How I would Fix Zoe

iiGazeii··1 votes·1,986 views

Zoe

Zoe is one of League’s newest and most despised champions for several reasons, but she is one of my personal favorites and probably my favorite midlane champion. Her unique set of abilities and mechanics as well as strong trickster themes make her a blast to play. However, I understand that she is simply frustrating to play against even if the Zoe player is bad, enough that the devs are currently working on adjusting her.

If I were in charge of Zoe’s gameplay, my goals would be the following:

  1. Reduce the impact that Spell Thief random drops have on her laning phase, but smooth out the usefulness and consistency of it to make them worth picking up without straight-up winning her lane for her.
  2. Significantly reduce the damage she can deal after missing every ability, while maintaining her power if she can land them.
  3. Reward Zoe for landing abilities and autos with her enemy in sustained trades.
  4. Solidify her place in the role of a roaming control mage.

Something like this:

More Sparkles!

  • Damage reduced to 10 - 93 (based on level) (+ 15% AP) from 10 - 124 (based on level) (+20% AP) bonus magic damage. However, this empowered attack gains an additional 50 range.

  • Even More Sparkles! - If Zoe hits an enemy champion with an ability, the duration is refreshed and the bonus damage is doubled. Hitting an enemy champion with the Even More Sparkles! empowered attack increases Zoe’s movement speed by 30%, decaying over 1 second.

Comments: These changes are intended to reward Zoe for landing abilities as well as weaving in auto attacks, enhancing the feel of her being a playful trickster with the ability to kite. The damage is much lower if Zoe fails to hit a champion with her ability, but the increased range lets her last-hit more safely. If she does land an ability on a champion, the damage is enhanced, and hitting a champion with that empowered attack lets her move away from them or chase/reposition for the next spell.

Spell Thief

  • Damage per orb reduced to 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 (+10% AP) from 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 (+13.3% AP)

  • If all three orbs hit an enemy champion, Zoe’s next ability within 10 seconds (except Spell Thief) costs no mana.

  • The Wheeeee passive now triggers off of Zoe’s own active items.

  • In combat, the bonus movement speed from Wheeeee is equal to +50% / +55% / +60% / +65% / +70%, and lasts for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds.

  • Out of combat, the bonus movement speed is reduced to +20% / +22.5% / +25% / +27.5% /+30%, but the duration is 10 seconds.

  • The balloons carried by minions no longer contain Summoner Spells or active item effects. Instead, they have a unique Spell Shard specific to the type of minion.

  • Melee minions carry Minor Heal, healing Zoe for 7.5 HP every half second for 5 seconds (75 HP)

  • Caster minions carry Minor Clarity, restoring 7.5 mana every half second for 5 seconds (75 mana)

  • Siege minions and super minions carry Trickster’s Sight, letting Zoe see (note: not reveal) enemy wards within 1500 range of her for 10 seconds. As long as a ward is seen in this way and for 5 seconds after being seen in this way, Zoe gains its vision as though it were her ward.

  • Every second minion wave (starting with the second wave) will have a minion with a balloon, in a predictable pattern.

  • For the first 20 minutes of the game, the pattern is:

    • Caster -> Melee -> Cannon
  • After 20 minutes, the pattern is:

    • Caster -> Cannon -> Melee -> Cannon
  • After 35 minutes, only cannon minions and super minions will carry balloons.

  • If one of Zoe’s allies last-hits a minion that Zoe has damaged in the last 10 seconds, it will still drop the Spell Shard.

Comments: This may seem complicated, but it’s actually rather straightforward. These changes remove the RNG power spike from Spell Thief minion drops, lowers the point-and-click damage of the orbs, and lets the movement speed of Spell Thief be more useful depending on the situation.

One of the most frustrating things about laning against Zoe is that even if you’re smart and conserve your Summoners to prevent her from using them against you, she may pick one up off a minion and use it to bully you out of lane or kill you anyway. These changes make the Spell Shards dropped by minions a bit more tame, but still reward Zoe for staying in lane and claiming those shards. Melees and Casters give Zoe extra sustain, while cannons give Zoe vision control, giving her more power to avoid ganks or roam if she successfully claims both a cannon and its shard. The goal is to add consistency to what Zoe has access to in the laning phase, so both her and her opponents understand exactly what’s at stake when contesting a balloon last-hit. In the late game, Zoe will be getting mostly the vision shard from minions, but that’s when the flat healing and mana from the other shards has started to fall off, anyway.

The damage of the orbs has also been decreased, but they offer Zoe more utility, giving her a free spell so that she can stay in lane longer, push the wave without sacrificing mana, or make sure she can put an enemy jungler to sleep if she gets ganked on low mana. It puts emphasis on Zoe landing her abilities to deal damage, instead of depending on the orbs themselves to do it for her.

The change to the movement speed bonus makes it more versatile. If she uses it while in combat, she gets a burst of movement speed that is useful for dodging a skillshot, escaping a gank, or extending the reach of Paddle Star. Out of combat, it gives her sustained movement speed for rotating around the map or getting back to lane faster. If her combat state changes, the movement speed and duration adjusts. For example, if she uses it at Rank 5 out of combat, she would gain 30% additional movement speed for up to 10 seconds. If she enters combat with 5 seconds remaining, the movement speed would increase to 70%, but would only last an additional 1 second.

There's also some quality-of-life changes to encourage Zoe’s build diversity and make it less frustrating when your jungler comes to gank and squashes the minion that had a balloon. If Zoe wants to build items like item 3030 , item 3157 , or item 3040 , she can get her Spell Thief trigger off of them just as well as an enemy using them, and prevents her allies from accidentally (or purposefully) denying her Spell Thief triggers.

Sleepy Trouble Bubble

  • The trap formed no longer applies the sleep to the first enemy who walks into it.
  • Instead, enemies inside the circle are slowed, scaling up to the maximum slow over 1.4 seconds. Whenever Zoe deals magic damage to an enemy within the circle, they take additional true damage equal to the post-mitigation damage dealt, up to 12 / 20 / 28 / 38 / 44 (+8% AP).

Comments: These changes make Sleepy Trouble Bubble much less forgiving. If Zoe misses, enemies won’t be hit by the full sleep after it splats on the ground next to them. Instead, Zoe gets a form of zone control and enhanced waveclear. She can drop the trap at a choke point to slow the enemy’s engage or escape, or cleverly drop it in front of a minion wave to amplify her damage against it. This lets her shove waves into towers faster and control space in late-game teamfights. The damage is not very high and the zone is not very big, so it’s usually more optimal to put someone to sleep and chunk them, but this version has much more utility at all stages of the game than the previous one without being as frustrating for her opponents.

Overall, Zoe’s kit would be more focused on actually landing skillshots and dancing out of range of your enemy, like a playful trickster who is always one step ahead of the opposition. She has enhanced movement speed and stronger lane sustain, but only if she actively fights her enemy, contesting last-hits on balloon-toting minions and landing her spells and autos on enemy champions. Her ability to roam and gank has also been improved with the out-of-combat movement speed granted by Spell Thief, but she has to depend on her ability to outtrade and outskill the enemy midlaner in order to get the opportunity to roam, instead of getting a free Summoner off the minion wave and winning lane for free.

22 Comments

Vapor Wave Vibes2 votes

I have a faster and easier solution to fix zoe than this. Delete her

Unstoppable Monk2 votes

That's a good start.

iiGazeii2 votes

There's no way that's ever going to happen. There's too much investment put into Zoe to simply delete her from the game, no matter how much people dislike her. Zed and Yasuo are still in the game, and they're even more hated than Zoe. It's not a fast or easy decision for a company like Riot to make.

Would you still hate playing against Zoe if she:

  • Couldn't get champion-grade Summoners or active item effects off of minions?

  • Couldn't get a sleep on you unless she hits the skillshot dead-on?

  • Had less point-and-click damage in general?

Crownless Exalt1 votes

I would debate zed, but zoe is climbing above yasuo in hate IMO.

iiGazeii1 votes

Alrighty. It's strange, because her winrate is not that good. I could totally understand if she was a totally broken OP champ on top of being annoying, but she currently has about a 45% winrate.

If she were to get changes like the ones I detailed in the original post, would you find Zoe more fun to play against?

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

There's no way that's ever going to happen. There's too much investment put into Zoe to simply delete her from the game, no matter how much people dislike her. Zed and Yasuo are still in the game, and they're even more hated than Zoe. It's not a fast or easy decision for a company like Riot to make.

Would you still hate playing against Zoe if she:

  • Couldn't get champion-grade Summoners or active item effects off of minions?

  • Couldn't get a sleep on you unless she hits the skillshot dead-on?

  • Had less point-and-click damage in general?

you are essentially deleting her. Why would I pick Zoe over anyone with these changes? all they do is destroy her damage "unless you land a skill" guess what? that is never a good choice for any champion. Ziggs can do a lot of damage if you land his spells... too bad he is almost always mediocre at best since he barely lands any of his abilities and his main use is just a cheesy "let's kill turrets fast" thing that anyone could do regardless

iiGazeii1 votes

These changes reduce her damage but give her:

  • Better range (bonus range on passive, more movement speed for Q redirects)

  • More mobility (kiting on passive, adaptive stronger movement speed from W, more frequent shard drops)

  • More sustain (free potions/vision from balloons, free spells)

This is just an idea, not a set list of changes. The numbers are just placeholders. If she needs more passive damage or Q damage, those are simple number changes. The goal was to reduce how frustrating she is to play against to make room for buffs to what makes her fun.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

These changes reduce her damage but give her:

  • Better range (bonus range on passive, more movement speed for Q redirects)

  • More mobility (kiting on passive, adaptive stronger movement speed from W, more frequent shard drops)

  • More sustain (free potions/vision from balloons, free spells)

This is just an idea, not a set list of changes. The numbers are just placeholders. If she needs more passive damage or Q damage, those are simple number changes. The goal was to reduce how frustrating she is to play against to make room for buffs to what makes her fun.

so why would I pick her? she already has more than enough range so adding more does very little. Adding more mobility also does nothing for her when you give her more range. Yeah because sustain is something that people find fun and exciting. Thanks for doing nothing but destroy her and having nobody pick her.

iiGazeii1 votes

Because she's fun to play and unique.

Because when she does land her skillshots, these changes improve her damage.

Because her ability to steal summoners makes her difficult to all-in on or out-trade

Because the movement speed + range buffs let her poke like nobody else. A Q into a long-range auto could chunk somebody and give Zoe the speed to make sure the enemy doesn't hit her back.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Because she's fun to play and unique.

Because when she does land her skillshots, these changes improve her damage.

Because her ability to steal summoners makes her difficult to all-in on or out-trade

Because the movement speed + range buffs let her poke like nobody else. A Q into a long-range auto could chunk somebody and give Zoe the speed to make sure the enemy doesn't hit her back.

in other words there is no point in picking her

ZephyrDrake2 votes

so in other words "don't bother picking zoe since every single other champion will do what she can but way better"

Psyrix1 votes

Zoe isn’t a roaming “control mage” tho. She’s a burst mage with some Zoning by nature of her E. That’s why the suggested change that ends up removing her trap will hit her very hard, it’s her only source of zone control because everything else is a thin, linear skillshot. Even the identity of a roamer is abit questionable because she relies on items/summoner spells to fulfill that aspect. She can roam, just as most midlanders should and would... but doesn’t have anything like Taliyah, A.Sol or Talon that reliably justifies this labeling.

Simplest change that could be made is leaving the spawn system as is, giving Zoe weaker versions of the items/summoners and decreasing the time in which she can hold onto a shard. (Personally I’d also need the movespeed she gets). Ignite, as an independent identity, requires nerfs... something that has been consistently requested independently of Zoe. Other than that Zoe can be zoned away from them, something that players need to realize. Prevent her from securing the last hit, prevent her from picking up the shard (by threatening and dealing damage if she insists on retrieving the shard) and back away from her if she has a particularly offensive shard (in this instance nerfs to duration in which she may retain a shard is very understandable)... a conditional restriction from casting the same summoner in quick succession would be good too (e.g. so she can’t fire two ignites immediately).

The changes u suggested to her W will likely require a nerf/changes to her base stats.

The changes to passive... I’m curious about, I don’t think she should get a movespeed buff tbh, but “even more sparkles” confuses me a bit... I think it’s saying if she doesn’t hit a champion with an ability it is weaker than current version, if she hits an enemy it becomes the same as live. Which would be great. But I don’t think she should get the extra range.

E changes... I wouldn’t really say are... “bad”. But I think number changes to the current E would balance it more... something like decreasing the time that the trap persists, decreasing its size. Making it deal less damage once it’s a trap. Missing it doesn’t usually reward Zoe because most people don’t immediately walk into it if “missed“. I’ll intentionally place it in a certain area with the intent of it being a trap. Giving Zoe that AoE might be a hidden buff but idk. Sleep is balanced around the fact that if she pops it the enemy will awaken but she deals more damage, if she doesn’t pop it she gets a good CC. The thing is...most people stopped complaining about the E a little while into her release... and sorta just accepted it after it was fixed (it was really the part where it couldn’t be cleansed when drowsy that was the main argument, this was fixed and idk how riot even let it through in the first place) It was only after W became broken then nerfed again that her entire kit was put into contention (lowkey a circlejerk). Maybe an amendment can be made that if she pops it the enemy gets a small burst of movespeed? Thereby emphasizing her weakness of getting dove on this making it more of a decision as to whether or not she should pop it. But might be problematic. Idk haha.

iiGazeii1 votes

I changed the passive damage to be only 25% lower than live without a champion hit, but 50% stronger with one.

These changes are supposed to be an overall buff to Zoe, reducing the impact of RNG on her power and her point-and-click damage when she doesn't land anything, but giving her more movement speed, sustain, and vision.

You seem to think that she'd need a nerf after these changes, other commenters seem to think this changes would only nerf her more. Interesting.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

Oh, so gut her damage even more, and nerf her W to oblivion.

iiGazeii1 votes

I get what you mean. I changed it so that the damage is only 25% lower than it is now, so when it doubles after a champion hit, it's actually better than live.

I feel like it's worth mentioning that these Spell Shards dropped by minions still trigger her W passive, giving her more movement speed, damage, and a free spell, on top of the free potion/vision. She would be getting a balloon every minute (instead of it being random). Out of combat at max rank, she'd essentially have a free Ghost with every W cast. Hextech Flashtraption or these more consistent shard drops would let her roam or get back to lane super-fast.

The numbers are just placeholders. If she needed damage put back into her Q or something to compensate, that's a simple change. The goal is to make her more consistent and less random and frustrating.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

It doesn't matter that her Q does slightly more damage if you land a damaging ability, it will deal less damage overall because A: her Q1 primes it, and a good Zoe will get the AA off for both Qs, and B: her ult primes it, without any actual damaging ability. Not only this, but her waveclear would be made even worse than it is now because she has to hit an enemy champion with an ability to get her extra damage per auto attack.

It also doesn't matter that her W still grants her movement speed and a tiny bit of damage (much less than live), the fact that her Heal is replaced by a 75 health potion, which doesn't scale at all, compared to it's current 90-345 health along with movement speed, and duplicated for her ally, sucks. Not to mention the other two actives she can get are just plain awful. Also, there's no way hextech flashtraption would make her get to lane/roam faster, she'd have to already not have her flash on her, and then stand still for about the amount of time she would save by using the spell. Plus if she's going for a roam, it gets put on a cooldown so she has no flash if things go sour.

iiGazeii1 votes

The heal is less because it is reliable. There are games where a minion might never drop a Heal, but this change ensures that every three minutes, you will get a minion that drops it.

The W deals less damage, but you can use it much more often, since you are guaranteed to get a balloon every minute in your lane, and it triggers off of your own actives as well.

Using Hextech Flashtraption would let her get back to lane faster, because even at rank 1, using it would give her +20% movement speed for 5 seconds. The flash isn't what's important, it's the W trigger.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

It doesn't matter that it's more reliable. If you took away her drops and gave her +50% base health/mana regen, that would not nearly make up for the other things she can get like Barrier, Protobelt, Cleanse, Redemption, etc. A good Zoe should be able to adapt to the drop she gets and make the most out of it.

Getting the W "more often" isn't a real tradeoff when the damage is approximately 40% less, the movement speed is abysmal early on, and the spells themselves have little to no impact on an actual fight. Being able to trigger it off your own actives causes problems, too, like a Zoe who buys protobelt + spellbinder + zhonya's now has access to 5 or 6 uses back to back, regardless of how many bubbles are in the nearby vicinity, each of which grants her her passive and free bubble damage, along with increased movement speed that would last forever.

The HexFlash wouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The 1-2.5 second channel costs her more than the +20% movement speed for 5 seconds gives. +20% for five seconds is equivalent to one second of travel time, which isn't taking into account soft movement speed caps. No one would max this ability first, too, so by the time it grants slightly more than it's channel time's worth you won't be needing it to get to lane, you'll be either saving it for going through walls or you'll be defending your Nexus because you chose weak ass Zoe. This is on top of the fact that it takes 20 seconds to cooldown, meaning even if the 200 units of flash distance was worth it to you, you couldn't even do it more than once. Not to mention she would actually have to take HexFlash as a rune.

iiGazeii1 votes

Getting a free Barrier or Ignite off the lane and "adapting" to it isn't skill, it's luck. The point of these changes is to remove that element of luck from Zoe's ability to lane.

I think you're seriously underestimating how often these Spell Shards would come up. You get one every other wave. I can't find any information on how often minions have balloons now, but it is much less often than once a minute. If it's once every three waves, that 40% damage decrease is only a slight nerf to the overall damage of the ability granted by balloons. Anything more than three, and it's a net buff to sustained damage. Plus, not having to buy as many potions or wards would go a long way towards saving gold for the items you want.

Would it be better if Minor Heal/Clarity both restored 10% of her maximum HP/mana rather than a flat amount (so they scale)?

C9 Bjergsen recommends HexFlash on Zoe because of the movement speed and extra W triggers.

https://youtu.be/VbPvCPI0C5I

I'll take him as an authority on the value of it. Still, your math checks out. Increasing the OOC movement speed duration to 10 seconds at all ranks would make it valuable even at level 1 for getting back to lane. At rank 1, it's basically half of a Ghost.

My thought is that after the sixth wave, both midlaners would be level 5. That wave has a cannon with Trickster's Sight, which is basically a super Oracle Lens. That is also the window when a good jungler wants to do their first gank (3:00-3:30). Zoe has a W cast that she can use to:

  • get vision of the surrounding jungle to avoid a gank right at the prime ganking window
  • base before your opponent hits 6, buy, and rush back to lane with the movement speed
  • roam bot or top to help them if they get ganked, with enhanced vision into the brush
Rathar Dashing1 votes

It's removing the RNG part of her kit but replacing it with nothing. Spell shards already appear pretty often as it is, as this doesn't solve that problem. A while back I made a post about how I would balance that, and it's by limiting the balloons to cannon minions, but make EVERY cannon minion drop them. This also works with scaling to late game, because the later you get the more frequently cannon minions spawn (and the point when they spawn every other wave sort of breaks your pattern of melee->caster->cannon every wave).

Even granting you that % based mana and health sustain would be better than a flat amount, the amount should instead scale with level if you want to do that. Even then, this kind of sustain would be even more annoying than getting a heal or a barrier every once in a blue.

That video you posted is quite a bit out of date, it was posted before the most recent gutting of Zoe's W damage and before they nerfed celerity and scorch. Not many players are maxing W first any more, which is something he said is popular, so taking hexflash would not be nearly as good now. I've tried hexflash myself, in various states of Zoe's W damage, and it just never felt right to me, I much prefer the scaling power of the sorcery secondary runes (I take domination primary).

As far as her W being used to grant vision, her ult already does that, so it's a pretty lame drop to get from a cannon minion. She should probably get something better for this slot if you want to stick with this idea, I'd suggest a mini summoner 11 that does magic damage instead of true damage to champions.

iiGazeii1 votes

I put in the original post that the pattern changes to accommodate the changing waves. After 20 minutes (when every other wave has a cannon) every cannon has a balloon, and the waves in between alternate between caster and melee, and after 35 minutes (when only cannon waves spawn), every balloon comes from cannons/super minions.

You're sending me mixed messages here. You say that the sustain granted from minion drops would be "nothing" in the first paragraph, but in the second paragraph, you say that sustain would be even more annoying than infrequent random drops. I think the idea of Zoe having a lot of lane sustain suits her character. You try to swat her away, but she just laughs it off and continues to poke and prod until she lands a good sleep and chunks you. Coupled with the increased range and movement speed from her passive, she'd be really difficult to deal with.

She's supposed to be annoying, but it should be the fair kind of annoying, not "That minion dropped Redemption before anybody in the game actually bought Redemption so I'm going all in now".

Her ult grants vision now, but the devs were saying that one of the things they were testing internally is to not have it do that. Trickster's Sight is not supposed to be just an extra ward for granting vision, it gives Zoe a huge vision range for an extended duration, more like a red trinket. It reveals wards to Zoe, letting her destroy them for Zombie Ward/Eyeball Collection or just plain vision control.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

Changing the drops from big, impactful spells to slower, lane sustain tools isn't really Zoe's identity. She's a burst mage, and should be bursting people down, not slowly gaining health and mana while running around like a scared kitten. Having sustain isn't in Zoe's character at all. She should be about toying with her enemies by outplaying with them, and frustrating them with their inability to catch her, but if they do catch her she should be punished for it, not be allowed to shake it off. That's not fun. Giving her extra range and "increased" movement speed wouldn't help make her less annoying to play against, it would just make her play more passively in lane and remove the incentive to take risks. Who's going to want to ult onto a shard that just gives back the mana it cost to ult there in the first place?

I agree she's supposed to be annoying, but completely taking away her tools and making them more fair are two different things. Instead of taking away her redemption completely, you could gate that drop by either time, level, or W rank instead.

If you did make that change to her drops, she would just become way too oppressive with her ward clearing and her own vision. One of Zoe's biggest counterplays is warding effectively, and if you gave her a free oracle lens every few waves she'd be pretty broken in that regard, especially against champs who rely on traps.

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