Don't just build Poppy and Sion as straight tanks

Tobias Brackner·May 2, 2017·3 votes·1,603 views

I know this is some dank stuff and yeah they have strong enough base dmgs to get away with it, but for real they do SO MUCH DAMAGE with just while still being super tanky.

146 Comments

Big LincolnMay 2, 201711 votes

cleaver is dog shit on both of them

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

CDR (both love casting spells Health (both love being tanky) Armor Pen (both deal AD) AD (both scale off of AD)

Looks pretty badass to me.

Big LincolnMay 2, 20176 votes

neither of them can stack it quickly enough for it to be significant.

poppy is better off with triforce if you want offense, especially when combined with sterak's

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

When Poppy and Sion get into a fight it lasts a long time.

It will get stacked up enough to become relevant.

poppy is better off with triforce

Why not all 3?

RenownedWheat42May 2, 20179 votes

Cleaver + Triforce is a waste of two Phages.

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

Yeah, but if what the guy says is true then you could just have sick dmg output to make up for the Phage passive inefficiency.

Kinda similar to building Triforce on Renek/Shyvana

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20174 votes

I don't think I've ever seen Tri on Renek.

Building all 3 though would just make you squishier then you should be.

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

*Rengar

And not really. You'll have a fat wall of health and depending on build order you have the resistances to back it up.

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20173 votes

Well, Rengo jungles, so he needs to get a Jungle Item, although he could stall it for a Tri Force, but he one has better items to get and 2 the amount he would of to spend would simply just slow him down. If he was fed to hell, maybe, but otherwise wasting the time to build it just wouldn't pan out to well for him.

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

iirc people were building him tanky in tourny and picked up triforce.

Also way to ignore Shyvana and the whole point of this conversation thread.

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20173 votes

See you think I ignored Shyv, but I didn't, My comment was I've never seen a Renek build Tri, not a Shyv. You then commented saying Rengo, so then I gave my two cents. Way to ignore everything I said.

I never said Tri would be awful on Rengo, just simply not usually worth it. He usually goes Warrior, into Cleaver, into Deadmans/Spirit Visage into whatever, but at this point Tri would be pointless.

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

If it was "just your two cents" you would throw in a "but that aside, XYZ about the original topic"

Instead you just talk about Rango and continue to talk about Rango w/o bringing it back to the primary topic of this conversation and thread.

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20174 votes

No, I gave my two cents about the topic lower, where we are talking. I than commented about a comment within the thread. Do you just read what you want to read? Like you clearly do not logically think things through. You just want to be right. I just talk about Rengo? I made one comment about him after you said you meant to say his name and not Renek. So I started a convo about rengo with in a convo cause you brought him up. I then gave you logical reasoning and then when you couldn't counter it you just stray the convo away lol.

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20172 votes

Yes, I would like you to type it out again because you didn't disprove shit lol.

MrHaZeYoMay 2, 20173 votes

And not really. You'll have a fat wall of health and depending on build order you have the resistances to back it up.

IF that's what your talking about, I tried to explain why that "fat" wad of HP isn't worth it. Because you need your JG item, upgraded boots and Tri, that is expensive as shit. You notice how Tri champions always build it 1st? Because it costs a shit ton. takes a lot of room in your invo, and spikes early. It's powerspike midlate and late game is not that great.

I used Rengo as the example. Do you want me to do Shyv?

The basic Shyv build is 1st back a Tiamat, then get JG item and boots, finish the Titanic, then tank items, maybe a Frozen Mallet, she doesn't have room for a Tri.

Would it work on Shyv? Yes, I've done it, it's just not as good as the other build.

PaquayMay 2, 20173 votes

Uhh, you just described almost every tank ever.

Cleaver sucks for them. Hence the downvotes to your post. You can accept it or be wrong.

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

Uh, last I checked most straight tanks scale off of AP and Bruisers scale off of AD.

If you really want to prove me wrong you'll make a list ;)

RalanrMay 2, 20174 votes

Wow, almost like Poppy and Sion are exceptions to that rule.

FrightningMay 2, 20173 votes

What you do for damage on both of those champs is buy a item 3748 and lean a bit health heavy overall with your build (e.g. work item 3083 in there somewhere). Legit you can hit around 4k hp and do a boat load of damage while still being obscenely tanky.

Edit: example build: item 3083 item 3110 item 3748 item 3065 item 3111 +situational last item (should have significant health ideally). 40% CDR in items here too, btw.

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

I would be really surprised if Titantic + Pure Health will outdmg item 3071 item 3053

FrightningMay 2, 20173 votes

At full items it probably will, especially since you could make item 3053 your last item (which is REALLY strong in a build with that much health, since the shield is 30% of your max hp)...and you are tankier for building this way while having that damage. Poppy and Sion both get extra mileage out of gold spent on tank stats (Poppy's W passive, Sion's free hp from W passive and active shield).

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

I guess for me what trips me up is that if they do get the most dmg from them then wouldn't people like XinZhao build that too?

Also since Cleaver shaves off %armor and this procs on spells you can take away 15% armor really quick for not only yourself but also other AD members of your team.

FrightningMay 2, 20173 votes

No because they don't have multipliers on tank stats like Poppy and Sion do. That's why they prefer to lean tank stat heavy. They also tend to get more automatic scaling damage too. Poppy has % max hp dmg on her Q, and Sion has % max damage on shield detonation and also total AD scaling on Q. Things like this let a champion lean on base damages to be threatening and go heavy on tank stats to be hard to kill while still having enough damage to be dangerous. XinZhao , and other similar champions don't get as much out of tank stats (but still need them to function), and instead have offensive steroids. XinZhao has innate passive % arpen, bonus AD scaling on his Q and free AS from W active, as well as on-hit healing every 3rd hit and auto-crit).

In summary, Poppy and Sion and other similar champions build 'enough' damage to be threatening, but otherwise try to be as tanky as possible. Whereas XinZhao and similar champions build 'enough' tank stats to not get blown up, but otherwise try to be as deadly as possible.

For instance, on XinZhao , I typically build something like: item 3071 item 3111 item 3742 item 3156 +situational items (maybe item 3153 + item 3026 )

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

I hear yah, I guess me personally I use their tank stat multipliers as a reason to get tanky enough to stand on the frontline and pick up the dmg items to put more emphasis on how threatening the dmg I deal is. It definitely requires tighter positioning and engagement but I feel the damage you get from it to be worth the risk.

Like, with Poppy black cleaver I've been able to pop squishies in 2-3 rotations instead of the 5-6 I've seen pure tank Poppy do. Also I think dmg Poppy might be a strong counter to Lucian.

FrightningMay 2, 20174 votes

It's not that isn't viable, but it isn't 'mathematically optimal' from the standpoint of gold efficiency because you're not taking advantage of their inherent synergy with defensive stats. Obviously it can work pretty well, because it's still sound itemization, even if not optimally efficient in gold usage, and it will do more damage than a more defensive build (but of course you won't be able to tank as much damage for you team and thus won't fare nearly as well in situations where that would be advantageous).

Tobias BracknerMay 3, 20171 votes

Yeah but I also feel that people put too much value in pure tankiness. It puts a lot of eggs in the few dmg dealers they have on the team, creating an extremely feast/famine scenario in teamfights and even skirmishes. However if everyone is able to contribute good chunks of dmg to a teamfight then there is less pressure on making sure designated dmg dealers are able to reach the proper targets.

More dmg on characters like Poppy and Sion also allow for plays where they can potentially break apart a more "focused" comp by finding flanks to engage and blow up the dedicated dmg dealers (see my aforementioned comment about my theory that Poppy counters Lucian)

MrHaZeYoMay 3, 20173 votes

Your post makes some sense, except this is a team strategy game, people have roles to play with in team comps. It's not a huge thing for Super Tanks to build 1 offensive item, but they already have good base damage, and shitty Scalings for the most part. Super Tanks are meant to be huge tanks on the frontline, and yes by drafting one you are putting a lot of eggs into the Mid and ADC (Also prehaps the Jungler, depending on who they are) basket, but that is the team comp you drafted.

Seems like you just need to play Juggernauts.

ChønklordMay 3, 20172 votes

Fuck your 'roles'.

Tobias BracknerMay 3, 20171 votes

they have roles to play

Too many people have a fetish with this concept and it makes the game incredibly stale.

I will literally win a match w/o a tank, see tournament players win matches w/o tanks, then have a screaming baby on my team whining about how we need a tank.

A team composition isn't one set cookie-cutter "this is the checklist of roles we need filled" it's a vague sense of objectives that the composition needs to have a gameplan to complete.

Also (since you apparently couldn't pick up on this) I'm arguing that Sion and Poppy are not limited to the "super tank" role nor do I feel that their ability to perform in that role is so game-breaking that they need to build/play that way in every single game they are in.

MrHaZeYoMay 3, 20172 votes

I've also won games without tanks, I never once said a tank was NEEDED to win a game lol, simply that if you're going to draft them, you should build them how they are meant to be.

There is nothing wrong with un-optimal builds on champions, I mess around with funny builds all the time, but I don't go on boards telling people to build them lol, as long as you understand why you shouldn't do something and it's normals, who the fuck cares what you do.

The fact of the matter though remains that Sion and Poppy scale better as super tanks, as they're job is to engage or disengage, while absorbing ults and damage and giving their backline time to do their job.

Like I said, a offensive item on them isn't awful, it'll provide you with some extra damage, but will slow you down on your road to being who you are meant to be.

You're trying to think massively outside of the box, and sometimes that's good, but not always. You talk about watching Pro games, but how often do you see them play Poppy or Sion and build any sort of offensive item at all? I understand we're not pros, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't play the game as a team and build around one another.

Tobias BracknerMay 3, 20171 votes

you should build them how they are meant to be

Even when your team has no need for this "how they are meant to be" build?

Even when your team would perform better if they did a build that is "un-optimal"?

MrHaZeYoMay 3, 20172 votes

Yes, at the point you shouldn't be drafting them, thanks for ignoring the whole post :).

FrightningMay 5, 20171 votes

^ Yep, precisely because: what you're trying to do with them, someone else does better. So pick that someone else instead (provided, ofc, you know how to play them).

RalanrMay 3, 20172 votes

Honestly all you need is full AD reds and you're golden with them.

Champion SkinMay 3, 20171 votes

At full items it probably will, especially since you could make your last item (which is REALLY strong in a build with that much health, since the shield is 30% of your max hp)

It is a shield.... which is basically the same as temporary HP and HP scale with resistances which means that it also kind of work even if you have less HP but more resistances (however you do need to take a certain amount of damage for the shield to proc)

FrightningMay 5, 20171 votes

It also scales with max hp, so truthfully, it scales with all tank stats, which my suggested build has a lot of. By leaning health heavy, you get more out of item 3748 and more out of the champion's built-in scalings with max hp and/or free resists.

The reason why it would out-damage item 3071 + item 3053 is because, with 4k+hp, item 3748 will cause more damage (particularly against squishies, which are the people you want to be able to kill effectively if you can get to them) than will.

Champion SkinMay 5, 20171 votes

Well yeah item 3748 is probably one of the best damage items for tanks (outside of item 3068 / item 3025 ) The strongest part is the active though which increase the damage from 5 + 1% max HP (40 + 2.5% max HP to secondary targets) ---> 40 + 10% max HP (10 times higher HP scaling and 8 times higher base damage)

So AA + active AA deals 45 + 11% max HP + 2 X AD (two auto attacks) which is quite a lot of damage

FrightningMay 5, 20171 votes

That's exactly why it's efficient to build it on champions like Poppy and Sion .

PhDs NutsMay 3, 20173 votes

Not even reading more than the OP in this one.

Let me guess: A bunch of people are telling him why he's wrong, and he's ignoring it and repeating the same bad logic in every reply. This is the guy that said to rush Rabadons on supports. Report for spam and move on. He's just trolling.

Tobias BracknerMay 3, 20171 votes

Uh, could you link where I said to rush Rabadons on support?

PhDs NutsMay 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xEELFHl7,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-05-03T20:43:33.275+0000)

Uh, could you link where I said to rush Rabadons on support?

Really? You don't remember arguing for 7 pages that you should rush Rabadons right after Sightstone because "it makes every other AP item more efficient"?

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Pq7coiEW-build-rabadons-on-support

It's the same exact thread as this one. You're a troll.

Tobias BracknerMay 3, 20171 votes

What? I said you should have gold income, sightstone, and a rabadons if you are a support who can mid.

I do remember arguing the benefits of rushing Rabadon's but could you link to me where I said that people should do that?

PhDs NutsMay 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xEELFHl7,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-03T20:47:30.390+0000)

What? I said you should have gold income, sightstone, and a rabadons if you are a support who can mid.

I do remember arguing the benefits of rushing Rabadon's but could you link to me where I said that people should do that?

No.

Tobias BracknerMay 3, 20171 votes

Ah, so you come in making accusations that you refuse to back up.

How...troll

[slayer-jinx-wink]

PhDs NutsMay 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xEELFHl7,comment-id=000a00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-03T20:51:26.691+0000)

Ah, so you come in making accusations that you refuse to back up.

How...troll

[slayer-jinx-wink]

I linked the thread, find the comments yourself. It's literally the OP, and in all your comments afterward.

Tobias BracknerMay 3, 20171 votes

Ah, a fine troll! To come in and have someone search for comments that may not even exist.

PhDs NutsMay 3, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xEELFHl7,comment-id=000a0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-03T20:53:47.934+0000)

Ah, a fine troll! To come in and have someone search for comments that may not even exist.

Here you go, homie.

http://i.imgur.com/PExNhMN.png

Want me to link all your comments in this thread, too, so you don't forget what you're talking about?

Eternal TormentMay 2, 20172 votes

No. Steraks may work due to the shield proc but cleaver is just wasted on them. Youd only build cleaver for the hp stats and cd on those two champions. The ad and the item passive are more wasted than english seniors on the party before graduation

Tobias BracknerMay 2, 20171 votes

Not really, they both are enough bullies to get mileage out of running down their opponents, and 5% armor reduction is nothing to sneer at. Also Black Cleaver procs on AD spells as well so they can get it plenty stacked up.

Also both have AD scaling.

Eternal TormentMay 2, 20173 votes

You really miss the point huh? YOU DO NOT (sorry for caps but your stubborn idiocy forces it) GO DAMAGE ON TANKS. They have ad scalings but they are SHIT for the very reason to not be build on. Sion does more magic damage than physical damage thanks to his W explode having % max health scaling. Sion already has an armorshred on his E which multiplicatively stacks with cleaver not additionally. Means both together are a lot worse than you think of it. Poppy is a similar story. Her damage is weak. And i mean WEAK. Her E is just like a vayne condemn but with much worse scaling. Her Q was already toned down twice from people thinking shw needs damage. Building cleaver on them both is only good for the stats and even then for only 2 of the 3 it owns. They both need raw tankyness because they scale much harder with it mainly due to their shields and poppies stat boost on her W passive.

Building cleaver on sion or poppy for ad is like building crits on viktor. Just because his 2nd Q is an empowered AA doesnt mean you can focus on it at the expense of everything else including his role itself.

As some comments said. You possess the logic of a bronze and ill happily repeat it because you neglect listening to everyone.