Why are tanks balanced around them dying so fast late game

Chess1·Feb 7, 2017·54 votes·4,270 views

items Negate 45% armor can negate a lot of the gold spent by a tank late game is the same except mages have large cool downs on the ability's(except for ) this makes tanks need to have overloaded kits if they wanna survive late game high damage for a tank great stat thats percentage reduction on ult Insane amounts of damage on q w passive is an insane stat ball(both have great utility and laning phases) Many more but most consider those divers( build mostly tank)

this means the only way for tanks to feel impactful is to get ahead which makes it so the tank gets super beefy before they can buy pen items Which is definitely not heallthy because it makes tanks feel super overloaded or op even though its the only way they work

68 Comments

AhristocatsFeb 7, 201730 votes

welcome to league of legends

where offense outscales defense

making tanks only viable if they have offense

Gallows madnessFeb 7, 20171 votes

What about mundo? He is scary as hell but goes full tank!

you want 300 ad? say no more! build full tank and stack health!

AhristocatsFeb 7, 20173 votes

Yes mundo does a lot of damage while going full tank, he can almost do as much damage as a carry in late game no joke

but he's trash atm because of his early/mid game

FalconPawwwwnchFeb 7, 20172 votes

Doesn't matter if his early/mid is good

Mortal Reminder turns Mundo into a joke

Legit any decent bruiser type champ with mortal reminder will demolish mundo late game

EndlessSorcererFeb 7, 201718 votes

Mundo is a Juggernaut, not a tank.

Also, Mortal Reminder screws him late-game.

CowseedFeb 7, 20172 votes

And item 3123 screws him ealry

BlakiepugFeb 7, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wjFOWGx0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-02-07T11:03:18.679+0000)

welcome to league of legends

where offense outscales defense

making tanks only viable if they have offense

This pretty much sums up the tank meta...

5000000000000000Feb 7, 20173 votes

When tank meta doesn't mean "tanks are unkillable" but rather "tanks are now bruisers with more tankiness"

AnidanFeb 8, 20172 votes

I don't think people have a problem with the concept of offense outscaling defense (since it should eventually) I think the main problem is how fast it does that, and through what method. It outscales it not only by raw effectiveness, but also by cutting the effectiveness of tank stats to double dip into that with certain items. That shouldn't be the case. Tank stats should be valuable in the late-game, and a properly built late-game carry should tear through them, the problem is that now "proper" means "invalidating the enemy tank stats entirely instead of muscling past them."

AhristocatsFeb 8, 20171 votes

defense shouldn't outscale offense offense shouldn't outscale defense

both should have a chance to outplay the other

Sir FuzziFeb 8, 20171 votes

The problem with 'defense outplay' is that 'I bought enough armor to chill here while you go DBZ on me' isn't outplaying.

Stunning at the right times, cutting off channels and escapes, nixing mobility and cutting off escapes are outplaying.

More importantly, if you have defense, you're probably there to set up for your offense-- not to cancel out their offense.

This reminds me of the full tank Sejuani who wondered why the 7-second fight against Jhin went poorly. I suggested it was because they decided to spend 7 seconds deciding whether or not Jhin was going to have control in a situation he could predict 100%.

The problem is that the bursty assassin got a lot of love because supports became piss babies who couldn't stand not having a cut of the action. Now your support is better off being a bursty assassin or mage with stun, because death is the best heal and the best CC.

Frankly, I'd be more offended but crafty supportive play tickles my fancy.

AhristocatsFeb 8, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Fuzzi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wjFOWGx0,comment-id=0004000200000000,timestamp=2017-02-08T10:09:23.738+0000)

The problem with 'defense outplay' is that 'I bought enough armor to chill here while you go DBZ on me' isn't outplaying.

because right now armor is so easy to get, and in exchange it gets outscales by offense

take dota for example, no one outscales the other but both are hard to buy 10 armor=50 armor in league= 1500 gold in league it costs 800 gold

IceKingChernobogFeb 8, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wjFOWGx0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-02-07T11:03:18.679+0000)

welcome to league of legends

where offense outscales defense

making tanks only viable if they have offense

Darius Illaoi Hecarim All hail the "Tanks"

LankPantsFeb 7, 201717 votes

%pen is such a retarded concept. It's something that should have never been in the game in the first place. Having an item that's just "remove 5k gold worth of stats from an enemy champion" is not OK.

SkorchFeb 7, 20174 votes

It takes a full Armor Pen/Lethality build to so that

LankPantsFeb 7, 20177 votes

5K is probably an exaggeration, but just removing almost half of the stat you built with a single item is way too much. LDR normally negates around 2k worth of armour off a tank in a realistic situation, which is absurd considering it also gives 50AD and a 15% damage boost in almost any case. It would be absurd even if it didn't give anything else TBH. It's not OK to just ignore the intended strength of another class, which is what LDR does. Tanks should always be hard to kill.

SkorchFeb 7, 20172 votes

I mean LDR is meant to do that, it is THE strongest Pen item. And i dont think its quite that much even with just LDR.

And pen is perfectly fine being in the game. Counters need counter. Without ANY pen being in the game tanks would be too monsterous.

Now that also means riot probably shouldnt have enough items for you to build an ENTIRE BUILD off pen, there are just too much lethality. Assassins like it yes but let them build other things Riot.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 7, 20171 votes

So does that mean tanks should have a counter to the damage counter to their counter defense?

Spaceman5pffFeb 7, 20173 votes

I would like it if tanks had proactive ways to mitigate incoming damage. They shouldn't be able to tank it if they mess up.

A good example could be like if Sejuani were to generate shielding per enemy hit with her W flail. It would be a way to reward her for good dives and getting on lots of people, while giving clear counterplay of space out and kite.

Right now she just... gains armor for hitting a target via her passive, kinda boring.

This is purely theoretical but I hope it gets the idea across. Tanking ability should be shifted from raw stats into executing play patterns. Maokai is a great example of this with his passive: getting MASSIVE healing for staying in the fight near spellcasts.

Colossus is also a great idea of this concept, granted it is designed poorly.

SkorchFeb 7, 20172 votes

A counter, counter, counter? maybe.

http://940ee6dce6677fa01d25-0f55c9129972ac85d6b1f4e703468e6b.r99.cf2.rackcdn.com/products/pictures/391348.jpg

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/e7/e7633bedf897bb24ce668ac9c5df6bf88a58ff7e114d27606a756f4c4888a3f1.jpg

4th3t0sFeb 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

A counter, counter, counter? maybe.

http://940ee6dce6677fa01d25-0f55c9129972ac85d6b1f4e703468e6b.r99.cf2.rackcdn.com/products/pictures/391348.jpg

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/e7/e7633bedf897bb24ce668ac9c5df6bf88a58ff7e114d27606a756f4c4888a3f1.jpg

http://toyaju.net/shop3/p_image/20637p1.jpg

SkorchFeb 7, 20171 votes

http://orig15.deviantart.net/cb6e/f/2009/196/0/d/magic_alter___banefire_by_stsung.jpg

Has nothing to do with topic, I just love this card

Spaceman5pffFeb 7, 20175 votes

The standard AD build on this patch: item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 item 3071 item 3036 will remove around 4k gold worth of defensive stats.

If a target has ~400 armor total, that build will negate 110% of the targets purchased armor (for the user, not for allies)

So say the enemy team is full AD and you build item 3068 item 3143 item 3742 item 3047 to counter them: SURPRISE YOU HAVE ABOUT 100 ARMOR NOW IF YOU ARE LUCKY

DarkSunSovereignFeb 7, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Mig89Feb 7, 20171 votes

Theyre talking gold worth. Negating 200 armor is around 2k gold worth of armor items

Glory ln DeathFeb 7, 20174 votes

Armor is worth 20 gold per point, so 200 armor is actually worth 4k gold. Which is a lot...

Mig89Feb 7, 20171 votes

I didnt know the real number. I was just throwing out an example.

DarkSunSovereignFeb 7, 20171 votes

Fuck I need to read.

DeusVultFeb 7, 20174 votes

I get where you are gcoming from, but league has always had this same sort of timeline for games

Early game is a champ/skill matchup -----> Mid game is where tanks/bruisers shine with their base damages and tank items while carries dont have the gold and items to outscale them yet -----> Late game carries kill everything because they have the items to do so. protect your carry.

Thats pretty much how league has always worked, the people crying about a "tank meta" atm are dumb because games end faster, which means they ed during the tanks powerspike instead of the carries

Ben SharpioFeb 7, 20173 votes

well, what you also need to take into account is the fact that most of the tanks that are "op" right now have very reliable ways of making people stop outputting damage. Like nautilus constantly stunning you/slowing you from where you want to go, maokai constantly rooting you and knocking you back, vi locking you down completely ect. I think being a tank has more to it than just "i built full tank items now i should be invincible". This is why you pretty much only see nautilus/maokai/poppy in LCS. There are too many tanks that don't have reliable/non-telegraphed CC to stop ADC's from outputting damage.

h5LYF41LamFeb 7, 20173 votes

They are not balanced around dying fast in the late game. THEY ARE BALANCED AROUND DYING FAST IN LATE GAME BY ADCs. Big diference bro.

Duke AnaxFeb 7, 20171 votes

Exactly, the idea is that between CC and Burst the ADC shouldn't be around long enough to even Attack the Tank.

h5LYF41LamFeb 7, 20171 votes

if the tank engages with no follow up he gets cut off from his team and dies. if the tank engages right he ccs the adc till help comes.thats all there is.

ModAcademy KaynFeb 7, 20172 votes

Because Tanks optimal time is Mid Game. If you let it get to late game, tanks do fall off because of the fact of intense Armor pen. Adc's are meant to shred through Tanks late, because that is their job.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 7, 20173 votes

I think the issue is that games end mid game and tanks still get slaughtered then.

HateDaddyFeb 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I think the issue is that games end mid game and tanks still get slaughtered then.

no they don't lmao

ZephyrDrakeFeb 7, 20172 votes

Maokai has an overloaded kit now? ok

RavenMagusFeb 7, 20171 votes

Not overloaded, just overtuned

DunkinNoobsFeb 8, 20172 votes

Because hard CC scales exceptionally well with game time and tanks have the most. If they also got to be super tanky late game, every team would bring 3+ tanks every single game. You may remember this is Season 5, in fact.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 7, 20171 votes

Because they are pretty damn tough to kill from around 5 minutes to 30.

In order to keep 45+ minute games from being a wet noodle fight and potentially stalling out the game for 60+ minutes, there needs to be tank busting items in the game. I like the fact that ADCs are the best scaling - if you let them get to their lategame builds, they shred through anything. You have 30 minutes to do something about that beforehand.

Now, ADCs reaching their powerspike early is an entirely different debate. But I dont think the scaling of ADCs into lategame monsters is a problem.

AmazoXFeb 7, 20171 votes

Adcs don't get into late game and become monsters anymore, You call your SWAT back-up, Mid laner & Jungler come bot and they g@ng b@ng the enemy bot laner, Bot tower has no fortification buff like the other towers in the mid & top lane, You get the enemy,tower,Drake, You get first blood tower as well. And that's how the meme shines brighter than the sun aka. ''Adc's in 2k17 LUL''

ChaoticPineconeFeb 8, 20171 votes

"Not being a lategame monster" and "not getting to lategame" are two different things. ADCs who build crit are still lategame monsters IF they get there.

And when they get there, tanks get shredded pretty quickly, which is the point of the thread in the first place. Whats the point of playing an ADC if you take a crapton of farm to scale into nothing?

teemotank engineFeb 7, 20171 votes

I suggest

Tank items reduce offensive Bruiser items increase lifesteal Adc items true damage/%hp damage Assassin items increase mobility Mage items increase burst Support itemization is fine at the moment maybe more buff type items to use allies

Reduce lifesteal effect on adcs (glass cannon) Reduce mobility bruisers and mages For tanks Increase mobility and cc duration and weaken armor pen and magic pen

Mecha MaIphiteFeb 7, 20171 votes

items Negate 45% armor

Bonus armor

Pretty important distinction, considering that the difference between the two can be as much as 40-45 armor.

FriusFeb 7, 20171 votes

item 3035 35% bonus not 45% total .l2 read

rtbf76109271Feb 7, 20171 votes

Because games need to end which means tanks need to die more easily later in the game. A game where a lv6 tank vs lv6 adc looked the same as a lv18 adv vs lv18 tank is a game you do not want. Picture 70 minute games where after 4 full on teamfights, only tanks lived and couldnt end the game. You want that?