Guinsoo's Rageblade is getting cut??

junglerboy16··43 votes·5,809 views

@Riot Preseason Item Team, I saw all of the itemization changes like the regeneration stat changes, the new items, the redo of the jungle, etc. as I was reading around yesterday. I looked back at the list of removed items (jungle items and old elixirs and atma's) and I guess I missed that YOU REMOVED GUINSOO'S RAGEBLADE! this item is so cool and is amazing on anyone that can use its stats well, but you are just straight up removing it?!? that just doesn't make any sense. It has a really great niche as one of the strongest dueling items in the game, (idk why nobody uses it tbh) and you didn't even say, "we're taking it out" or "we're going to rework it" you just up and axed it when nobody was looking. What is even your reason for removing it? Please at least give a reason when you remove items, so that we aren't all left hanging without answers.

Atma's I understand, it wasn't really cohesive as an item (early game item with a late game power spike and random stats?), the jungle items I get because you are redoing that, the elixirs for the same reason, but Guinsoo's Rageblade has no reason to get cut! It has amazing usefulness for any hybrid champ (Kayle, Jax, Akali, Poppy, and Xin Zhao in particular) and fits very well in it's role (even hybrid carry casters like Corki and Varus rock Rageblade).

Please don't kill any more of these hybrid champs or items! your game gets more and more homogenized and boring each time you do.

133 Comments

AHeroNamedHawke30 votes

Gotta remove every item that isn't Zhonya's/IE/Sunfire Cape cuz creating options would be like effort and stuff

stutzand16 votes

I honestly used Guinsoo's and Atma's situationally. But, if they are removing these... why would they leave Executioner's Calling.

insaiyanbacca2 votes

because its useful on quite few champs against picks such as DrMundo with extreme amounts of healing and it also works on what seems like riot's favorite role adc

Junkο2 votes

Guinsoo is also useful on Jax I even used it on my splitpush build for him

Ale non è male2 votes

Jax is one of the really few characters on which Gunblade is better than Rageblade, to be honest

Junkο2 votes

I buy Rageblade instead because i also buy Botrk, which shares the CD of the active with Gunblade, so it's better IMO.

Ale non è male4 votes

Rageblade is worse than Gunblade on Jax because you could often face enemies that will try to poke from distance to avoid Jax to farm and get gold for his itemization and also to keep the distance o be safer from his leap + stun combo. That's why you could often be in a situation when you as Jax will not be able to process safely Rageblade on minions before jumping on the enemies. So you will jump on enemies with an unprocessed rageblade which is weaker than Gunblade Also, Gunblade offer more AD which is better for an AA reliant champ, LS which again synergize with Jax being an AA reliant champ and with BoTRK damage and lifesteal, and offer an active that deals a burts of damage AND slow the enemy to help you in chasing the enemy and keep autoattacking them that stacks with randuin's active which is more useful than rageblade surge passive for Jax, since Jax has no problem in sustain himself in 1vs1 melee fights with his great AS through passive, lifesteal out of BoTRK and tankiness with the ulti and the itemization

Jryiah12 votes

Without rageblade there will be only 1 hybrid item left. Realistically TF is not a hybrid item with meager 30 AP.

Long Dong Wukong4 votes

I don't understand why they suddenly became averse to hybrid champions.

Because they'll still do some damage to you if you only itemize against once stat? Well that's the entire point.

Tortferngatr1 votes

No, it's because standard hybrid items have to be too strong for hybrids if you want anyone besides hybrids (who SHOULD be building a combination of AD and AP items) to consider picking them up. If you want them to ONLY work on hybrids without making them mandatory on hybrids (which would defeat the point of having a hybrid champion in the first place), then you have to make them weak to the point the hybrids might as well build Last Whisper and Void Staff and use only one of their scaling damage stats anyway.

Sire Hippington2 votes

i see not that big problem in tweaking them in a way that makes them more or less madatory on chamos that can utilize all stats they give well without beeing broken. all that hybrid-items are missing is a better way to scale into the late without giving an overpowered midgame, and there are suggestions for that, like an items that gives u a % off ur ap as ad and a % of ur ad as ap(old kayle passive) This item couldn'T really be abused by non hybrid champs, and it would allow hybrid items to scale in the late without beeing to strong in midgame. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Ed4GHfgk-we-need-a-true-hybrid-dps-item-foe-lategame

mtman3182 votes

Though it's probably wishful thinking, I hope they (if the change is final) put the "bonus AS+AP bonus per basic attack" passive on Hextech Gunblade. It synergizes with its active perfectly, so it makes sense, and it will give gunblade a needed (in my opinion) buff as well.

Zionga05 votes

And buff Akali in the end? No. Bloody. Way.

Motajo2 votes

Solution: gut Akali first, then make hybrid itemization a thing

junglerboy162 votes

This^ Akali makes hybrid a bad thing, rework her and then give us back hybrid champs and items!

Tortferngatr1 votes

On PBE, Xypherous gave a pretty good explanation as to why hybrid items can't coexist with hybrid champions (in a game with mostly non-hybrid champions) without either having to be underpowered. (here's the Rioter Rundown, since specific links to posts seem to not be working for me properly)

Here is the specific quote:

It doesn't seem like hybrid items add much to the game because it seems to flatten hybrid characters entirely and lock them to a small subset of items.

Let me walk through this a bit:

Let's say no hybrid items exist - but the character is a hybrid character and all their skills have AD and AP ratios.

This hybrid character can then build any item in the game and benefit because it doesn't "waste" any statistics from any AD or AP item. This character could build Zhonya's and Bloodthirster, knowing that their DPS would go up. They can't build crit - but they could effortlessly pick up a lot of mage utility items and sustained AD items.

However, add hybrid items into the game, like gunblade. Do you expect the item to be better on hybrid characters than non-hybrid? Well, then it has to give both AD and AP - in better ratios than most other items. Inevitably, what this does is bind the above character to only building that hybrid item.

If that character is OP with that hybrid item, the character gets nerfed to accommodate for that hybrid item and the character is balanced around that hybrid item existing -or- you nerf the hybrid item and then you get to the point of why did you even add that in the first place?

So what happens? Well, now - said character loses the ability to build non-hybrid items when hybrid items are strong. It basically takes a character that could work well with any item in the game and collapses them down to whatever hybrid items you've made. The strength of hybrid characters is that literally no item is bad on them and they can forge builds that are way more powerful than most people can imagine.

When you make decent hybrid items, you basically destroy these builds and lock them into your hybrid items as they are by default, the most efficient build path. It gets worse when down the line, if the character gets rebalanced assuming the purchase of hybrid items as now they are locked into the item's existence.

This is why I've continuously stated my preference for Kayle's old AD --> AP and AP --> AD conversion passive. She could build whatever she wanted and she always ended up as a hybrid character that needed to use all her spells and her attacks in order to succeed. I think our current 'hybrid' characters tend to build either AD or AP because nothing in their kits forces them or causes them to benefit from both AD and AP compared to the power of % penetration.

The more you focus your damage type into a single type of damage, the more powerful % penetration becomes and thus, it's mostly pointless to not focus on a certain type of damage.

That said, I don't work on champions at the moment so these kinds of thoughts are mostly theoretical at best.

It isn't just Akali that's an issue (although I did get a facetious "The answer to "why not" is always Akali" out of him. :P)

The issue is that when hybrid items are strong, ALL hybrid champions have to be balanced around needing to build hybrid itemization (instead of being supremely versatile--which is arguably half the point to playing a hybrid champion.) When hybrid CHAMPIONS are strong, hybrid items have to be weak...and then the hybrids just build AD or AP because Last Whisper or Void Staff scale their damage better than building AD+AP both could ever dream to.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

I think that logic is very flawed and mostly lazy:

They just would have to make sure each build is situational. A Champ could supportive/Aoe on AP, DPS/Single-Target on AD and e.g. a tad bit of both with a very strong mid- ,but a worse lategame as tradeoff as hybrid.

The more you focus your damage type into a single type of damage, the more powerful % penetration becomes and thus, it's mostly pointless to not focus on a certain type of damage.

this pretty much makes sure the there´s a trade-off lategame for hybrid-builds, so I don´t see problems for allowing them to be strong in their specific niche.

mtman3181 votes

And buff Akali in the end? No. Bloody. Way.

She's more reliant on burst, so I doubt it would make that much of a difference on her--especially now that they took out her W resistances--unless it's a pro Akali player, in which case you probably would have lost anyway. This would be more of a buff for sustained hybrid builds like Hybrid MF, Varus, Kayle, and Jax (okay those last two would be scary, so if they did put this passive on gunblade, they should nerf them somewhat--at least their Q's).

Tortferngatr1 votes

Why is locking Jax and Kayle into building Gunblade a good thing?

mtman3182 votes

Did I ever say they had to be locked into building it? If nerfing them is a problem, just nerf some of the numbers on Gunblade instead (probably the active damage at least).

Xypherous is using the same lazy, faulty logic that Narrative used when retconning the Institute of War and Summoners out of the lore: "We don't want to bother balancing it, working with it, etc, so we're just going to delete it instead."

Zionga011 votes

Blame that one forum-goer, to whom Xypherous has replied about getting rid of hybrid items.

I guess the lesson here is that only items that are bought matter. They may be complete garbage, like Sunfire, but as long as someone is buying them, Riot is not gonna bother touching them.

googlemaster10 votes

sunfire is garbage.... what?

TauNoob14 votes

It has worse stats than Randuin's, it's passive just got nerfed a bit ago, Randuin's is better for sticking to carries, and Randuin's only costs about 300 more gold.

That Gay Friend7 votes

That doesn't make it bad though. If someone wants even more armour outside of Randuin's than Sunfire becomes a good choice. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO SEE THE SAD FACE OF Rammus ?

Pandemic Punch4 votes

That doesn't make it bad though. If someone wants even more armour outside of Randuin's than Sunfire becomes a good choice. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO SEE THE SAD FACE OF Rammus ?

Agreed. Sunfire is very good on pure tanks. The longer the other team ignores you in teamfights, the more damage they all take from you. This can be especially bad for their ADC if you are harassing them.

junglerboy162 votes

It's also pretty good on MR pen Malphite, Sunfire>Abyssal Scepter is pretty strong with his other AOE magic damage.

Zionga01 votes

Bad stats, bad passive damage, bad passive range. Don't know about you, but when I play tanks, I never get to stay on priority targets for more than 3 seconds at best. Pay over 2500 gold for something like 80 magic damage? Well, how about no.

If you can get away with building Sunfire, you can get away with building pure damage as well. Like Liandry. At least Liandry's damage scales properly.

Ale non è male1 votes

If you look at how damage mitigation works, you can see how on a full tank build get the extra damage from Sunfire aura is more profitable than get 20-30 extra armor from a different major armor item

Zionga01 votes

Some damage in full tank builds no longer works, this isn't Season 3 anymore. There's a reason why the likes of Zac have disappeared from the competetive scene. If you want to deal damage, you have to build damage, or just be a meat wall and hope your team can do the rest. Sunfire is crappy at doing damage, and it's crappy at being a tank item. Hence, no reason to get it, outside of splitpushing, maybe.

Ale non è male2 votes

Tanks that scale with AP have some alternative choice for tankiness + damage, as the Liandry/Rylai you quoted, but AA/AS/AD reliant tanks? What are their options to get tankiness + a bit of damage? Frozen mallet and its pitiful 30 AD? Atma's that require however to build health(which is discouraged from S2 and is almost going to be deleted)? Trinity Force which benefit little the champs that does not scale with AP anyway? The Black Cleaver that has only 200 health? Thornamil which doesn't deal damage against team with a balanced7strong Ap composition and/or doesn't use much AA? Sunfire IS the best option available for tankiness + damage for champs that does not scale with AP, there is very very little to debate. That's why there is a place for it in the game and that's why many people pick it even though after the changes its damage output has been nerfed early to mid game

Zionga01 votes

What are their options to get tankiness + a bit of damage?

Welp, did you even read my comment? You don't build like that anymore, the masteries discourage it. Back in Season 3 low-tier penetration masteries ensured your base damage (and by extension, Sunfire's damage) would scale overtime. This is not the case anymore. As such, you either need to build pure damage items, which synergize with themselves, or build pure durability, and hope that you can still win by being a meat wall. By building a mix of the two, you're essentially hurting yourself, since you really won't get either.

Ale non è male2 votes

If you keep not listening and remain stubbornly with wrong ides is your fault. Look back at my first reply and at how damage mitigation work. For champs IS better to get some damage at expense of renouncing to some defense that would be superfluous, as over a certain point 30 extra armor reduce only a little amount of damage

And I don't see Bruiser as class being in trouble(champs that itemize a mix of damage and defense), so your argument seem to fail again

Zionga01 votes

*>*refers to the old "diminishing returns on resits" fallacy as true *>*anecdotal evidence in response to a factual statement about the masteries *>*calls me stubborn

Exquisite, absolutely exquisite.

Ale non è male2 votes

It's exquisite how you aren't capable to see to how it's better for a champ at a certain point to sacrifice armor for damage because of how damage mitigation sistem works, and how instead to answer to my points you keep trying to dodge them

Narasimha5 votes

I mean, that kind of makes sense. An item that is bought only in the most extreme of cases is such an outlier that it may as well not exist. Its just far more efficient to remove and replace it at that point than try to fix it.

junglerboy165 votes

Well, I hope they offer a replacement soon, because I will really miss it, it is just such a memorable item to me, I love the idea of going manmode and raging through an enemy with its stacking passive and Surge passive...

BeatzBoyFTW8 votes

Meanwhile, Sword of the Divine & Executioner's Calling. But fine Riot! Just remove Guinsoo's & Atma's like you want......

336KMlmYm94 votes

The items they are removing are under utilized. But this makes no sense. If anything the game needs expanded itemization options. Removing the only AD/Crit/Armor item, even if it needs some tweaking, is just removing a niche item. Same thing with Guinsoo. Hybrid itemization needs more options, not less.

BrandNameZombie3 votes

RIP ap varus
item 3089 Varus

ceaselessphantom3 votes

RIP ap varus
item 3089 Varus

When did ap Varus even get that item? I am pretty sure deathfire and Nashor's were more important to him.

junglerboy162 votes

the AS synergized well with him, and the way it got stronger the longer you fought synergized well with his play patterns where he would prefer longer duels to get more blight stacks. Also, in team fights it helped him ramp up in damage quickly since his on hit got stronger and faster every attack.

Zanphyra3 votes

I wish riot rather than removing these items made them up to par so the champions that should get them do more often.

Would make the game more interesting.

Ale non è male4 votes

Listen to me, guinsoo is yet powerful enough for some champs. This is not a game of an item being underpowered or underpowered, here they are eliminationg an item that has no real problem. if people don't build it on champs that benefit from it it'speople fault, not rageblade not being good enough

Ulquiorra9952 votes

Variety? Can't have that in this game. Go back to rushing IE/BotRK on Varus and MF and Zhonya/Athene's on TF and Kayle like everyone else.

Tortferngatr1 votes

To be fair, the cookie cutter items are still more efficient for damage purposes than Guinsoo's.

Sire Hippington4 votes

that is exactly the problem that should get adresses rather than removing guinsoo's. If hybrid items are not more efficient on hybrid scaling champs than a full ad or full ap builts, than thats a problem.

Tortferngatr1 votes

And if they are, they tend to be mandatory on them. That, of course, is still a problem.

Earl Eulrich4 votes

well...less so than Items like IE on ADCs or Rabadons/Chalice on Mages. If "mandatory" items would be a problem for Riot they would have to change everything.

Tortferngatr1 votes

It still would be effectively just as mandatory on them, and mandatory on champs meant to have more flexible builds.

Yes, I think that replacing all the hybrid items with an idea that gives Kayle's old passive would be a good idea, but that is not my choice to make and not where Riot's item diversification focus is currently present.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

Well, you certainly don´t make things more flexible by taking choices away. If certain Items would feel to mandatory then some scalings would ahve to be adjusted. I think currently the balancing of hybrid items is fairly good actually. Even on someone like Akali you can choose for a more tanky-built with trinity+gunblade+rylais+2fulldefenisves or for the all-out assassin with Lichbane, Rabadons and Zonias...and both are equaly effective in their niche on Akali if used in the right situation. Even Rageblade offers a really great powerspike and good dueling if you need it, but you pay for it with less slot-efficiency later on in the game. There are good tradoffs currently, I don´t see why they can´t just enhance it further.

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