Veigar had a reliable AOE stun that's always up and can follow up with massive burst.

I will never trust the community again after what happened with Ahri.

And aren't you happy that I'm not asking for anything, because I'd probably be wrong too.

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Doesn't matter how fast her rotation is, once she uses the stun, it takes 6s to charge under perfect conditions (3 Q that kill + E), if she could not get cs, that's 12s (3 Q + E), 8s if she uses a W, but then her rotation shorts a spell and have inferior DPS.

Realistically Annie could not zone people without losing tons of CS.

And AA range does not make you a good cs-er, just a safer one, idk about you, but most streamers still miss cs as adc (who has better AD), "CS just fine" w/ 50 AD is an overstatement, or you are claiming to be better than top-tier adc.

If you felt it was worth using your spell to farm the minions than odds heavily favor 6 seconds not being a make or break moment unless you got seriously out of position while unprepared for some reason. You don't even need her spells in the first place to last hit as she has one of the best auto attack ranges in the entire game. Realistically, she doesn't have to have her stun up 24/7 until she is about ready to make a move and due to her long auto range and the factor that if she is simply farming at the time or zoning without overextending her stun wouldn't be necessary in the first place, majority of the time. Throw in wards, flash, her E, blah, etc. and it really isn't an issue.

A lot of champions aren't going to have significantly better AD than Annie and you can always take AD reds on her to make this easier, which isn't uncommon for champs like Swain, and others. Swain, Anivia, and several other champs often farm only with autos to last hit and prevent from over pushing unless they are preparing to leave lane, too. Exception being to reset lane and back, etc. Jinx, for example, has 3 more AD than Annie early on prior to runes (which already stated can be ran on her as well, like some other spell casters for farm/harass purposes). Realistically, Annie can zone extremely well without losing a ton of CS and you are trying to make her out as being largely different than many other champs. You will not hard engage in that 6+ second window thus not needing the stun unless you are overextended and didn't bother to ward and flash is down, assuming mid or top. Bot she harasses just fine and is a very successful bot champ.

Lastly, it seems you did not properly read the post I replied too which talked about pushing her to her tower and her being unable to push back. If she is under her tower she doesn't need her stun, its that simple. She is free to push back with her abilities. The person quoted a completely nonsense scenario that wouldn't realistically happen against anyone but a new player, or shouldn't.

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Well you are correct in your points if it is laning phase. However once you transition into team fights the short transition time between stuns can be the difference between a won or lost team fight. However on the same note holding onto the stun when you need wave clear well they are at your turret seiging can be the difference of a tower. Viegar isn't ever punished for holding onto his stun. He can be punished for misuseing his stun but never for holding onto it.

Annie's tibbers is better period. However viegars stun was more reliable in the sense that you could use it more frequently at longer range and from a safer position with out having to commit. If you really want to go into the details viegars unreliable damage on w and only single target burst made him quite a bit weaker then annie. He wasn't really able to support because you need more then an aoe stun. However he wasn't particularly able to mid because other champions had better team fight and other champions had more mobile single target burst. Viegar was trying to fill a niche that was already filled up with better champs. Back to annie. She did not have the weaknesses of viegar because she has massive aoe damage. substantial amount more utility and as you said a long attack range.

Veigar's stun is also significantly less potent than Annie's until he has almost max CD and max level E. Even then it is only better then hers in specific situations and demands a much longer drawn out fight to see these benefits. This is where I definitely agree with the longer range and safer position of his stun, but against some champs it is also completely NULL at this range and can no longer be reliable. It also means he can't abuse it offensively at the longer ranges because his stun range completely outstrips his other abilities in terms of range even with the long stun time, showing Veig's largest weakness of his short Q/R range.

It seems like you get the general gist of what is going on and your first post and the one you replied too, originally, were just broad general statements that could have been better elaborated on.

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liss isnt instant

it is i believe .4 seconds

same thing for the most part,it's not like you can miss it.

Also just want to note that Veigar's E doesn't do damage, unlike Annie's abilities.

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Yes , annie cant match Veigars stun range , but veigar cant even think about covering the area annie covers with any of those 2 spells, he has more range, but less tankiness and he is less likely to stun more than 1-3 players.

That said: i wouldnt mind annie getting 200 more range for a .75 delay on her aoe skills. (actually i would , some shit is okay as it is, even if it doesnt have a lot of counterplay)

I agree. In practice Annie is way easier to apply than veigar is. However riot doesn't always balance based on general ease. In some cases they go after the best case scenarios with veigar stun being a primary example. It's so hard to screw up annie stun I can't even think about it. Where if veigar screws up it could mean he is dead. I just don't see a way riot can fix annie without utterly destroying her. Hell we have seen the results of a counterplay addition for this instant stun problem. Veigar got it and now a day hasn't gone past without people thinking it is one of the worst balance decisions riot games has ever made. So my question is why do people want riot to do something to annie too when we should know it's most likely going to make her just as terrible. I feel bad for the veigar players but save the children!

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wocMwsXg,comment-id=0002000100010000,timestamp=2015-03-08T16:47:20.505+0000)

Thanks for that list. My lack of playing these guys has shown greatly.

[{quoted}](name=BuCkeT SeiZureS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wocMwsXg,comment-id=0002000200010000,timestamp=2015-03-08T20:52:48.195+0000)

You are wrong about a few things.

I'm not seeing how that post was wrong. I listed things veigar can do with his stun and durations the walls last. You didn't exactly give me a context for what was wrong there you just said you are wrong and that was it then you went on about something completely unrelated. I literally didn't even post about his delay or his teamfighting. If your post was meant to be a rebuttal then I don't get how arguing something completely different then what I was posting about helps here. I even stated that when you have 0 mobility options you will be stuck inside. Obviously people with mobility skills will be able to escape it. I would actually like to know if tier two boots alone let me walk from the center of the ring outside before it goes off. My mind is telling me no but I would like a video just to see it. I havent actually seen veigar played much since the change.