The Reason Nasus Works...

junglerboy16··114 votes·7,719 views

And Darius, Garen, Morde, and Skarner won't.

(TL;DR: at the bottom for those in a rush)

First, we have NASUS. Nasus is one the most balanced champions in the games and successfully captures the "Juggernaut" archetype that Riot is aiming for with the newest set of changes to these other fighters. He has a large set of pros (great scaling damage, sustain, good split pushing and teamfighting, team utility, excellent durability, satisfying gameplay pattern and thematic) and a balanced set of cons (weak early game, can be shut down reasonably well, easily kited, immobile, low CC) which together make playing against him feel challenging but rewarding when you succeed in bullying him during lane phase to keep him down, while as Nasus, he has a distinct and satisfying gameplay pattern that requires a degree of skill and leads to big payoffs when you succeed. He is one of the best balanced, healthiest champions in the game since his pros and cons are clear, but there are ways for a skillful player to still work with and around them.

Now for DARIUS. In general, the changes to Darius are actually quite well done. They toned back his lane bully power by reducing Q's damage and made it easier to itemize against his early damage with armor, and they buffed his late game by giving him tools to both survive through a team fight so he can get off chain alts more reliably. they took a page from Nasus' book and gave Darius a natural way to achieve high late game damage through bloodrage and his true damage ultimate even when built for durability (which is a strength of Nasus that they emulated pretty well), while adding a bit more counterplay to his kit in the form of decreased mobility and slightly more telegraphed abilities. Overall, these all sound like positive changes, right? WRONG. They fail miserably in one extremely blatant way: Darius isn't, and shouldn't be a slow sluggish juggernaut to begin with! these changes will arguably make him much healthier to play as and against, but they are wildly off target for who Darius is. Nasus is an ancient demigod who attains super human levels of durability and damage at the cost of being sluggish like you would expect from a giant, Darius is a cunning, tactical fighter, nothing about him says slow. Deliberate and powerful would be one thing (which old Darius has, immobility and high impact) but downright sluggish and driven by brute rage is simply the opposite of who he is as a character. That's Sion's niche, the Noxian juggernaut with a giant axe who plods through a battlefield smashing all resistance. Darius is precise and calculated. This rework succeeds in terms of balance, but fails abysmally in terms of identity.

On to GAREN. When you think of Garen, you think of a loyal armored brute. Thematically, Garen is a perfect candidate for this style of rework, since he already feels like he ought to fit in alongside Nasus and Mundo as a super tanky late game damage threat. Garen's rework fails in almost the exact opposite fashion to Darius, since his thematic is perfect, but the execution is sloppy. Garen already offers excellent counterplay in the same way Nasus does, but more than half of the changes he received with this PBE patch have been nerfs to his kit in a way that makes him even more easily countered. The reason Nasus is such a successful champion is that he has very clear strengths and weaknesses, but those can also be played around by a skillful player, which allows his success case to feel rewarding. Garen's rework introduces needless complication and nerfs that cripple his ability to achieve anything in a teamfight. The "Villain" passive on his ultimate is genius, and adding that change along would have been all Garen needed to become unique and viable. The E nerf that removes Crit scaling and increases spin rate is understandable and still maintains the goal of giving him high innate damage so that he can get away with a single damage item into full tank (like Nasus and Mundo) and remain relevant (basically, it forces him to rely more on built-in damage than item damage). however, the W changes are nonsensical; killing units doesn't make a knight tankier, buying armor does, so the % increase actually makes much more sense on many levels. Tenacity after cleansing CC and gaining Damage reduction is Garen's only tool that gives him any chance to get anywhere near a target (and anyone who doesn't live under a rock knows that it is already hard as hell to get to a target with the tenacity still there). E's self slow has zero purpose in his kit. Nothing Nasus does hurts himself like this, in fact, his Wither is designed to be a soft gap closer of its own. Riot allowed their emphasis on immobility to spiral out of control. Karen does need a way to prevent him from spinning his lane opponent to death early game, and the simplest way to maintain that restriction without gutting his late game like this is to have the self slow decrease with champion level (starts at something like 30% at level one, decreasing by 5% at level 3/6/9/12/15/18 leaving him at 0% slow through minions late game). This would restrict his bullying without knee-capping him for the whole game. Also, nerving his passive makes no sense when you're whole goal is to emphasize his durability and juggernaut style. This rework should have been the pinnacle of this batch of changes, but the changes are dreadfully uninspired and so timid about his potential power that it handicaps him brutally before he can even get off the ground.

Up next, the Master of Metal, MORDEKAISER. I personally have always thought that Morde belongs in the niche of an extremely high damage/high durability bruiser following in the exact vein that Riot claims to want from these fighters, so I couldn't have been more excited when I saw him on the update page headed "Juggernauts". My disappointment with the changes can't really be explained. I've tried to keep an optimistic outlook on them, but the longer I look, the more I've realized that these changes fail extremely badly at what they are supposed to do.

  • First: Riot gave up on his solo laning and essentially banished him to bot lane. I love the idea of making a bruiser bot lane viable, but pushing him there at the expense of his solo laning is unforgivable. You also cannot hide behind the claim that champs like him are inherently unhealthy in a solo lane, because other champs also categorized as "High durability/damage, low mobility/CC" have been proven to work in extremely healthy ways before, notably champs like Nasus and Mundo. Saying he can't be healthy in a solo lane is an absolute copout that only the laziest game designer would ever fall back on.

  • Second: Riot took away/gutted everything about him that could make this duo lane gimmick work. Mordekaiser in theory is a genius pick for a bruiser bot lane since he has strong wave clear, sustain, and strong all in damage, which is exactly what he would need in order to be viable bot lane , since he could outpush a standard lane, sustain through ranged harass, and use his special minion exp bonus to outlevel his opponents for a better all in than before. The only problem is they gutted his MS (as if he weren't immobile enough), gutted his shield strength (unless you build super tanky, you have a pathetic max shield capacity), gutted his shield generation (unless you have a lot of damage, you don't get much shield, and the E shield generation buff does not do enough), gutted his waveclear (Q is no longer AoE, E has severely reduced damage, W is useless unless standing right by your support babysitter) they may have buffed his all in damage with Q (seriously, that thing deals astronomical amounts of damage) but drastically nerfed his actual all-in potential by nerving his burst and mobility (Q deals a lot of damage, but takes so many hits to deal that damage that it hardly matters. Where's Sword of the Divine when you need it?)

Mordekaiser's rework fails in execution. the premise is excellent, and the goal is fantastic, bu the changes that have actually been implemented are confused and counter effective to the point of making him even more unviable.

Lastly, we have SKARNER. Ok, show of hands, I can't be the only one who thinks live Skarner is already balanced, fun, and very unique, can I? I thought so. Skarner's rework fails on every level. Thematically, Skarner is a brutal and powerful fighter, not a slow, trudging juggernaut. Second, the across the board nerfs he's receiving are unwarranted and misguided. His "rework" boils down to Riot wanting to add "uniqueness" for uniqueness' sake, even when Skarner is already a very distinct champion (as others have mentioned, he's the "race-car Scorpion that drags unsuspecting victims away to their doom". Nothing about Skarner has ever been "slow and plodding" which is what "juggernaut" implies. Skarner has always been a speedy, sticky, DPS heavy fighter who utilizes his natural steroids to shred the enemy. He actually fits the archetype Riot wants better with NO changes than he does after this gutting. Scarer's rework may succeed thematically to a certain extent, but it does so at the cost of compromising his kit and identity while foisting an artificial identity as an area control jungler on him.

TL;DR: Nasus is a healthy, balanced, and fun example of a juggernaut because he has built in damage and tools to make it to late game, while having clear and natural counterplay in a way that requires skill and strategy from both teams. Darius rework succeeds in matching that play style (if the counterplay is a touch forced) but fails since he shouldn't be a juggernaut to begin with. Garen is a perfect candidate for this rework, but it was executed very poorly and there is now so much artificial counterplay and so many unintuitive and arbitrary changes that it fails. Morde is theoretically perfect for the role Riot is trying to push him towards, but they failed in that they simply gave up on his solo laning, pigeon holing him into bot lane, and then proceeded to gut everything about him that made bot lane Morde a redeemable idea. Skarner succeeds thematically, but does so at the cost of a healthy, balanced, and very fun kit in exchange for a champion that is now a liability to his team without offering rewarding strategic play.

182 Comments

SlytherinUmbreon57 votes

I'm going to sit here and wait for people to complain about Nasus. http://media.giphy.com/media/GjYjLvGErsggg/giphy.gif

Robert Smith18 votes

The only unfair part is if you both never leave lane he will always beat you. Other than that not much

Renegade Angel956 votes

It's not even that, it's that people who pick him desire the game to last a long time. You're not doing anything difficult at all except hoping your team can hold on long enough to where it doesn't matter. I hate that champion. As someone who plays only normals these days I hate seeing him, because he's not even fun, so why play him in normals? So you can sit up top alone pressing q every few seconds laughing to yourself about how awesome you are? That's not fun, that's sad.

AmazingGoat5 votes

I find it fun. Shrug.

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

You must really love laning and farming. I play tons of ARAM just to avoid the laning.

ChaoticPinecone14 votes

its less unfair, and more unfun. it just asks for a dull game.

Zenthon Prime13 votes

Yeah, Nasus is balanced, but really boring/annoying to play against.

LICENSED HOOKER6 votes

{quoted}

its less unfair, and more unfun. it just asks for a dull game.

I give you Yorick

Silent Pace12 votes

[deleted]

HighH114 votes

When you consider that Annie Ekko Zed Yasuo Riven Vayne Katarina Kalista Fizz exist yes and BTW I can feel the downvotes already

Cloud Potato4 votes

I won't but considering there's over 120 champions in the game listing 9 that are worse than Nasus would still put Nasus in the top 10 worst balanced champions, which is the complete opposite of the quote.

TheJinxedOne2 votes

havent heard any Leblanc complaints

3TWarrior4 votes

nasus is balanced but he makes the game unfun to play because he's a champ that you have to babysit and pay exclusive attention to so he doesn't last hit with his Q, otherwise he'll just break towers and champs left and right

The Soulforged5 votes

He has a "weak" early game. He sits and farms his q, if you get him low before around lv 6, he'll just go b and tele back to farm some more. Then, when you start poking him, he q's you back, and then you break about even in the trade because of his innate lifesteal. Then he farms some more and with a mana item/armor he starts doing well. You can't really do much to him with the armor and his lifesteal. Then he buys frozen heart and with 100 armor you don't do much dmg at all to him. If you ever think you can beat him in a fight, he withers you reducing your attack speed by a lot on top of heart and then starts shredding your armor/mr then pounding you with a cane. Then lategame he can be kited but just the wither is enough to be a force to be reckoned with in fights and his dmg is quite nice along with an aoe shred for your team.

Yup, I just wanted to complain about him. I really dislike him as a top laner.

BastionKross18 votes

The reason Nasus works in because he has wither. It's a point and click movement and attack speed slow that lasts five seconds and increases the % of each during the duration. If Nasus hits a champion with that, chances are they won't be kiting him unless they cleanse it or get help from allies. Even Kalista can't easily get away from him.

That is why Nasus works: Every 11 seconds (not counting CDR) one champion can not kite him for 5 seconds.

SaltyKracka6 votes

Nasus is honestly so immobile that if he didn't have that, he'd never get close to anybody.

BastionKross4 votes

That's my point, he makes up for his lack of mobility by taking away his opponents' with one of the strongest slows in the game. The other Juggernauts don't get much of either.

Darius Must be nice to have mobility. Garen Must be nice to have powerful movement imparing CC. Mordekaiser Must be nice to have either one. Skarner I still exist, right?

Chespin201313 votes

Thank you OP for clarifying to everyone what Skarner is. Much appreciated your fellow Skarner player.

5 Stacks GG8 votes

Darius is finally a good champion after 2 years of being garbage and now some people complain that "it's not his identity" SERIOUSLY???

I think it fit's his identity perfectly, he is still precise, we just have to adapt a bit.

ALSO People's temper can change, Darius has been garbage for 2 years now and has being bullied by some ap lulu liss ryze gnar and much more for 2 years YOU BET HE IS ANGRY NOW!

On a serious note, I played him on the pbe and I like the direction they're going with him.

NemeBro2 votes

{quoted}

Darius is finally a good champion after 2 years of being garbage and now some people complain that "it's not his identity" SERIOUSLY???

I think it fit's his identity perfectly, he is still precise, we just have to adapt a bit.

ALSO People's temper can change, Darius has been garbage for 2 years now and has being bullied by some ap lulu liss ryze gnar and much more for 2 years YOU BET HE IS ANGRY NOW!

On a serious note, I played him on the pbe and I like the direction they're going with him.

What about Darius' rework is going to make him no longer get bullied by the champions you just named?

Dalanin1 votes

idk, maybe the 90% slow he puts on them after he pulls one? the fully stacked passive after executing someone with your ult (or stacking it), the fact you don't have to lvl W second anymore?, you name it.

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

unless the enemy ranged champion is bad, youre going to need flash to land a pull. And with the new AS nerfs, both base and scaling, youre relying on executing someone with your ult to stack your passive (or tons of AS runes). His base stats dont allow him to stack his passive in the 5 seconds required.

Baron of Bread4 votes

I just want them to rename Bloodrage to Bloodfocus or something that sounds more like Darius.

ModAcademy Kayn7 votes

Can we please remember that Darius murdered his own commanding officer, and several other powerful figures because he thought they were "weak"?

It Hertz When IP2 votes

He didn't fly into some rage and gank them, though; it was a coldly calculated and planned move that just happened to involved the business end of his axe.

Ferus and Ferrum1 votes

Darius didn't plan to kill his superiors. It wasn't until they ordered a retreat from a losing battle that Darius ran up and murdered someone. He did so out of pride and a sense of overwhelming brutality that embodied Noxus. He absolutely flew into a blood rage and inspired the men around him to slaughter the enemy alongside him. There was no calculated strategy, he just ran up and killed his commander for showing cowardice. That's taken straight from the in-game lore.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

"Darius' captain called for his troops to retreat, but Darius refused to accept such an act of cowardice. Breaking formation, Darius strode towards the captain and decapitated him with one sweep of his gigantic axe. Both terrified and inspired, the soldiers followed Darius into battle and fought with incredible strength and fervor."

"After proving his power on the battlefield, Darius turned his gaze homeward. He saw a Noxus riddled with weakness, where greedy, complacent nobles drained the nation's strength. Seeking to restore his country to greatness, Darius took it upon himself to reshape the Noxian leadership. He identified weak figureheads and violently removed them from their positions of power."

Taken word for word from his in-game background lore. Try reading it; there is no mention of bloodlust or rage whatsoever. Pride, yes, but this was a case of Darius rejecting the cowardice of his superior and removing him permanently from his way. He saw that the battle WAS in fact winnable, but not by a weak leader. After that, he realized that the complacency ran deeper than just one captain and returned home to permanently solve the problem.

There is a difference between "bloodlust" and "determined", between "blood rage" and "courage". Darius is definitely the latter

Jungle Lux God6 votes

A juggernaut is defined as "any massive, overpowering force or object". There is nothing in that definition that says that a juggernaut has to be slow in order for it to qualify as a juggernaut.

For all five champions you mentioned, this is a perfect description of these champions: all five are massive, overpowering objects, regardless of how you look at them, with the smallest of them, Skarner, still being fairly large in his own right.

Speaking of Skarner, I personally feel he is fairly unique, but his only unique aspects are his ultimate. Take away his ultimate, and he is extremely generic because so many champions, especially fighters and tanks, have comparable tools to what he has. The rework gives him some more unique tools without really removing any of the tools he has currently outside of the MS and AS bonuses on his Crystal Slash, and even though it might nerf Skarner a bit I'm still excited for the rework.

junglerboy161 votes

I'm using Riot's definition of Juggernaut for this post, even though I actually think they're dreadfully mis-using the term.

When I think of a Juggernaut, I think The marvel comics villain or any similarly powerful over the top brute. The Hulk is a juggernaut; he's nigh invincible, but also incredibly powerful and (in case anyone out there doesn't know) he can really get around, between leaping miles at a time to just being plain fast.

What Riot said they wanted from juggernauts (to quote the update page) is this:

powerful, durable, immobile and melee. They’re League’s hulking titans who, come late game, turn into super tanky carries who’ll pretty much destroy anyone foolish enough to get in their way.

They added in the extra part about being immobile, not me.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Gameplay-wise, that's exactly what Nasus, Darius, Garen, Mordekaiser, and Skarner are. They are powerful, durable, immobile, and melee. They are both the official definition of what a juggernaut is and they are what Riot's definition of what a juggernaut is.

And before you say anything about Garen or Skarner's movement speed boosts making them mobile, keep in mind that mobility is defined by both Riot and the community at large as gapclosers and not movement speed boosts, so even though they still have movement speed boosts they still are immobile.

Blue Moon Wolf6 votes

I think I just noticed pattern with these reworks. aside from MF, the reworked champs have some kind of weird mini game like mechanic to them: Gangplank: who can hit the barrel first Fiora: hit the enemy on all 4 sides and get a prize (healing Ult) Mordekaiser: Kill the dragon first and reserve a pet dragon Garen: defeat the villain Darius: tag your enemy 5 times for bonuses Skarner: capture the flag rock spire thing 3 more mini games and they can start a carnival on the rift :L

Petrablaze4 votes

You forgot Bard Hide and Seek/Scavenger Hunt.

Prospector Pete5 votes

I think you misspelled Susan.

TheRainInSpain5 votes

I think the term "Juggernaut" is the term "Bruiser", without being called "Bruiser", because Skarner IS a Bruiser. He's not a glass cannon Master Yi, yet not a full tank Nautilus. He's durable, yet does a lot of damage, and lacks heavy non-ultimate hard CC as a balance point.

It's the Force of Nature argument. Even if you had an item with exact same stats, build path, and icon as Force of Nature, Rito will NOT call it that. It would be an entirely new name, for some damn reason.

Mordekaiser and Skarner's (4th) reworks are dismal failures in my opinion.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I still don't understand why people are so uppidity about Morde's rework, do one thing and the biggest complaint people have would be gone, make him able to target minions with his W. WALA, nothing confines him to being in a duo lane.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

I think it's "voila".

Jefftiffy3 votes

The problem I have wish Darius rework is not only are they finally fixing the age old bug with the pull. They are straight up removing any potential he has to stick to anyone and making a spin on a delay (because you apparently need a second to realize that Darius being close to you is bad). He will be left behind in every team fight. And on top of this they reduced his ult damage and his Q damage until late game.

Darius needs a MS steroid or a higher base MS in order to accomplish anything. He is currently one of the few lane bullies left in top lane to keep people like Nasus and Riven out of perma ban. Sometimes removing lane bullies and turning them into tanks is not a smart thing to do. He already gets kited by basically any ranged top capable of self peel.

He needs something else in his kit. Just rewarding him for bursting people gives him a very situational mechanic that doesn't even unlock until 6 doesn't solve his problems.

As much as people moan about laning against Darius. You picked a melee champ into a lane bully or he counter picked you. Darius is early game if you picked late game its on you. Same reason Pantheon got nerfed. Oh wait he gets no play. That's right when you remove a lane bully's ability to bully they become pointless.

Baron of Bread2 votes

Dead Man's Plate is supposed to be added in the same patch as the Juggernaut changes, so that should ease the kiting problem a bit.

Glory to God2 votes

Umm... yeah I agree that this Juggernaut thing isn't really ok but... Nasus doesn't have anything to do with balance. While I hate saying this, he's probably the top laner I hate the most. Even if I'm top, adc, jungle, mid or support. That thing...THAT MONSTER has a kit that is just gross. A slow that almost works as a snare that also slows the freaking attack speed of the enemy. Infinite damage on a skill that also procs on-hit effects and doesn't have any limit against buildings or monsters/minions that also got buffed a while ago. 'Oh but he's countered by lane bullies huehuehueheue' No. I once played as Nasus against a Darius. He SHAT on me. HE SHAT ON ME ON LANE. Then, after he destroyed the outer turret, he went mid and bot. I was an absolute zero by then. Then I stood on lane while he was gone THREE MINUTES. Then he came back on top and tried to duel me. It took 3 seconds to kill him. He's nowhere near tot he state of 'balanced'. 'Oh but he's easily kited huehuehuehuehe' The only marksman that I think that has a chance to kit him is Kalista . Oh wait Nasus' W slows her attack speed too hue. The only balanced thing about him is that he doesn't have two passives and a knock-up.

Photos of Ghosts3 votes

Kalista and Vayne have this weird relationship with Nasus where they're the best lategame counter to each other.

Weasel Kensei2 votes

While I dont disagree with everything you wrote, I couldnt help but feel like you write Darius fan-fiction in your spare time.

I give you that he may be cunning and tactical, but they heavy plate armor and great axe do... say slow. I mean he could be a giant muscle guy and still gone with lighter armor and a short-sword, rapier, spear, or a long sword if he were going grace and speed. Darius does not come off as an "dancing fighter" to me, with hops, dashes, lunges, rolls... and he has none of those things.

You can be cunning, and tactical, and slow... cause of your heavy armor and great axe. Cunning and knowledge of tactics arnt related to your speed. So nice post, just helping you out with that point of confusion.

Catastrop1 votes

Lol you called Garen, Karen XD. Anyway, enough of my immaturity, nicely said.

junglerboy162 votes

I had to un-autocorrect Garen every time I typed it.

I thought I had caught them all, but one Karen escaped.

Insane Pyromanic1 votes

Guessing by reading this you don't actually have a pbe account. Morde is insanely op, for immobile carries like jinx varus and ashe to fight is impossible. He now has a built in heal that also HEALS your team mate, he has increased shield generation if you hit champs with his E (which is a one point wonder skill now), and the third hit of his (also 1 point wonder) q half hps ad carries that get stunned by an engage support. He also has insane wavepush and can get dragon to snowball super hard. He's top tier right now with certain support combos because if he even gets 1 or two hits you get killed and you cant poke him out with his ridiculous W max healing. I suggest watching some gameplay videos of people hard winning lane with him on youtube and you can see what im talking about. TL:DR : the description riot gave of how morde would work in the bot lane didn't explain how good it would be accurately

Also, I played duo bot maokai and morde in season 2 and 3 a LOT, I suggest some of you try it for free elo when it goes live and enjoy always having 100 percent hp.

Im not going to comment on Skarner Darius and Garen cause I literally don't care.

Mathbalnase1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Insane Pyromanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WIRpeqLw,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2015-08-07T03:52:12.368+0000)

(also 1 point wonder) q

I'm a bit confused as to why you're calling his Q a 1-point-wonder. The damage difference, particularly on the 3rd hit, between a 1-point Q and a 5-point Q is simply astronomical It's a difference between about 190%totalAD+80%AP and 310%totalAD+180%AP.

To me, that does not seem to be the scaling of a 1-point-wonder.

Insane Pyromanic1 votes

Because the healing and damage done by maxing W first in lane allows you to trade without taking ANY damage. The base damage in practice especially when both champions are in each others W aoe (which is QUITE large) is ridiculous. You max Q second.

Edit: This is kind of the reason why I don't like the morde announcement in comparison to how he actually plays out on pbe.

Mathbalnase1 votes

In my experience, most people differentiate between the concepts of 'one-point-wonder' and 'that thing that is slightly less awesome than that other thing, and so is maxed second'.

Insane Pyromanic1 votes

The reason why you dont have to put any more points in it early is the RATIO goes up. Not the base damage. You're not likely to have good items till you start maxing your second ability, hince why I say it's a one point wonder.

Mathbalnase1 votes

A) The ratio includes a substantial TotalAD component, which might as well be a base damage component early game.

B) Again, 'max second' is not synonymous with 'one-point-wonder'.

junglerboy162 votes

Yep, that's why I said that it looks like a major gutting and I would have to wait and try it before passing final judgment. I'm thrilled to hear that he isn't as bad off as all the Morde mains kept complaining he would be (I kind of suspected they were more angry about being forced duo instead of their preferred solo lane).

I kept trying to say that he was the champ cut out to make bruiser bot work again, but they all kept disagreeing, and since I couldn't try it and don't main Morde, I kind of had to trust their opinion to a certain extent.

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