Im getting really tired of this Tanks that do damage bs

Rewt·May 15, 2017·8 votes·1,420 views

When a Sejuani that has a cinderhulk is out damaging a Lee Sin that has Warrior when both champs land every skillshot There is a problem. Sure if the lee misses all his shit. thats 1 thing. But if he is landing it he should be doing more damage.

Tanks are doing WAAAAAAAAY too much damage. Tanks BY DESIGN are initiators and frontliners. NOT DUELISTS. Tanks shouldnt have the damage to duel. its just wrong. Damage scaling off hp and the such is just a bad concept because it makes these tanky champions that can dive onto your adc and 1v1 them. Especially since a lot of these tanks are being loaded with slows and have initiation tools so that the adc cant get away. They are just fucked.

This is just bs. The game was in one of its most fun and balanced states prior to this vanguard update. But thanks to the changes to these tanks they have begun to out damage the assassins when you look at the post game damage to champ stats.

54 Comments

ErockandrollMay 15, 20176 votes

Well their not glass cannons either. If said Lee sin, was still working on his core damage items. (something after warrior) Then he's going to be as glass as the ADC. (Give or take a few runes and masteries)

Secondly, Tanks have and need, enough damage to clear camps and minion waves, for them to even work in any position besides support. (unless you rather we just not have tanks in the first place.) Though most Tanks get their Damage in the form of AoE, giving them that clearing power, without a ton of single target damage.

Thirdly, Tanks are fairly Spell focused. So it really isn't fair to say they should be duelist, because they arn't. Their damage is mostly burst, so theirs more risk of getting bursted, rather than a Prolonged duel. (If Free Win, got caught with less than 70% of his HP when Sej found him, yeah, he's in trouble. Similar case if a Glass cannon is caught.)

Forthly, back to the point of anything other than support. If you remove any semblance of Dueling power. (Given your opinion is that they should initiate and only initiate.) Then your removing any independents they had, and become unable to function without a DPS to support them. Which again, kills their ability to lane or Jungle.

One final point, Regardless of their Damage to defense ratio, their CC packed kits, Give a semblance of Dueling and survivability, simply by having you stun locked. Especially when Your primary defense as the DPS was to drain tank.

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

Tanks have too much damage for clearing right now. Tanks are supposed to clear slower than damage dealers. Thats the way it has always been balanced in the past. Right now though Sej has one of the fastest clears in the game. Same with Mao.

Variks the LoyalMay 15, 20175 votes

They're not supposed to have slower clears. It has been in the past, but it has not been balanced, because tank junglers have always been underpowered because of it.

Every class should clear the same, at least in the early game. Later on, Assassin and Fighter junglers will clear camps in microseconds while tanks still take seconds, but early game, if tanks have a painfully slow clear, they'll just be phased out again.

LankPantsMay 15, 20175 votes

Right now though Sej has one of the fastest clears in the game.

Once again, citation needed.

Sej does not have a fast clear. In tests I have done in customs she comes out about 8 seconds slower than Elise and 13 seconds slower than Shyvana on a full clear. She came out a full 2 seconds faster than Nautilus.

Whether or not Maokai has fast clears is currently unimportant since he's not even being played as a tank, he's more of a mage right now.

ErockandrollMay 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Tanks have too much damage for clearing right now. Tanks are supposed to clear slower than damage dealers. Thats the way it has always been balanced in the past. Right now though Sej has one of the fastest clears in the game. Same with Mao.

To be fair, I don't play Jungle that often so I'm not too familiar with current clear speeds.

However, Riot has already learned how problematic Clear speed actually is, and why it's not a good balancing lever. Even if you don't consider the vulnerability Jungle tanks had in the past regarding getting invaded, a Faster clear simply means that you will Level up faster, and out level your opposition, as well as gank sooner and more often.

The only way that could have ever been counter balanced is if those clears were more dangerous, forcing the fast clearing Junglers to back more often and leveling out the difference. But being able to back more often is also prefering said fast clearer, because it allows them more time to shop, and having more of their gold in stats, and less in the back.

Really, Clear speeds shouldn't be faster or slower. With minor variation, they should be comparable.

Ok sure but whyMay 15, 20171 votes

give them some sort of AurelionSol passive then

Big LincolnMay 15, 20175 votes

The game was in one of its most fun and balanced states

citation needed

EndlessSorcererMay 15, 20174 votes

Counter-example: Lethality meta.

Honestly, the meta has been rather horrid since the assassin update. Everything was just oriented around mobility and burst damage.

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

You see i said right before the Mid Season update. That was AFTER the lethality meta. And now that tanks are ruling the world they need to buff back lethality to put those fuckers back in their place as supportive tanks that if they try to jump in to fights without backup get killed pretty quickly

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20176 votes

tanks are not ruling the world...

stop it

its a damage meta and it has been forever

GrievousFetusMay 15, 20174 votes

But tanks are absolutrly horrible right now. Tanks are in one of the worst spots they've ever been in after this update.

Besides, if tanks didn't do damage you could just ignore them.

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

I should never have to be more afraid of the tank 1 shotting me than the assassin

GrievousFetusMay 15, 20172 votes

Then your priorities aren't in order because tanks are absolutely horrible right now.

If you seriously can't deal with them, just play Trundle.

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

When I get 1 shot by someone without a single damage Item just as fast as the fed assassins.... yea i think my priorities are fine.

GrievousFetusMay 15, 20173 votes

First, was said tank Sejuani? Sejuani is a statistical outlier and her winrate skyrocketed because she got stupid huge buffs to her kit. Even with all of that said the vast majority of her damage is still highly unreliable and can be outplayed.

Second, if it wasn't Sejuani, you really have no legs to stand on in this scenario. After the tank update, all tanks who were changed lost tons of damage, they lost their reliability, their winrates plummeted across the board, and their items were gutted. Sunfire, the primary item tanks rush in lane, had it's damage reduced by more than half. ADC items were buffed, and true damage is now stronger because of the swap from HP stacking to resistance stacking.

This update absolutely destroyed tanks as a class outside of Sejuani who's getting hotfixed (she ALWAYS gets hotfixed, I guess she's just not allowed to be strong it's forbidden or something) and that's simply objective reality. If you're losing to tanks not named Sejuani it's because you're bad.

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

A lot of tanks have had buffs to their base damage and also have been constantly given %MaxHP damage which is cancer on any champ. Not just tanks. %MissingHP is a fine mechanic as it requires you to hurt them to prep for the damage, but %MaxHP is just pretty dumb.

"im a tank / im behind, but that doesnt matter because I still do a % of your max HP every single time i hit you with this ability making it insanely strong even when im behind." sick mechanic riot.

GrievousFetusMay 15, 20173 votes

So you got assblasted by Sejuani and now you're mad because you're an entitled Lee player who literally thinks you inherently 100% deserve to win duels against any tank, your own words.

Just buy Trundle if you can't understand you have to attack her once, then wait three seconds for her armour to fall off, then blow your cooldown on her. Maybe don't fight a champion who can targeted stun you if she lands 4 auto attacks if you're playing a melee champion who duels with auto attacks yourself early game.

Also, you were Lee Sin. You could've just ward hopped over a wall.

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

take 1 look at my match history and think about what you said about me being a lee player. Then you will feel like an idiot.

GrievousFetusMay 15, 20175 votes

You played Lee Sin. You said that much yourself. You insisted that you literally deserved to win the 1v1 100% because you were playing Lee Sin.

Nothing I said was wrong. You are

literally

Mad cuz bad.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20172 votes

you mean your 2 and 6 record on lee sin with a 1.57 kda ? http://imgur.com/a/gPA9A

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20175 votes

you didnt get ONE SHOT you died in an EXTENDED FIGHT WITH A TANK WITH AOE DAMAGE

stop it

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

my health dropping from 100% to around 5% within 2 seconds 1v1 vs a tank begs to differ.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20172 votes

lee sin isnt an assassin

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

but the katarina who does less damage than the Sej is an assassin

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20171 votes

ok sejuanna is a tank... it takes along time to kill a tank... during that time all of their AOE damage does alot of damage... its not that they have high damage stats...

and u as lee sin has no armor pen... vs sej, no hp , no nothing u built complete glass cannon being that you have no survive-ability to sustain aoe damage over time ...assassin dont do alot of damage they do burst damage to one champ ... but their over all damage out put in terms of dps isnt that high

also who knows if that kat was good at playing kat all ?

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

Sej has monster single target dps right now. Its actually crazy, Lets not forget about how insanely fast her clear is and that she can easly out damage her assassin teamates in fights while being almost unkillable.

Pre change mao was a perfect example of a good tank. Low damage numbers but had an ability to support his team (his ult)

All tanks should be like that. Bad on their own but with tools to support their team. Thats why they are called tanks. They are literally glorified supports in every game ever. (including league when we dont look at this clown fiesta of an update and S5)

GrievousFetusMay 15, 20174 votes

So all tanks should be terrible?

All tanks should be innately unviable in the jungle because of both slow clears and an inability to duel damage junglers?

Also, why the hell should tanks have slower clears than damage junglers? What possible logic is there behind damage junglers needing to have faster and healthier clears than tank junglers? They're already superior gankers and superior duelists, you're asking tank junglers to be worse than damage junglers in EVERY aspect of jungling, from clear speeds to clear health to dueling to ganking.

Face it dude, statistics don't lie. You're complaining about tanks in a patch where almost every tank's winrate dropped dramatically, as well as their damage, and the only relevant tank after the update is Sejuani who is almost entirely dodgable, unreliable damage.

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

1 Winrates mean jack shit after a major patch. Using them after a huge change to the game is just moronic

2 Tank junglers are supposed to have stronger ganks due to having CC heavy kits and for this they give up their clear speed and dueling potential.

3: ganking is more about CC than damage. If you have mained jungle for 4 seasons like I have you start to learn that Having harder CC in a gank is infinitely more useful than having harder damage.

Tank jungers are glorified supports. They always have been and should continue to be. When they are becoming the best at everything. thats a problem

Mao and Sej have some of the fastest clears now thanks to %maxHP damage, They have great ganks thanks to the CC in their kits thanks to being tanks. They have great dueling thanks to the Innate CC in the kit + their %maxHP damage, and they have Thanks to being tankier they are coming out of their clears healthier than the other junglers.

GrievousFetusMay 15, 20173 votes

Winrate don't mean jack shit when they're totally congruent to the changes made in the actual patch. Tank items were nerfed, tanks themselves were nerfed, their winrate went down. Sejuani was not nerfed and got massive buffs, her winrate went up, and now her winrate has gone down again after a hotfix nerf.

Winrates aren't everything, it's foolish to think they are, but it's even more pathetic to insist they aren't anything.

Second, you were Lee Sin, who is explicitly not designed around defeating tanks because tanks fall to sustained damage and Lee Sin is burst damage.

Third, you claimed Sejuani 100-0'd you, and then you go on to cite her %max HP damage. %max HP damage is the opposite of burst. How did Sejuani take 100% of your health in 2 seconds with her attacks that do 15% of your total health?.

Fourth, you claim that tanks have such great clears because of their %max HP damage, but %hp damage is both capped against jungle monsters and also generally inferior to flat damage against them.

Finally fifth, Lee's early game ganks are stronger than Sejuani's despite her having CC and him not having CC.

RalanrMay 15, 20171 votes

Prechange Mao actually had a lot of damage that was more reliable.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20171 votes

yes he did and i miss

RIP TREE

I will never forget you [zombie-nunu-tears]

EndlessSorcererMay 15, 20173 votes

. The game was in one of its most fun and balanced states prior to this vanguard update. But thanks to the changes to these tanks they have begun to out damage the assassins when you look at the post game damage to champ stats.

Firstly, the update weakened most tanks in the game. Their win-rates dropped and their main damage item (Sunfire Cape) was significantly nerfed.

Secondly, tanks and assassins deal damage differently.

Assassins (typically) pick one target during a teamfight and burst them down. Afterwards, they will usually die or back out of the fight while waiting for cooldowns.
Tanks (typically) stay in the middle of a fight dealing ambient (AoE) damage. Rather than back out of a fight, they continue dealing damage until they are forced out or die.

If you want a simple comparison:

Assassin deals 2000 damage to squishy in 1 second during a teamfight. Squishy dies instantly.
Tank deals 3000 damage to everyone over 10+ seconds during a teamfight. Everyone takes moderate damage (i.e. 600 each) but survives.

RewtMay 15, 20176 votes

You see that isnt how its going right now.

Right now the assassin jumps in and 100-0s 1 target. dies

Tank Jumps in a 100-0s 1 target. (yea its fucking insane right now) and lives to smack people and wait till their abilities come off cooldown and instakill another champion.

I just played against a galio with a FULL TANK BUILD. and he was more of a damage threat in fights than the 14/3 Ahri.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20174 votes

just stop with the bs...

you mean the tank galio who only did 14,979 damage ? when the only player on your team to do any damage was the support lulu ? Jax 3788 damage to champs Elise 12592 damage to champs Karma 17478 damage to champs Jinx 9360 damage to champs Lulu 21554 damage to champs

Galio 14976 damage to champs 16502 damage to champs Ahri 24827 damage to champs Draven 21897 damage to champs Rakan 14040 damage to champs

so how is galio the more damage treat in team fights then ahri whens he did 10 k more damage and the most damage in the game?

are you done lying yet ?

RewtMay 15, 20176 votes

You dont seem to understand how this game works. Total damages dont always indicate the crazy damage someone is doing in a fight. The galio could run up hit someone with a Q and an auto and RIP 3/4 of their HP with A FULL TANK BUILD.

I want to also point out that the tank... THE FULL TANK.. did almost as much damage as the Vi. Yep not fucking retarded at all.

Since you have literally no knowledge of how this game actually plays and how strong tanks currently are why dont you just do us all a favor and stop responding because you obviously dont even play the game.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20174 votes

LMAO really total damage dealt in game dont reflect actual damage the champ did ?

galio is in constant combat vs a laner... vi isnt ... she is in jungle therefore farming away from combat and only sees combat once in ganks or team fight situations just like any other jungler

man do you really believe any thing that you actually say?

RewtMay 15, 20171 votes

[deleted]

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20174 votes

actually i played earlier today

RewtMay 15, 20176 votes

Your match history states otherwise.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20174 votes

you really are slow arent you ? [zombie-brand-facepalm]

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20171 votes

http://imgur.com/0HiRiJ0

JustJaysonMay 15, 20173 votes

Lee Sin really isn't much of a duelist when it comes to confronting a tank. He is more of a champ designed around getting in and putting the enemy champ in a poor position for your team mates to kill, and if not you can execute with your Q.

EcchiOtakuTMMay 15, 20172 votes

So why did the lee sin try to focus the tank in a 1v1 when he couldn't seem to dodge anything?

1v1'ing isn't just about landing stuff, but dodging as well. And the tank will love taking a hit more than a lee win will like retaliation....

RewtMay 15, 20175 votes

1v1 in the jungle when both junglers only have their jungle item. Thats a completely reasonable time to be 1v1ing. And if the lee sin and the Sej 1v1 at level 5 in the jungle with the same equivelant items the Lee sin should 100% win that fight by a landslide, but because of the crazy ass damage that riot has been putting into these reworked tank's kits they are able to win these early 1v1s

Variks the LoyalMay 15, 20176 votes

Lee Sin objectively should not win that fight by a landslide, actually.

At that point, all Lee Sin has is burst. You know what a tank counters? Burst.

Sejuani, however, does not have burst. It is actually impossible for her to burst you from 95% to 5% in less than a second with only Cinderhulk. Upload a video and show us what happened.

RewtMay 15, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Variks the LoyalMay 15, 20175 votes

Then it's even more impossible because the Lee Sin likely has a Magic Resistance item like Merc Treads, Hexdrinker/Maw, or Spirit Visage.

Try not to be so aggressive with your posts, will ya? No one will take you seriously if you go around insulting people.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 15, 20174 votes

lol so somehow from last night when this guy was being told how he was wrong over and over some one , a few people can through here and downvoted every one who argued aganist him and up voted all of his comments that had downvotes [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

EcchiOtakuTMMay 15, 20171 votes

So basically, the lee sin played wrong and tried to 1v1 the tank. Lee sin has good burst for squishy but overestimating lee sin capabilities if you think he's the master of all trades.

And A Real HieroMay 15, 20172 votes

If Lee blows his entire load over Sej in 0,3 seconds like he always does other champs, then he deserved to lose. She has a Malzaharian passive. Git Gud.