Devourer : Rift Scuttler is higher priority than Champ Kill / Assist???

Saint Eunice·Jul 9, 2015·1 votes·1,604 views

Why is this true? Jungle should really be tempted to join team fights, why tempt them to kill rift scuttler instead of help in a team fight??

7 Comments

Variks the LoyalJul 9, 20151 votes

Anyone worth his salt will know a kill is always worth more that scuttle, if you don't pay for it. That's 300 gold.

The extra stack from scuttle is meant to encourage scuttle control. I've seen a lot of junglers ignore scuttle entirely, if they aren't just passing by it. This promotes taking the time to kill scuttle, get the vision, and take the risk by being out of your jungle, rather than just afk farming where it's safe.

AyRe CoNteMpTJul 9, 20151 votes

the problem is that every scuttle after the first one takes so long for some junglers that its just flat out not worth the time. sure an udyr might take it, but a nocturne and a yi aint gonna touch it ever, even tho the latter two benefit more from devourer, or at least evenly.

KazymandiasJan 4, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xA4KGUKW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-07-09T17:33:22.997+0000)

the problem is that every scuttle after the first one takes so long for some junglers that its just flat out not worth the time. sure an udyr might take it, but a nocturne and a yi aint gonna touch it ever, even tho the latter two benefit more from devourer, or at least evenly.

A Yi what?

No, Yi has true damage from Wuju Style. Killing the scuttler is a must for any good jungler, but Yi kills it faster than most.

Having the extra vision, and getting some gold to pay for it, is almost always worth the time. But most junglers do have SOME kind of way of damaging it faster. And don't forget that Heavy Hands takes care of it, too.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 4, 20162 votes

oh wow do you always reply to 6 month old posts? anyways, taking scuttle always leaves you open for an ambush except if you have vision control over that area. i still use it very often to punish greedy junglers. especially weak ones like yi, but my favorite is kindred.

KazymandiasJan 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xA4KGUKW,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-04T21:47:56.221+0000)

oh wow do you always reply to 6 month old posts? anyways, taking scuttle always leaves you open for an ambush except if you have vision control over that area. i still use it very often to punish greedy junglers. especially weak ones like yi, but my favorite is kindred.

If you encounter weak Yis, that's the fault of the people playing them. Yi is easy to play, difficult to master, but once you do even cc can't stop him effectively.

I constantly win by counter-jungling with Yi. He's faster, he can bait by seeming near death and then meditating to come from behind and win, and if things go bad he has the fastest base run speed of any jungler, plus the ability to use alpha strike as a dash to any nearby monster. And, of course, he has some of the fastest camp clear, so I often have better gear. I ALWAYS do, once I've stolen a few camps.

And no, because strong junglers often counter jungle, there's nothing magically more dangerous about river, because the enemy could as easily come into your jungle, or you theirs, with all the blind corners for surprise. With River I can see the enemy coming, and drop a ward in the only bush if I really think it's necessary. In fact, if your team is any good river is safer, because both mid and another lane can easily come help if you're attacked. I routinely get kills by pinging for help the instant the enemy jungler sees me in river. I pretend to ignore him and finish the bug, while my team closes in.

I only ever run into trouble if I decide to stay and finish the bug despite seeing the enemy jungler coming, AND no team member ganks him. If I either run or (if strong enough) engage, or my team comes, I pretty much never fail. As I said, faster, have last-second heal, and probably better gear, especially against a "safe" jungler like you.

And since the bug doesn't fight back, not only is it free vision and gold, but I heal while killing it, instead of taking more damage. Again, an advantage both for counterjungling and even retreating to my own jungle.

And another payoff of taking bug: the speed boost. If the enemy jungler comes, I sacrifice a quick smite and I'm standing in the middle of a spot where I can outrun him no matter what. And yes, I say standing in the middle, because as Yi I can control where the bug goes with a combination of positioning and judicious use of alpha strike, which repositions me versus a single target.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 5, 20161 votes

once you master a champion, that champion doesnt magically become stronger but you simply are able to bring forth of the power he had anyways. master yi doesnt have alot of power early in the game and he really only gets dangerous once he completed 2-3 items. before that, a decent handful of junglers are stronger than him and a few of them also clear faster.
you always have more gold once you stolen camps? you know, theoretically stealing camps is not possible. "stealing" always means they didnt see you and/or didnt react to it which is a cheese strategy and not valid. if you have powerspikes over your opponents jungler, thats when you can take his camps. when does master yi have powerspikes over which junglers? not too early over not too many.
baiting noobs isnt a valid strategy either. also, its not "master yi specific" or anything even tho hes pretty good at baiting noobs. river is very dangerous because of how little control you have over it early on. later in the game it sure doesnt fucking matter anymore but before lvl 6 its extremely dangerous because its especially hard to predict if the enemy jungler is hanging around here or not. i mean, in the jungle he will only be if he wants to farm but in the river he can always be for multiple purposes. also, cant everyone control where the crab goes? its like not magical or anything.
yis problem is that he has weak phases in which he needs to farm because he is absolutely not combat ready and in these phases many champions can force him out of his jungle and deny his farm so the time he takes to bridge his powerdrop extends and you can continuously extend this until he gets fed from killing noobs but from his own strength he will never reach a state in which he becomes dangerous. he doesnt have that power. this means, in the end hes a cheese champion.

edit: just after writing this post, i played a game vs master yi jungle and i demonstrated perfectly well how to play against him. zero cheesing involved, 100% safe, calculated play, no risks taken, no openings given. completely annihilated. enjoy.

http://www.replay.gg/ajax/replay_batch/2462941580/euw

KazymandiasJan 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xA4KGUKW,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-05T17:56:44.574+0000)

once you master a champion, that champion doesnt magically become stronger but you simply are able to bring forth of the power he had anyways. master yi doesnt have alot of power early in the game and he really only gets dangerous once he completed 2-3 items. before that, a decent handful of junglers are stronger than him and a few of them also clear faster.

Of course the champ doesn't become stronger, but you become stronger with him.

And if you're better with your champ than your opponent, then your champ is stronger than his. Recently, I've been terrorizing the curious flood of Lee Sins, a jungler who should be able to easily counterjungle Yi, and counters Yi directly. But I'm finding that I almost always can out-counterjungle them, and out duel them because of it.

And no, played correctly Yi has a huge advantage well before 6. It's 2.5 items before you can leave the jungle and hypercarry, but if you're skilled with Yi you can terrorize most opposing jungle champs even immediately after your leash. Again, simply baiting with meditate can be enough to win a duel with anyone who doesn't have hard CC left at that point in the fight. They hard CC you and get ahead in health. Your alpha strike is on cooldown. When they feel sure to kill you, you meditate...while it's going on, your alpha strike comes back up. If they are dumb enough to stay, you don't use it until it'll kill them. If they flee, you use it as a gap closer IF they can outrun you, which they probably can't, because you have the second highest base runspeed.

you always have more gold once you stolen camps? you know, theoretically stealing camps is not possible. "stealing" always means they didnt see you and/or didnt react to it which is a cheese strategy and not valid. if you have powerspikes over your opponents jungler, thats when you can take his camps. when does master yi have powerspikes over which junglers? not too early over not too many.

First, the idea that something effective is "cheesing" in League is a childish copout. It's the same as people who claim that Yi is an OP "noob champ". I hypercarry, and weak-minded opponents announce this. But when the higher elos don't do/play something, it's NEVER because it's too easy. They will do/play anything that wins. The problem with Yi is that he's very hard to win with at higher elo. If something you consider "cheese" won games, the best players would all be doing it, not avoiding it.

Second, stealing camps gives me a gold advantage. How hard would that be to understand? He has one less camp to farm, lowering his potential gold production. And I can skip from bug to his jungler faster than crossing over mid. AND I have an extra camp on my side, which can matter because my camp clear is sometimes so great that I run out of camps, at times when the lanes don't need ganks and I'm working on snowballing via farm.

Really, only a handful of junglers are NOT weak to a skilled early Yi, unless the opponent is unusually strong with his own champ. Mainly it's Udyr. As I mentioned, Lee Sin should be another, but I know how to deal with him early levels.

baiting noobs isnt a valid strategy either. also, its not "master yi specific" or anything even tho hes pretty good at baiting noobs. river is very dangerous because of how little control you have over it early on. later in the game it sure doesnt fucking matter anymore but before lvl 6 its extremely dangerous because its especially hard to predict if the enemy jungler is hanging around here or not. i mean, in the jungle he will only be if he wants to farm but in the river he can always be for multiple purposes.

Seriously using "noob" for a level 30 player is the most noob thing you can do.

You have GREAT control over river early on. You can get almost a complete view with a single ward, and of course you control it once you kill the bug. As I said, if you have a decent team you are also in an unusually safe position, because it's quicker for them to respond there than if you're even in your own jungle.

What you are saying is that YOU find river dangerous early on, not that it has to be. I only ever die in early river if I choose to risk overstaying when an enemy appears and I'm not sure I can duel him. And that's not "danger", that's my own choice.

also, cant everyone control where the crab goes? its like not magical or anything.

You can only control crab to the extent that your abilities allow you to change position around it or otherwise control it. I find it especially easy to trap it stuttering against a wall with Rammus, because of Q plus E, but Yi is high on the list, because a well-timed alpha strike often will often make it change direction predictably.

yis problem is that he has weak phases in which he needs to farm because he is absolutely not combat ready and in these phases many champions can force him out of his jungle and deny his farm so the time he takes to bridge his powerdrop extends and you can continuously extend this until he gets fed from killing noobs but from his own strength he will never reach a state in which he becomes dangerous. he doesnt have that power. this means, in the end hes a cheese champion.

Again, that is the "noob" interpretation of Yi. He's faceroll, he has weak times when he can't do anything but farm, when he's fed he's cheese, et cetera.

But among the grownups, Yi is much more complex. Meditanking and properly timing alpha strike are lost on most people playing (or opposing) him, as the most painfully obvious examples. With a very few exceptions like an Udyr who knows how to twist his stances, even a strong counter-jungler can be preempted. If you are counter-jungling when they are, then they're not driving you out of the jungle. I even use that against Udyr. My red is gone, but so is his. It's almost like we end up each owning one side of the mid split, instead of the river split.

edit: just after writing this post, i played a game vs master yi jungle and i demonstrated perfectly well how to play against him. zero cheesing involved, 100% safe, calculated play, no risks taken, no openings given. completely annihilated. enjoy.

First, once again it's positively childish to rule out something effective as "cheesing". The highest-tier players don't avoid things that work. If a certain "cheese" isn't used by them, it's because it's easy to break. Same with any champ they don't play.

Second, your link crashed the League client for me, but it's irrelevant, because certainly there are weak Yi players out there. That means nothing. I even have rare bad matches with Yi, myself. I see an enemy jungler who should counter me watching as I take bug, but don't want to waste my smite and pull out, and on a whim I risk trying to just finish bug, then get killed. Or my team doesn't respond to my ping. Or my team gives me no leash, or a bad leash that steals my level so I'm still 1, and in the first four minutes that makes ANY champ helpless against counterjungling...that sort of thing.

But that doesn't mean you can handle a really good Yi under normal conditions, who decides to counterjungle you preemptively, and knows how to meditank, how to avoid cc with alpha strike, how to use his higher runspeed as more of an advantage than you realize it is, has a team who responds at least as well to pings (or map awareness) as yours, and so on.

In fact, everything you've said so far makes me feel pretty confident that you as an opposing jungler would be easy to beat with Yi, in a typical match. You have all the "noob" preconceptions about him, and about the game in general.

Post Scriptum: I almost forgot to mention that an embarrassing proportion of players still don't realize that Hunter's Potion is the biggest jungle game changer since Machete. You either fully exploit that, or ANYONE who does will probably beat you, regardless of the champ matchup.