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New Cinderhulk Jungle Enchantment!

junglerboy16··29 votes·8,767 views
2/27 PBE Update

First things first: That Cho'gath retexture looks fantastic!

Ok, now that that is out of the way, I would like to redirect your attention to the section about the enchantment that will be replacing the Juggernaut enchantment: The Cinderhulk.

This item seems like Riot is actually getting something right again, for a few reasons: They are adding a tank specific boost in clearing power through the AoE ramping burn, They are improving jungle tank scaling with the % bonus HP amp (a la SotAG), they made a build path that allows tanks to get more clear power sooner through the new Bami's Cinder item, and they reduced the dependency of tanks on item 3713 by virtue of the AoE effect of the enchant.

Additionally, It sounds like they intend to make the Gromp buff scale off of health somehow, to help tanks out even more. There aren't any numbers up on that was of yet, but I am still eagerly anticipating these changes.

What are your opinions on this? Will this bring tanks in line? will it be too little to really change anything? Are there bigger fundamental issues that need to be addressed?

EDIT: something I didn't notice that is actually a big deal, Cinderhulk's AoE burn only activates in combat, so you won't randomly aggro baron or dragon when warding, or other annoying situations where you don't want to proc the damage.

98 Comments

ABlueQuaker6 votes

I personally don't like that it provides no CDR. You're effectively trading damage from abilities with damage from its passive.

4nth0l0gy2 votes

I actually don't really like this new item. The lack of CDR is one reason.

On top of that, they reduced the health granted by the new jungle tank item a full 30%. Sure, you now get 25% bonus health scaling with it, but that's a big hit early, which is when tanks typically struggle the most.

It ALSO costs 1000 gold for Bami's Cinder, making it the most expensive build component of any jungle item.

The extra damage for farming is nice, but we've been saying how necessary that is for months. Sunfire passive in combat is helpful early game, but I still feel shortchanged. Riot seems afraid to give tanks any reasonable amount of combat power early game.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

The bonus health scaling also should work with the new jungling item, so you get roughly 437 health from the item when you take the passive into account. If you just bought a Giants Belt after the jungle item, you would already have about 32 more health than you do with the current Jungle item and it just gets better from there.

The Brutalizer costs 1337 gold. Further, all the jungle items are priced so that the total gold required to get them is the same. All of them equal out to a cost of 2250. So regardless of whether the price of the components goes up, the total cost for the item won't change unless the component was abhorrently expensive.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

I don't get Riot sometimes. I finally start using Juggernaut and now it's getting changed. With the 10% CDR it was a nice substitute for Spirit Visage until late game.

MrBuffington5 votes

Cinderhulk seems freaking awesome. The thing I like about it is that you no longer have to go for Sunfire, you can just opt straight into Randuins after finishing your jungle item (the immolate effect is weaker at first but ramps up sort of aggressively to be stronger in the middle of a fight), not to mention the return of the 25% bonus health (hello Sion). Not going for Sunfire also frees up a slot for stuff like Righteous Glory (one of my favorite items that I never get to buy). I also like how you can go for Bami's Cinder without finishing Sunfire (if you're playing a non-jungler tank or an off-tank jungler), so you can get some of the Sunfire effect without having to invest in the full item.

Regarding the other changes:

  • I agree Cho's retexture looks great.
  • I'm glad they're actually buffing specific junglers too since the Cinderhulk effects don't really help with the first clear
  • I thought Xin was actually okay already, but I guess buffs are okay?
  • I'm glad about the Nidalee changes; nerfs her jungle clear (traps and pounce resets were a huge portion of her clear) which was still pretty fast, without really affecting lane Nidalee (which is where I primarily play Nidalee)
  • Gragas buffs are nice, I think he has larger problems but they're nice
  • Unsure about Skarner buffs; I agree it's good for him but I've seen some people comment that it's not really what he needs either
  • Also unsure about Zac buffs; I guess it's good his ganks will be better? I don't play him either, lol
  • Vi nerfs are kind of sad since I just picked her up, but I understand that they're sort of necessary
  • Volibear buffs are kind of cool, I think he's kind of a strange champion but he does a surprising amount of damage already with his W, nice that he can use that more to clear
  • Azir buffs are good I suppose; I still think his kit has absurd potential but no one can play him maximally so it doesn't really matter I guess?
  • Lissandra nerfs are good
  • Tristana buffs are pretty cool, nice that they're emphasizing the windowed aspect of her power instead of just giving her straight buffs
  • Urgot changes are nice I guess, don't play him much either
Messaiga5 votes

About Vi, she totally needed nerfs. She doesn't deserve to be dumpstered but she is very strong right now (base off of 23% pick rate, one of the highest win rates in the game). As for Skarner, that's very true. The buffs aren't exactly what he needs (the Q change is kind of a simplification of his damage since 58 is an awkward number). I'd gladly exchange that damage increase on his E for something else like: Fracture applies 2 stacks of Crystal Venom (instead of one).

This basically means if he lands his E and uses his Q he can proc his passive immediately (making it easy to get the bonus damage on Ulti or the stun in early ganks).

MrBuffington1 votes

re: Vi -snip-

Oh, I understand she's one of the overbearing picks right now, just selfishly she's one of my favorite champions so it's sad to see her nerfed (especially since I really liked that she had such high base MS) :3. Still, hopefully her ban rate drops a bit so I can actually play her :P

Thanks for the insight on Skarner though!

Messaiga1 votes

I'm glad they've put forward the effort to make the jungle better overall.

I'm afraid that some champions are either going to left behind, or the opposite where this change (with the new Cinderhulk) makes some of the tank jungler's nearly as strong as current Vi/J4/Lee.

I'm not entirely sure what the result of all these changes will be so I guess we'll have to see what happens once all this gets live (though this is the VERY beginning of the new pbe cycle). My guess is that if nothing changed we'd see all this stuff go to live in around 2 weeks.

And also I share that opinion on Vi somewhat, I remember a little over a year ago (when I was a mere newbie) that she was one of my favorite champs. She didn't hold my attention very long but I laid my eye on Skarner a few months back and it's still stuck there. Glad people can find champs they appreciate rather than just whoever can carry them up in ranked.

MrBuffington1 votes

Yea, with Vi I don't mind so much cause unless they seriously butcher her, I'll still play her since I actually enjoy playing her, not just playing her because she's strong right now.

I also want to see how it pans out. I don't think the old Golem made enough of a dent to really shake up the jungle, but hopefully with the larger changes, Cinderhulk will have a breakthrough. I usually hold clear speed at a high value when choosing junglers, which is why Amumu and Udyr are the tank junglers I play, but maybe I'll be able to expand a bit more

Messaiga1 votes

May I recommend Cho? His early clears aren't the fastest but once he gets his Ultimate he can nom his way through the jungle easily, and your ganks can be real scary if you land your Q.

MrBuffington1 votes

Cho is an interesting champ. I'll have to try him again, but I'm not a huge fan of his kit tbh. I was thinking more Sej or Naut or Rammus.

LoLKiru3 votes

I'd imagine the biggest problem for some tanks (if not all of them) will still simply be their first clear, where Gromp's poison won't really be able to help them (since it scales off of bonus health, of which you have little to none at the start of the game), and before they can get their brand new shiny item to help clear faster.

junglerboy166 votes

I agree that the first clear will still be really punishing for a lot of tanks, but I think that the biggest issue that jungle tanks face currently is the mid game, where they haven't scaled into their late game, but they also can no longer rely on their strong early damage. The biggest way this should help jungle tanks is that instead of getting stuck with a rather useless pile of flat health components, the tanks will now have improved clear before getting the full enchantment. I wish it would deal a little more base damage, but it is a start in the right direction for sure.

GnomeDigest1 votes

{quoted}

I agree that the first clear will still be really punishing for a lot of tanks, but I think that the biggest issue that jungle tanks face currently is the mid game, where they haven't scaled into their late game, but they also can no longer rely on their strong early damage. The biggest way this should help jungle tanks is that instead of getting stuck with a rather useless pile of flat health components, the tanks will now have improved clear before getting the full enchantment. I wish it would deal a little more base damage, but it is a start in the right direction for sure.

Except the primary reason tanks are not scaled into mid-late game is because their first 2-3 clears are so god awful that they fall too far behind to every catch up as a tank jungler. God forbid they get invaded.

By the time help arrives from the new item you are already hopelessly behind. Tank itemization is actually pretty decent. The problem is getting to the point where you can buy any of those nice items.

Kitten of Evil6 votes

I'm glad they're at least trying to buff the tank junglers rather than nerfing all junglers in the hope of dethroning King Lee and Queen Vi.

I'll withhold judgment until I see these new changes in action, but it seems like it could be promising.

Yandere Carry3 votes

if this does NOT stack with sunfire cape it will be fucking useless.

Zazusha7 votes

It wont

Both are "Unique passive - Immolate"

Yandere Carry1 votes

Then it's worthless.

Tis a nice day4 votes

I can say the same for a particular someone.

Yandere Carry1 votes

Oh I get it. You sure are funny.

Tis a nice day1 votes

Thanks!

Variks the Loyal18 votes

It'll deal more damage than Sunfire Cape when you've been in combat a bit.

Depending on how long that lasts, it'll make clearing much better than Sunfire. Imagine stacking the damage on a small camp, and doing to the big camp quickly before the damage buff falls off.

At level 6, Sunfire deals 31 damage per second. When stacked up at level 6. Cinderhulk will deal 42. And that threshold only increases with level.

It's a good alternative, and Sunfire will be the laning version.

Yandere Carry1 votes

If the two don't stack they aren't useful. Sunfire cape isn't worth getting unless you deal like no damage.

Variks the Loyal11 votes

It's not meant to deal a lot of damage, it's meant to help clear camps.

It's a net buff for tanks, because no longer will you need to choose between Randuin's/Frozen Heart and Sunfire. You get the best of both.

Yandere Carry1 votes

not worth.

Variks the Loyal9 votes

More worth than Juggernaut.

Yandere Carry1 votes

and...? That doesn't mean that a bad option is suddenly a good one because the others are even worse.

Variks the Loyal5 votes

You don't seem to understand the ramifications of the item. What makes it bad? Because it doesn't stack with Sunfire? You realize dealing 100 magic damage per second to everything around you is a lot, right?

Tanks aren't supposed to be able to deal tons of damage. And if they do, that damage isn't dealt fast, it's over time. But they make up for it by being tanky (Duh), and bringing peel for the ones who do do damage.

Most tanks in the jungle nowadays build Juggernaut, Randuins/Frozen Heart, Spirit Visage/Banshees, Warmogs, and other tank items. With no damage to be dealt. This is a net buff because not only can you get the Sunfire aura essentially for free, but the 25% bonus health will amplify all of your other hp items.

Big Bang Bob7 votes

this guy is trolling. he'll never give in to your logic.

logique1 votes

i was actually curious about this. elaborate if you have thoughts.

since it does have a ramp up time, depending on how long that is, it is possible cinder does less damage than sunfire cape during a fight depending on how long the fight it is.

Now I don't believe sunfire cape is gold efficient (please correct me if I'm wrong), so its an even worse item now for tanks if they go cinder. It's one less optimal option for building amor and health if I'm correct.

perhaps im underestimating the power but im not a fan that the passives are the same from a first look.

aaronconlin5 votes

Have you ever played a tank jungler? Sunfire cape is useful, and will be used to help lane tanks clear minion waves, and Cinderhulk will be useful, used to clear jungle camps.

The main thing I'm excited about is not being required to build sunfire cape in the jungle on tanks anymore, and I can now use that slot on something better

Yandere Carry1 votes

now you're just required to build sort-of-sunfire-cape

Wheatloaf6 votes

Sunfire cape cape combined with a late-game scaling mechanic. As opposed to the previous two giants belts and half a merc tread.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

Lol. Sion

Yandere Carry1 votes

oh bb pls

junglerboy161 votes

Sion with the Cinderhulk and the new group buff will return around 400 damage to enemies that attack him late game. That is hella scary indeed!

Kowe The Ewok3 votes

Finally a good jungle change, after the 6 month of continious nerfing.

Sadly no love for Ammumu and Rammus... And the Skarner changes feel like a joke - 2 more damage on Q - really?

At least the Enchantment is nice...

Messaiga1 votes

Skarner really didn't need much help so I'm glad they didn't buff his Q much (and instead just made it a number that wasn't so random). I'd have preferred a utility buff on his E rather than damage but whatever.

I do agree that Amumu and Rammus need help. I fear they'll be left behind if they don't get changes later in this current cycle or the next patch directly after 5.5. I think they may just be slightly afraid of them becoming as powerful as they were last season. I actually forget how Rammus had such a huge win rate for a while.

Killstrado2 votes

Amumu is going to be so damn strong now with the new item lol what are you talking about

Messaiga1 votes

I personally think that Sejuani will do the same thing Amumu does, but better. We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

Killstrado2 votes

AOE junglers get two extra buffs on pbe Currently, I sense a great change in team comps and I'm excited, not to mention I love playing tanks and gromp is my favorite camp/buff before the change so it looks promising to me

Messaiga1 votes

Yeah, it'll be nice to finally see tanks in the spotlight. They'll make games much more enjoyable.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

I would be okay with losing some of the bonus % hp (Maybe down to 20%) if they put Tenacity on it.

Then it would be amazing, instead of great.

aaronconlin1 votes

While the tenacity was great, it'll give tanks more of a reason to build elixir of iron

Sirsir2 votes

The elixir tenacity stacks with the item and mastery tenacity.

Jungle Lux God2 votes

Just this PBE push has got me so freaking hyped for patch 5.5.

Buffs to my two favorite junglers (Nautilus and Skarner), and a new jungle item that looks dope as hell.

In my opinion, Cinderhulk looks like a version of Sunfire Cape that doesn't give armor, as by itself Cinderhulk gives almost as much health as Sunfire Cape (350, plus 25% bonus health gives ~438 health, which is only 12 health off from what Sunfire Cape gives), but the health will also scale throughout the game and the passive is strictly better because it only applies in combat. This also doesn't include the fact that it costs less (around 400 less than Sunfire unless you decide to switch jungle items) and the fact that you have Smite bonuses.

I feel like these changes are designed to push tanks almost exclusively as junglers and supports, where they can consistently help their team throughout the game through ganks and/or lane pressure.

I also feel like the Cinderhulk enchant also gives a good idea of what the enchants should look like: items with stats enough to support a form of play in the jungle while also having a passive that makes it really worth picking up. Before, only Devourer really supported this kind of gameplay, while Warrior had the raw stats to push out the other jungle enchants.

Waffins1 votes

"Buffs to my two favorite junglers (Nautilus and Skarner), and a new jungle item that looks dope as hell."

Slight setback to AP nautilus fans.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

If anything, AP Naut had its burst exchanged for a crap ton of sustained damage, which isn't great because the point of AP Naut is to burst your enemy.

However, it is worth that max rank E had its cooldown decreased by 60% while its AP ratio only got reduced by 40%, so technically you are getting more damage out of your AP in counting cooldown and damage, especially when you account for the base damages not getting touched.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

I feel like these changes are designed to push tanks almost exclusively as junglers and supports, where they can consistently help their team throughout the game through ganks and/or lane pressure.

Sunfire will still exist, and its build path now has Bami's in place of the Giant's Belt. That could have some interesting benefits for tanky tops too.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

I agree with you that tanky tops could really benefit from Bami's as a part of Giant's Belt's build path, but I think there is a little bit of disparity between the tanks I'm talking about moving mostly to jungle and support positions and the tanks you are talking about coming top.

With the tanks I'm referring to, I'm referring to the kinds of tanks that build full tank and focus on crap tons of CC. These kinds of champs have historically struggled top because they lacked trading potential, and I don't think these kinds of champs will get buffed so hard by Bami's that we might see them go top lane and succeed with the exception of the top lane tanks we see now.

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