes

I was wondering why you said that when he already explained why its not the meta. I'm pretty sure they knew that lane swapping was a thing lol.

Agreed that lane swapping is was BoringAF.

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20172 votes

Watch tournaments. Lane swapping was ahuge thing.

BLACK REALM GODApr 29, 20171 votes

im talking about playing with duo lanes top instead of bottom. with junglers that can successfully take a drake at level 3 solo why is there the need to feel that it needs to be controlled.

im not talking about mid game swaps. im talking about just actually playing with 2 top 1 bottom.

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20173 votes

Homie, that's what I'm saying.

Watch tournaments, lane swapping was huge thing. It dominated the meta for a long ass time and made the game super boring because right out the gates the teams would agree to not play for the first 5-10 minutes while they trade towers.

PhDs NutsApr 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aRO6JaMh,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-29T22:09:52.966+0000)

Homie, that's what I'm saying.

Watch tournaments, lane swapping was huge thing. It dominated the meta for a long ass time and made the game super boring because right out the gates the teams would agree to not play for the first 5-10 minutes while they trade towers.

Lane swapping was popular because of 2 things:

Got shitty matchups out of lane phase earlier
Gave equal gold to both teams for taking turrets, so it was a sum-zero trade with a boost in gold for items

Number 2 doesn't exist anymore with first blood turrets. It's an uneven trade.

Tobias BracknerApr 30, 20171 votes

Scratch out number 1. Winning lanes traded all the time.

I've seen Lucians opt out of laning against kogmaws.

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20171 votes

Maybe that's cause the top laners where uneven, and Luc team wanted to get his top laner out of a bad situation.

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

Nah, the top laners tended to be both wet-noodle super tanks.

Both teams just wanted to not play for 10 whatever minutes and get free gold.

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20172 votes

Ya that does tend to happen. Even still a Naut into Poppy is a shit lane for Poppy because he can just push her out.

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

Yeah but those things can be mitigated with jg support or even alternate play from the "losing" lane.

Not just throwing in the towel and agreeing to not play the game in exchange for dosh.

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20171 votes

If your jungler has to camp for a tank lane then he is giving control to the enemy jungler who can camp for a Carry lane, while also giving the control over to Dragon.

If a Support goes top to help the Top laner then his ADC is 2v1ing bot, and that will more than likely hurt more then it'll help.

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

Then the Carry lane plays like they know they are going to be camped by the Jungler and it all comes down to skill.

Also they aren't giving control to Dragon. Not until later will you see teams be able to take dragon w/o receiving significant dmg so they would still be risking death unless they can get kills (see previous statement about it coming down to skill)

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

a lot of Gold and XP

Eh, depends on how much they are outskilled in the botlane. The Jungler still needs to clear the jungle so I imagine gold and XP would still be close.

if no wards I take it

Clearly because you know that if you are caught you will be low enough from Dragon's dmg to be easily killed. Glad you agree with me, though you use too many words to say so. You can win a 3v2 if you have a drag on the side of the 2. The lane w/ the dragon has 2 people, remember?

Tobias BracknerMay 3, 20171 votes

Uh, could you show me where the support is supposed to walk all the way top lane?

Are you talking about where I said

Yeah but those things can be mitigated with jg support

Because you have some hardcore misinterpretation right there that I have no idea why you would think anyone would propose that idea.

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20172 votes

You are ignoring the fact that you now have Illaoi next to an early teamfighting objectives.

Also Illaoi has more than enough tools to safely farm and survive against ranged opponents.

You are also ignoring the purpose of this whole thread by talking about champions that can be sent bot w/ a support aside from Marksmen.

GankedByWindowsApr 29, 20172 votes

2 people are always going to be stronger than the illaoi that has 20 farm at 10 minutes. Go back and watch when the lane swap you're proposing was the meta. Top laners got maybe 30 cs at best at 10 minutes. I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying its weaker.

I didn't ignore the second part either. I stated why only Ziggs works bottom with a support. Even when Riot tried to shoehorn Mordekaiser into the botlane, it only worked when he was digustingly overpowered to compensate.

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20171 votes

Why are you assuming Illaoi is alone in the lane?

And Morde wasn't even disgustingly overpowered. People just could not comprehend the fact that they shouldn't stand next to the guy with the mace and whined hard enough for Rito to nerf it.

GankedByWindowsApr 29, 20171 votes

Because if you put your adc alone toplane they will get absolutely decimated. They have a support for a reason.

Dude, Morkaiser was so ridiculous season 5 worlds that he had a 100% pick/ban status BY PROFESSIONALS and won every single game he was let through. He was so stupidly broken I can't believe you're defending it. If by "people" you mean even professionals, then yes, people whined about it.

DaNinadApr 29, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Because if you put your adc alone toplane they will get absolutely decimated. They have a support for a reason.

Dude, Morkaiser was so ridiculous season 5 worlds that he had a 100% pick/ban status BY PROFESSIONALS and won every single game he was let through. He was so stupidly broken I can't believe you're defending it. If by "people" you mean even professionals, then yes, people whined about it.

Vayne Quinn ???

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20171 votes

Hell weren't people rocking Corki and Cait up there too in some tournaments?

GankedByWindowsApr 30, 20171 votes

Not that I've seen. I don't watch all regions, but at least in the major ones they don't.

Tobias BracknerApr 30, 20171 votes

Not recently but a while back they were putting marksmen in every lane.

And that's not getting into people like Yi who may not be marksmen but carry all the same.

GankedByWindowsApr 30, 20172 votes

If you look when that was done, it was because of one of two things (and most of the time both)

They're either not traditional adcs (Graves, Quinn, Urgot)
They were just overpowered and had the numbers to make it work (Runeglaive Ezreal, Corki mid, Graves top)

Tobias BracknerApr 30, 20171 votes

This disproves nothing about "it's cool to just throw anyone bot w/ a supp"

Your post has no meaning.

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20172 votes

Your comments about pros and Mordekaiser assumes that I think pros actually know how to play the game.

GankedByWindowsApr 30, 20172 votes

You should. They're the very best at the game. If they don't know how to play it, nobody does.

Tobias BracknerApr 30, 20171 votes

They may be the best of the people who play the game but they are not masters of the game.

It'd be more accurate to say they have excellent individual mechanics.

GankedByWindowsApr 30, 20171 votes

They're the best at macro play too. They literally have analysts live with them to make sure they have the best macro play possible. That is why when lane swapping was the meta, all the professional teams were able to do it but solo queue players couldn't.

Tobias BracknerApr 30, 20171 votes

No, they don't have the best macro play. Watch tournaments sometime, you'll see a lot of really garbage calls.

GankedByWindowsApr 30, 20172 votes

They do. Just because they aren't perfect doesn't mean they aren't the best. Especially when you consider the higher level teams. They're definitely not going to miss something as fundamental as what you're suggesting. Don't get me wrong, its fun to do and can work in a solo queue setting or in flex with some buddies, but isn't optimal.

AbiwonKenabiApr 30, 20172 votes

I regularly watch competitive and I do see some bad calls. However, that doesn't change the fact that the pros are still the best at the game in all aspects. Sure, some are better than others, and there are bad calls now and then, but the worst pro is still going to know more and be more skilled than 99.99% of League players. Including probably every commenter in this thread.

AbiwonKenabiApr 29, 20171 votes

Yeah, said what I was going to say. Ziggs lanes well against other ranged Champs and kills towers very quickly. So he fills a pseudo marksman role while providing alternative damage with his AOE magic damage.

If you notice, they also ran Lulu, Zilean--who gave massive speed boosts to Ziggs and could rush up to towers proc his passive/Sheen--and Graves, who provides a ton of AOE AD and helps shred towers.

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20171 votes

Yeah and there are plenty of other ranged mages. Hell the majority of mages are ranged and are perfectly happy with being botlane.

GankedByWindowsApr 29, 20172 votes

The difference is that none of them have the tower destruction power that Ziggs provides

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20171 votes

But they have plenty strong tower destruction since dmg to towers scales w/ AP.

GankedByWindowsApr 29, 20172 votes

Its not enough to compete with adcs, especially before they get that AP. Ziggs has two special ways of boosting the tower damage through his passive and his W special mechanic.

Tobias BracknerApr 29, 20171 votes

So? It's still enough to destroy towers and push waves.

GankedByWindowsApr 30, 20172 votes

Its not enough to compete, that is the issue. You're ceding a very big push advantage by doing so that you're not making up in some other way like Ziggs does.

Tobias BracknerApr 30, 20171 votes

You know there is more to a lane than just pushing, right?

GankedByWindowsApr 30, 20172 votes

There absolutely is. Which is why I said that the lane matchups don't really give you any benefit because the enemy also can match it, plus you're losing dragon pressure and in the case of non ziggs non adc bot, you lost pushing power inside lane and outside.

AbiwonKenabiApr 29, 20172 votes

As Bambei says, Ziggs just shreds towers. Not saying nothing other than Marksmen would work bot, just saying Ziggs has a very compelling reason to take over a Marksman (literally blows up towers, as good if not better than adcs)