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No Choices for 10% CDR Items for Mid Lane

RIP Tahm Kench··24 votes·3,125 views

If a mid laner were to take 10% CDR from their masteries, there's actually no 10% CDR item to go with their grail/morello to get to 40% without either taking an item intended for a support role or taking a second grail/chalice and wasting 10% CDR.

This particular niche used to be filled in part by DFG (I know I would get it just as the 120 ap cdr item (could never remember to use the active)), but with that gone we're left with items that lose gold effeciency in order to balance out the support qualities of the item which might not be wanted; for the promote ability of Banner, and the ghosts for Twin Shadows.

Maybe an item to fill this gap alone is not enough to justify the creation of the item, but maybe there's some other missing niche that could be filled with the item.

Postscript: I realized there's also Will of the Ancients, but that too is generally "not good enough" in a mid laner build unless you have health costs for spells; Morde, Vlad, and maybe the unusual Zac top or something.

41 Comments

Lauricella313 votes

ludens should of had 10% cdr not movespeed

360D3GR3SS2 votes

Fully agree here. There should never be a core item with 10% movespeed on any mages.

Lil Soybean2 votes

{quoted}

Fully agree here. There should never be a core item with 10% movespeed on any mages.

I like it on my Zilean. Q_Q

Xonra1 votes

{quoted}

ludens should of had 10% cdr not movespeed

Agreed. Hell I would have taken 5%

PBnJelly3 votes

I'm pretty sure that Luden's wasn't meant for standard mages, which is why they nerfed the stacking specifically because of spammy champs like Cassio or Ziggs. It was meant to replace DFG for burst champs, and generally CDR isn't all that important when you're 100-0'ing someone with one combo. It has MS because assassins appreciate mobility a lot.

Pæan10 votes

item 3716 :3 but screw Ezreal item 3060 this and Heimerdinger or any other hard pusher AP champ pushes like crazy item 3025 awesome defensive and mana giving alternative to item 3100 item 3152 spellvamp works decently with most all AP mids, though only a few build it religiously ex Vladimir Mordekaiser and mid Morgana item 3023 helps kiting and chasing, gives a good chunk of AP and

granted most of these are niche or defensive items, but they do exist.

g07h4xf005 votes

You don't need a 10% CDR item.

15% from CDR/lvl blues 5% from masteries 20% from Morello 40% total

/thread

RIP Tahm Kench3 votes

And with a build like that there is no choice, you MUIST have cdr/level blues to get 40% with this. My point is there needs to be a 10% item to have another choice with how you want to get 40%.

There's: 2 20% items 20% item, 5% from masteries, CDR Boots 20% item, 5% from masteries, specific runes

There's no option for people who want things in the support mastery tree to get something like: 20% item, 10% from masteries, 10% item.

thePandev2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaiju Skarner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xAxn2XzZ,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-07-16T19:38:48.366+0000)

And with a build like that there is no choice, you MUIST have cdr/level blues to get 40% with this. My point is there needs to be a 10% item to have another choice with how you want to get 40%.

There's: 2 20% items 20% item, 5% from masteries, CDR Boots 20% item, 5% from masteries, specific runes

There's no option for people who want things in the support mastery tree to get something like: 20% item, 10% from masteries, 10% item.

If it bothers you that much why not get CDR/lvl runes then? You say there is no 10% item, there are. item 3152 item 3023 both give a nice amount of AP and some nice unique effects, even item 3060. And question: Why would you go that far down the utility tree if you're playing AP Mid? I see absolutely no possible way to explain that unless you're playing someone like Lulu. Even the Defense tree is more useful. Utility is tailored to fit supports, except for maybe the MS and Mana Regen, which are both somewhat flexible between any other lane.

It's funny to people complaining about something so specific in AP itemization, meanwhile AD casters.

RIP Tahm Kench1 votes

As for why support masteries:

Spell vamp (3 pts) Mana (3 pts) Movement Speed (3 pts) Hp Regen from Max Mana (1 pt) Summoner Spell CDR (3 pts) Potion Duration and Biscuit (2 pts) Starting Gold for Extra Potion (1 pt) Spell and Item CDR (3 pts) 20 Move Speed out of combat for roaming (requires 21 pts in utility)

So lane sustain and roaming, perfect for someone tankier like Cho or Swain; where in Cho's case he really wants 40% CDR for his long cooldown spells.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

If you can use the spell vamp, you can get away with buying the newly buffed WOTA. The mana, movespeed, summoner spell CD/potion duration + biscuit can be gotten by going 21/0/9.

So the question - is the extra potion/item CDR (since you can itemize 40% easily going 21/0/9) and the effect of Mobis worth all the offensive stats you lose?

RIP Tahm Kench1 votes

Yes.

Edit: see my above post for my reasoning for not getting WotA (also oh shit, I just realized the name reference, 4 years too slow...)

thePandev2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaiju Skarner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xAxn2XzZ,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-17T00:14:44.075+0000)

As for why support masteries:

Spell vamp (3 pts) Mana (3 pts) Movement Speed (3 pts) Hp Regen from Max Mana (1 pt) Summoner Spell CDR (3 pts) Potion Duration and Biscuit (2 pts) Starting Gold for Extra Potion (1 pt) Spell and Item CDR (3 pts) 20 Move Speed out of combat for roaming (requires 21 pts in utility)

So lane sustain and roaming, perfect for someone tankier like Cho or Swain; where in Cho's case he really wants 40% CDR for his long cooldown spells.

You take 3 points in Spell vamp, which shows me that you don't have any problems with it as a stat. So then why not just buy item 3152 for your 10% CDR item?

RIP Tahm Kench1 votes

I take it because it's mostly just a stepping stone on the way to the CDR, mana regen, and 20 movement speed. It's alright for laning when there's a lot of poke and less dying in 3 seconds. If you look at how much a spell rotation actually heals for a powerhouse like Veigar at 1000 ap, it's not as much as you would think.

860 damage • 2 targets • 33% • 15% = 85 hp max 1320 damage • n targets • 33% • 15% = 65 hp per target, so MAYBE 110 hp 1500 damage • 15% + 80% enemy ap • 15% = 225 hp + 12% of enemy's ap, so 345 hp total if we assume they have 1000 ap.

So on average this is about 500 hp with the conditions that: A) You aren't at full hp when you use the combo (or reach full hp mid way) B) You both have absurd levels of ap C) The enemy doesn't block a spell with a spell shield (you're Veigar, the enemy ap is probably worried you'll just 1 shot them with ult)

Honestly at that point I'd rather just have Rylai's for 400 guaranteed hp.

Edit: I guess I'll do the math for theoretical max hp healed per second at max cdr from each spell.

Q: ((4.29 + 1% ap) • # targets) HP/sec W: ((3.3 + 1.03% ap) • # targets) HP/sec R: (1.56 + 0.3% ap + 0.25% enemy ap) HP/sec

Assuming you have the mana to keep this up.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaiju Skarner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xAxn2XzZ,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-07-16T19:38:48.366+0000)

And with a build like that there is no choice, you MUIST have cdr/level blues to get 40% with this. My point is there needs to be a 10% item to have another choice with how you want to get 40%.

There's: 2 20% items 20% item, 5% from masteries, CDR Boots 20% item, 5% from masteries, specific runes

There's no option for people who want things in the support mastery tree to get something like: 20% item, 10% from masteries, 10% item.

Riot has stated that CDR is intended for champions who want to 'specialize' in CC, since there is no item that increases the duration of CC or otherwise affects its scaling. So of course they aren't going to provide a good CDR item that isn't utility focused.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

Can supports and mid laners perhaps trade some stats? Honestly, we've got more CDR than we know what to do with. It's in our runes. In our masteris. And on EVERY FREAKING ITEM!

FireNuke4 votes

If a mid laner were to take 10% CDR from their masteries, there's actually no 10% CDR item to go with their grail/morello to get to 40% without either taking an item intended for a support role or taking a second grail/chalice and wasting 10% CDR.

Um, excuse me, have you heard of item 3158 ? Which allows to get to 40% CDR combined with Morellos/Grail? You don't necessarily buy item 3020 on a mage midlaner, yes you lose that 15 MPen and lower your burst damage but you get more DPS. This is especially good if your character has 2+ utility spells in his kit and doesn't necessarily require to just burst people but can use his spells to apply as much CC AND Damage at the same time, especially when you play against a team that stacks MR where item 3020 alone won't do much and you rush item 3135 , then you just forget the enemy team stacks MR and that's it; Last season Lissandra bought item 3158 plusitem 3165 and I've seen Viktor getting the same item set recently; I'm really surprised a lot of people think that all midlane mage is about is only instant burst damage when it's not completely true, you can itemisate mages differently and accordingly to situation.

Hawkefire2 votes

15% =/= 10%

You are still wasting 5% cdr there bro.

Jungle Lux God3 votes

For a while I was building item 3023 when I was playing AP mid laners, and from my experience it's pretty solid.

80 AP is the standard for high-tier AP items, has that 10% CDR you might be looking for, has 6% Movement speed, which is pretty nice for quite a few AP mids, and is 600 gold cheaper than most of the other big AP items.

The only downside of Twin Shadows is that it's passive is a utility-oriented active, but I don't think that's a problem considering how strong it is. Semi-global slow that targets the two closest enemies? I'd say that's pretty good.

IcyPepper1 votes

People really underestimate utility. More damage is always nice, but sometimes utility supplements it better than just more numbers.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Xerath Just try and run.

IcyPepper1 votes

You are the reason I don't mid.

7ha7guy7771 votes

The ghosts can pop banshee's veil. It could be extremely useful on champions who don't have a way of popping the spell shield without destroying their rotation combo

Phoenix Kotori 3 votes

It's called Blue Buff.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

yea, i really miss dfg for exactly that reason (screw the broken active, but at least there had been a 10%cdr-lategame option).

GroundRuleDouble2 votes

The answer is don't get the 10% and use those masteries elsewhere. Then get 40% in items.

Silents4292 votes

Is an extra wasted 10% really that big of a deal?

It really doesn't matter.

acepil0t2 votes

Guys if you want some CDR you don't absolutely have to get to the 40% cap. I usually just run with the 5% mastery and 20% from an item and call it good. Yes some mages benefit from as much CDR as possible but really it isn't a big problem if you only have 25% or so.

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

CDR runes are really useful for reaching the cap. It only takes 3 scaling glyphs to get 5% cdr. Also blue buff gives 10 so if you get blue a lot you don't need to build 40% on most champs Edit: A new 10% cdr item for midlaners would be sweet though. I used to build dfg for the same reason

Dr Poro1 votes

You're right. But atm, my advice is to not focus on that 40% CDR but just build a ton of AP. Most AP builds have either 1 or 0 CDR items.

KirbyCake1 votes

its runeglaive obviously

brad1 votes

you're supposed to get 10% from your cdr blues

Earl Eulrich2 votes

since the uptime of blue isn´t as high anymore it´s very shortsighted to relay on it for anything (not to mention that if you fall behind it´s one of the first objectives that get denied).

brad1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xAxn2XzZ,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-07-16T17:20:17.028+0000)

since the uptime of blue isn´t as high anymore it´s very shortsighted to relay on it for anything (not to mention that if you fall behind it´s one of the first objectives that get denied).

blues as in the blue runes

glyphs is what I think the blue ones are called

Earl Eulrich1 votes

you can do that...but even then you have 10%from runes, 5%from masteries and somehow would want to gain 25%to cap - which would be ionian boots + 10%. So mostly you just take morellos anyway (good lord, chalice still needs a buff) and settle for 35%...

it´s not really much of a problem, but it still is somewhat annoying - and it just seems so unneeded that there isn´t a lategame cdr-option anymore.

brad1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xAxn2XzZ,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-16T17:28:14.170+0000)

you can do that...but even then you have 10%from runes, 5%from masteries and somehow would want to gain 25%to cap - which would be ionian boots + 10%. So mostly you just take morellos anyway (good lord, chalice still needs a buff) and settle for 35%...

it´s not really much of a problem, but it still is somewhat annoying - and it just seems so unneeded that there isn´t a lategame cdr-option anymore.

nononononono you go 9-0-21 and grab 10% cdr from masteries 10% from flat cdr glyphs and the rest is up to you

i dont think any of the needless items have any cdr and void staff doesnt either so its rare to go over 40

Earl Eulrich1 votes

i dont think any of the needless items have any cdr and void staff doesnt either so its rare to go over 40

that´s basically the problem - before luden´s dfg still got you 10%cdr if you felt the need for it later on (and it had been nice to have just the findish codex in the inventory early on on many champs), but now it´s gone and there´s no replacement-cdr-option...so bascially apcs are even more forced to grab a morellos than they had been before.

so itemization feels a good bit stagnant for me atm.

LankPants1 votes

Next patch item 3050 will be a fairly legit option.

It will be a super cheep item with super good gold efficiency even without the bind effect. With the bind it's a mini deathcap that also give your ADC 50% crit chance.

s LessThanThree1 votes

item 3158 item 3165

Sohleks1 votes

You assume you have blue buff for 10%... 5% from masteries, 20% from full CDR item. 35%... round off with runes

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