Help against Leblanc

masterdragon481·May 1, 2015·2 votes·705 views

So I realize that her win rate is very far from impressive, but I am still of the opinion that Leblanc is beyond toxic. The only way I know how to deal with her is to ban her if I can and hope to god my team does if I'm not captain. Does anyone know how to actually handle her?

As far as I can tell, she is able to unload her burst in such a rapid manner at pretty much any period of time and blink back before the enemy can retaliate. I legitimately have absolutely no idea how to play against her or deal with her; it seems like she can 100-0 anyone that isn't building full take while taking NO retaliation; roughly every 12 seconds (if she maxes cdr).

As far as I can tell, she still needs some nerfs because she is incredibly frustrating to deal with. So, for my own sanity, does anyone know how to deal with this champ?

15 Comments

EndlessSorcererMay 1, 20154 votes

LeBlanc can have issues with tanky champions in lane, so it might be worth trying AP fighters against her. They are unconventional picks, but they can work quite well. Galio Chogath Maokai Mordekaiser

If I see I'm laning against LeBlanc, I'll typically take Flat MR Quints and Glyphs, Scaling or Flat Health Seals, and offensive marks. In many cases, I will start Crystalline Flask and try to keep my health topped off.

Champions with some form of instant/targeted CC and/or who can work with a durable build can work. Rod of Ages, Abyssal Scepter, and Rylai's Crystal Scepter are all good items for early durability against her, so champions who synergize with them are valuable. Annie Malzahar Lissandra Lulu

During teamfights, you typically want to keep stuff warded so she can't sneak into your jungle for a pick or flank. If you can prevent her from flanking your team, it can be hard for her to get past your tanks and to your squishies without using her ultimate W. Hard CC (especially stuns and silences) can really screw her over and keep her still long enough for your team to burst her.

The hardest part of handling LeBlanc, like most assassins, is team coordination. She excels at punishing mistakes, which are sadly common among many players. Ward so you can catch her roaming, warn your team whenever she is missing, and try to avoid letting anyone feed her kills.

masterdragon481May 1, 20151 votes

Thank you for the response, I do have a few comments though.

First I will try your tanky champion suggestion next time I am unfortunate enough to have to play against one. I do want to point out a problem I have with this solution; I don't really think its fair that Leblanc can crowd out such a large number of champions so effectively. Assassin or no, her power level and her play patterns result in VERY little counter play being available to the enemy team. I also have to question what taking a champion like this against Leblanc does to a team comp; if you have a mage in a different lane, I see no reason why she wouldn't just swap. So in addition to crowding out a large pool of champions, she forces the enemy team to take champions that are unconventional for a reason. I have to admit that this does make me raise my eyebrows a little bit.

I have played Malzahar vs her a few times and while I can't say I know the match up well, I can say that it is still heavily tilted in Lb's favor. Of course I think she should have an advantage in the lane (since she is an assassin), but she can put a QW harrass (or mimic'd Q W if she really wants it to hurt, or is running low on mana) down so quickly that you don't have time to react. If I were to try to anticipate her W (because I know she can be interrupted out of it) the best I could hope for is an ulti by itself which will hardly be sufficient to win the lane. If I try to put E down as well, I won't successfully get the R down because she will blink back before I have time to cast. And just using my ultimate to trade damage doesn't seem like a particularly good use of the ability. Because of her mobility, I have a tough time with the argument that instant CC counters her; she chooses when to fight and when to retreat pretty much exclusively; and her low cool downs permit her to do both at pretty much every minute of the game.

Warding against her and trying to zone her out is definitely an option, but getting those wards up can be very difficult and dangerous. In addition, I have found that her damage is high enough that unless you are more than 2 W blinks away, she will STILL be able to kill a target and then retreat out; zoning her as a tank is incredibly difficult (I know, shes an assassin). I also think you are more likely to waste your time trying to kill her while she roams, she is far too effective at evading capture.

Please don't misunderstand this response, I am thankful for the advice you've given and will try it out whenever I have to play against her. I am trying not to sound like a whiny guy who just lost to a Leblanc. But my opinion of the champion hasn't changed; she is an assassin with incredibly low cool downs that grant her access to multiple rotations of high burst at very little risk to herself. I really do think she is in need of one, if not several, balance changes.

EndlessSorcererMay 1, 20151 votes

They are valid concerns. I generally have a pretty passive playstyle and prefer to play champions who scale into the mid-late game, so I'm fairly used to dealing with and surviving against lane bullies (pretty sure I've had to play Nasus against more Darius more than any other champion).

It isn't really that important to kill her while she roams. What is important is to see her position so that members of your team don't get picked off while rotating between objectives.

Malzahar has a few advantages against LeBlanc, though it isn't necessarily laning phase; he's immobile and his silence is delayed so he can be vulnerable. However, Malzahar will deal a lot of damage regardless of his build, so he can become quite bit more durable than many mid-laners without really impacting his damage. Against assassins, I'm fond of building Rod of Ages, Liandry's Torment, and Rylai's Crystal Scepter which gives me a lot of health to survive while retaining high damage. As a side note, Brand can also work well with a similar build.

His ultimate isn't really meant for killing her in lane or comboing your spells against LeBlanc; as you said, she can blink back too quickly. However, it can be very useful for locking her down in a teamfight when she tries to assassinate a teammate. You can instantly CC her so that she can't respond while your team kills her and it makes you a good bodyguard.

Finally, after he has a few levels you can farm quite safely from a distance. With a few ranks in E and some AP, you can easily EQ the minion wave and have your Malefic Visions (and possibly Voidling) CS for you while you sit back out of her reach. You also push very quickly, which can let you shove LeBlanc under tower so she has to waste abilities to CS under tower instead of harassing you. (Shoving her under tower may be less relevant since they changed her Mimic'ed abilities to scale with ultimate rank instead of the actual abilities rank.)

Personally, I don't really have an issue with her crowding out other champions. Counter-picks are a valid strategy in the game and players can adapt their build to handle them. Have you tried changing your runes and starting purchase when laning against her? I typically take MR Quints+Glyphs, Health Seals, and AD/HybridPen Marks and start with Crystalline Flask when laning against her. As long as you stay topped up and don't take unnecessary damage, it makes it much easier to survive the lane and farm.

If you are really having issues, a Null Magic Mantle can up your survivability for 500G and you can easily just sit on it until late-game (or build Chalice of Harmony). You lose out on about 20AP (Amplifying Tome), but it can prevent LeBlanc from bursting you early laning phase.

Haunting Guise or Abyssal Scepter are good purchases on certain champions. It might be a bit off your normal build path, but they offer comparable damage and more survivability to the more offensive choices. Katarina works very well with these items, it you end up having to lane with her against LeBlanc.

Don't be afraid to back when you are low; you might miss some gold and experience, but you would miss it anyways if you died. This way you at least don't give her a kill on top of it.

masterdragon481May 1, 20151 votes

First and foremost, HOW DO YOU PUT THE PAGE BREAK THINGS IN BETWEEN IDEAS IN????? That's so cool and since I tend to give long winded responses, the skill would be invaluable to me. TEACH ME! =]

I am completely fine with her being a strong pick against enemy mid laners; what I have a problem with is her completely shutting down opponents and giving them no options whatsoever. That fact that there isn't really any counter play to her kit beside "hope you survive the burst and go heal" reminds me of the old LB and old veigar; both champions that were changed because there was nothing opponents could do against them. It feels the same; buy early mres to survive!! but that really gimps your ability to fight her and messes up your later portions of the game.

I should run flat mr glyphs; right now I am running mres per level, and since chalice usually is first on my list I do end up at a relatively high magic resistance. I have even gone as far as to get merc treads. While I will give you that I don't have the highest mres as I could during the laning portion of the game, I have to question how much it would really matter. The problem is just how often her burst is up and now little mana is requires to chunk me down; she doesn't need to kill me on the first rotation, or even the second. The fact that I can't really respond to her damage means I just have to take it and heal, which puts me behind.

Starting with a flask might also be a good idea, I don't need the AP if I know im not going to kill her anyway. As for going back when you are low to avoid giving her a kill, while you are definitely correct in everything you said, Leblanc snowballs easily off of the tiniest leads. What you lose in gold and exp is usually enough for her to keep pressuring you and keep repeating the process.

I do agree that is what happens with Malzahar, but just for the record I would hardly say he is GOOD vs her; He merely is able to survive.

I do have respect for your ability to survive the bullies you go up against. What screams different about Leblanc in comparison to say, Darius (I am just using the example you brought up) is that Darius has weaknesses while Leblanc seems to have none.

Darius has to watch his mana VERY carefully (his ultimate is such a huge portion of his mana bar) and he can be ganked. He can be kited, is melee, and once he is in a fight, he stays in a fight.

Leblanc, by contrast, can be in and out of a fight literally in a blink, deal very high damage, and have the entire rotation up again in around 12 seconds; around 4 if you don't count the ultimate. She is almost ungankable in during the laning phase, especially once she hits 6. And yes, if she used w+R to escape a gank, she won't be bursting your midlaner with it. But this safety lasts for the time it takes to get those abilities off cooldown; around 15 seconds for the W and 35 ish (to start) seconds for the ultimate.

So unless your jungle is coming around mid successfully that often, Leblanc will still be able to pressure just as hard. I am saying this in comparison to someone like Ahri who, when you take her ultimate down, you force her to play differently until it comes back up (which usually takes longer in the early stages of the game).

I don't think such a high damage champion should be so safe and be able to dictate when and where every fight takes place; this currently seems to be the case with her.

EndlessSorcererMay 1, 20151 votes

Once again, fair enough.

I'm used to unfavourable matchups so it doesn't really bother me, since I tend to play around them and focus on objective control and farm. Most champions I play tend to scale well into late-game so I typically just focus on staying even with (or at least not feeding) my opponent and being more useful later. I can understand why you would find it annoying to lane against her though.

Also, to use the page breaks, you just need to put a string of hyphens between new lines. -----------------

Also something to note: if you want to use on of the special characters (i.e. *_~) without having them style the text (i.e. without making the text bold, italicized, or struck-through respectively), you can use \ before the character to escape it.

I wonder if there is a thread or guide with all the possible text shortcuts. I knew the escape character \ from general programming and I found the line break by accident (I just tried to use hyphens as a separator and it ended up giving me the line break).

WalkingInACircleMay 1, 20151 votes

Well, by far my most common mid is Ahri. With Ahri, you have to dodge the w hit with your q speed. You also have slightly higher range on q than her w. If you dodge the w, you can also avoid the q proc, mostly leaving LeBlanc high and dry. Alternatively, if you're feeling confident, you can fire charm into her w. Her passive usually ensures she wins a burst match though.

I also had an odd game as Malphite where a Leblanc came top. I don't know exactly why, but after buying item 3211 the lane became humoursly easy. She clearly had no idea what to do if she couldn't auto win by facerolling the keyboard. For mid a tanky style mid like Cho'gath might work.

UnedibleMay 1, 20151 votes

Galio makes Leblanc want to cry. Just sayin.

Trash MammaIMay 1, 20151 votes

I hope they gut her into the ground

DrNovaMay 1, 20151 votes

Play champs who can push lane well and rather safely. Syndra and Xerath do well at this. Get that mana/regen up and stay back safely, just kill minions waves. Be sure to ward well of course and pay attention to ganks, but she has shat waveclear, if you can push hard she suffers if you dont give her kills (though yes, this does make getting ganked an issue)

Just stay back safely and dont duel her, with alot of champs dont poke her even if you notice your just blowing spells for nothing. Get that CS

masterdragon481May 1, 20151 votes

Xerath working well against Leblanc is just a false statement. I'm sorry but I've seen the matchup and played it; Xerath cannot stay far enough back to be out of range of Lb's burst. Her insane mobility also makes it impossible to harass her back. To further that idea, staying back isn't really an option unless you want to zone yourself out of exp range; because if you are close enough to recieve exp you are close enough to be dashed to. Her burst rotation is up often enough that this is almost nearly a constant threat; not to mention is also results in her being completely ungankable at the same time.

Syndra might be able to do well, because theoretically she can knock lb out of her first W. But she will still have to deal with the ultimate dash which does more than enough damage as is. Also, on top of this, scatter the weak is up less often than her dash be a good 8 seconds. Finally, her relatively short range, all skill shot kit makes it very difficult to hit Leblanc. I can't see Syndra doing well against a good Leblanc

Also she doesn't have bad wave clear. That is a myth that might have existed when her ultimate costed mana and was just a damage amplification of the last used spell. When she was reworked, this changed. If she maxes W first, she has a 100 mana AOE ability to clear waves with, and a free even stronger one after that. "But masterdragon481, if she uses that for wave clear, she can't burst you!" That is true; but only for 40 seconds at max; around 12 seconds if you are just looking at the W. That is more than enough time before the next wave crashes to tower. But there isn't really anything stopping her from jumping you when you use your spells on the minion wave; if she forces you to back because you are about to die every time you clear a minion wave, you aren't really getting an advantage.

Like I said to another poster here, I do appreciate the time and the advice you are trying to give. I am not trying to give the impression that your advice is falling on deaf ears, but I don't really think that anything you have said here is even remotely true nor does it provide anything that can be used against a Leblanc.

EndlessSorcererMay 1, 20151 votes

LeBlanc used to have poor waveclear before they changed her ultimate. Previously, the damage dealt by her ultimate depended on the rank of mimicked spell, which meant that LeBlanc would have to max her Q for optimal damage. Now the damage of the mimicked spell only depends on the rank of her ultimate, which means that she can max W for waveclear/CDR and still have good burst from her mimicked Q for trading.

Basically, people who say she has poor waveclear have not kept up-to-date with the changes to her kit.

1000angrybeesMay 1, 20151 votes

Honestly, I've played against her with fucking annie and she was a piece of shit to play against. If they adjusted the tether range that would be a step in the right direction.

Drunk RummateMay 1, 20151 votes

Just don't feed her in lane. It's honestly okay to drop 20 CS out of 100 if you aren't dying to her. Buy some MR to make it through the early-midgame and by the time you're grouping heavily with your team she'll have a much harder time picking you.

She's annoying for the same reason that Zed is annoying. She denies the enemy mid their ability to farm easily, snowball, and roam at the sacrifice of teamfighting and lategame power. One of those win lane, lose game champions.

Dies to WolvesMay 1, 20151 votes

just a few pointers, comming from someone who has played as and against her for a long time, and also used to hate her (especially pre her "rework", when her Q dealt a shit-ton of front loaded damage so she often didn't even need to pop the mark to nuke you)

you seem to overestimate her W's mobililty. You're acting like you're completely zoned off of the minion wave because of her W, but honestly just stand a little bit back and she won't be able to W into you, it's range is only 600 - for comparison, annie's Q and W are 625 range, her ult is 600 range, she's considered a short-ranged mage. Ryze has 600 range stuff (his Q got changed to 600 range with his rework), and he's considered a short ranged mage.

She can W to close the gap to you and then use her Q / E, but then she'll be losing out on the damage from her W. Admitelly, her damage on all of her spells is pretty high regardless, but if you dodge her E (the hitbox is wonky high, but the projectile is pretty slow) she'll have very little damage and you can (and probably should!) trade back with her, she's SQUISHY and has no in-built sustain.

If she stays past your minion wave to try and zone you off of minions from the risk of her full combo, call for a gank. "but she has mobility!!!!" she does, but she's far away from her turret / if she uses her W to harass you she's fucked / this will probably make her start to play more passive and stop trying to zone you so hard from the risk of getting ganked.

you need fast reflexes and good prediction, but it's really not hard once you get the hang of it. I've read xerath as an example; save your stun from when she dashes towards you. As soon as she starts to move a bit close to your direction, get ready to cast your stun; as soon as the dash animation starts, cast the stun towards her (based on where she's going, which is often right to your face). Now proceed to chunk her. Same thing for ahri and her charm.

Then of course there is just counter-picking. Someone like annie; you point-and-click hard CC her when she goes in, chunk her as hard as she chunks you - BUT you're tanky compared to her, so you just outright win.

masterdragon481May 1, 20151 votes

I don't really think I'm overestimating her W's mobility at all; rather I think you are incorrect in your statement. The dash range is 600 but since the radius of the AOE is 250 units, her actual range on the ability is 850. Not only is that significantly longer, but it also means that she can trade with a champion like annie without annie being able to react at all (both her Q and the detonation are outside of annie's range, making a QW burst of 140+140% ap at level 2). And against someone that isn't point and click, once Leblanc has W'd, there is almost no chance that you hit her due to the ability to blink back. Trading becomes almost impossible. So I do think she actually zones pretty damn well. Which brings us right into ganks.

A jungler can come gank a Leblanc but once she hits 6 it is nearly impossible to do so due to double distortion. But even if you blow her double distortion in a gank, it is up in around 30 seconds. So unless you plan on coming mid every 30 seconds, she will continue to be able to pressure your laner with impunity. There are almost no drawbacks to her ultimate and I think this is one of the major problems with her.

Now of course the common argument is to wait for her to use distortion on your mid laner. Well, okay, first of all, if you are waiting for the assassin to use their burst on your squishy before you make your move, you're entire purpose of being there is irrelevant. Ganking a dead mid laner isn't very helpful. Now, even assuming LB can't kill your mid laner outright, all she has to do is ward the immediate bushes; if you aren't sitting in one of those, she can blink back and get to safety before you can successfully close distance on her. As long as Leblanc is careful about when she engages, she really can't be punished by a jungler. More to the point, every failed gank that a jungler attempts on a LB puts him (or her) further behind; now leblanc is setting two people behind at no extra effort or risk. Seems like a win win to me.

You mention the W to close distance and the QE for poke, but that is, in my experience, almost never used. It's a waste of mana. W in, QR is MUCH more likely with guaranteed damage of 310+140% AP, a cool down of close to 30 seconds, mana cost only for a Q and W (150 total mana), an effective range of 1300 (I realize she is dealing the damage at 700 range, but can put that 600 range in between you immediately on completion), and an instant escape making it impossible to put down more than one spell as retaliation. It also has the benefit of completely ignoring minions, making it even more difficult for things like Ahri charm (since you mentioned it) to hit. Also, no CC in the game lasts for 4 seconds, which means if it takes you longer than the duration of your hard CC to land a spell rotation, LB will be able to blink back before you're finish trading with her. And again, if her cool downs from that trade don't come up before yours do, your resources (mana and health) trades in the exchange will favor her.

I play a LOT of xerath. I'll tell you how that goes. Firstly, I'm very lucky if my stun doesn't hit a minion instead of leblanc. Secondly, the dash happens so quickly, I'll be lucky for a .85 second stun, which means she will be able to blink back before I land my W. Forget my Q all together. Now I have blown my only semblance of an escape on a trade that, in most cases, I will lose because if she maxes Q first, one hit of her Q will out damage my one point in e at 3 levels. If she is able to connect the W because my E doesn't hit, she out trades with 2 points in the skill. Remember, the 250 unit radius means she doesn't need to come right at me. For reference, Xerath's W is 200 units. The AOE on Leblanc W is bigger than that. Once she hits 6, this gets even worse when she just trades with QR and uses the W to juke. This is VERY far from a good match up and honestly just favors Leblanc.

In addition, I would like to point out that her passive stealth allows her to escape from even more; you can't hit a target that is stealthed without vision (obviously) and this can give LB the time she needs to blink back/distort away. Again, I would consider this a fair trade IF Leblancs total burst rotation wasn't available every 30 seconds. This means that your mid aners commital with a hard CC (which could very well be their ultimate) gets negated essentially by a stealth, only to have LB have her full rotation up half a minute afterwards.

To be clear, I don't think Xerath (or any dedicated mage) should be able to win this matchup. I just don't think its fair that she has the ability to kill me/ poke me out of lane with one rotation of spells every 30 seconds. And it isn't like her playstyle or methods change based on opponent; she will always out trade every enemy mid laner if not in health, in mana (though usually in health too). Leblanc trades off NOTHING for the very large amounts of power that she possesses. I honestly can't say I can't say I can think of a single weakness Leblanc possesses, besides short(ish) range.

I appreciate the ideas you and others have brought to the discussion, but I think these are attempts at bailing water out of a sinking ship. I have to admit that none of the ideas that have been mentioned here are particularly satisfying ideas and all lead to me to believe that she needs some changes.