They can delete you in one second while overhealing with life steal
EDIT : Seems like people somehow don't get what i am talking about , simply i am talking about how strong these 4 guys above are and not crying about assassins.
AFilthyCaitMain18 votesGod why does this marksman who built full damage kill me so fast?
Critmaster Garen68 votesGod why does this marksman who built full damage kill me so fast?
you could have made the same argument for assassins when they didnt have delayed burst.
"god, why does 
who built full damage kill me so fast?"
then there is the changed marksman itemization.
full damage like 
12% damage reduction, 
200 health shield and 20% lifesteal, 
armor and a revive passive, 
mr, cleanse and lifesteal or 
30% damage delay with 15% lifesteal to just drain tank through burst?
marksmen arent just building full damage anymore. theyre stacking defense at the same time without losing out in their carry potential.
no, theyre not going to have all of those items at the same time, but even just a phantom dancer combined with a death dance on a 3 item build makes a massive difference in survivability without giving anything up for it in the damage departement.
Sire Hippington29 votes* 350 health shield
AirKingNeo6 votesExcept you can only build 1-2 of those items or lose out on a ton of damage.
Critmaster Garen21 votesExcept you can only build 1-2 of those items or lose out on a ton of damage.
+
one of those
seems like a viable midgame build to me. which means you already have 2 big offensive items with big ticket defensive stats attached.
where are you losing out on damage exactly?
Thilmer9 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wW89q5Qe,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-03T14:07:47.672+0000)
seems like a viable midgame build to me. which means you already have 2 big offensive items with big ticket defensive stats attached.
where are you losing out on damage exactly?
I have read that argument a lot of times and it's simply hilarious.
Yes, you are losing a lot of damage when most of your ítems give you +70 AD... LMFAO. Everything in that build gives damage except the boots. XDXDXD
Ïnsidious4 votesMaybe, just maybe, people need to accept that when an adc gets to 4 items you should not try to duel them?
Critmaster Garen12 votesMaybe, just maybe, people need to accept that when an adc gets to 4 items you should not try to duel them?
lmao. so assassins and fighters on equal gold shouldnt be able to duel marksmen? hope youre kidding.
marksmen getting caught out alone in melee should die. period. there needs to be some sort of tradeoff for being a ranged damage machine with utility.
Thefrostyviking2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wW89q5Qe,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-07-03T11:43:21.789+0000)
They were given all those items because they couldn't survive though, altho i will argee that deaths dance is over the top.
And Twitch's powerspike on lategame ulti is too high, Draven.....is just because of deaths dance.
Cait is not that OP, she is only safe which is why people hate her existence. A marksman that can with little issue stay at range and attack really grinds people's nerves away it seems x)
Xayah got that fab ultimate, every non marksman player has been hating her from day 1.
Critmaster Garen8 votesThey were given all those items because they couldn't survive though
they cant get survivability and to be the main carries aswell.
chose one or the other.
ForeverLaxx6 votesUnfortunately, Riot has been steadily going into the "having your cake and eating it too" idea of game design. More and more decisions regarding itemization have been in the realm of handing out free damage or free defense on the kinds of items a certain class already has to build in order to do their job at all. In the case of AD Carries, it's free survivability. To top this off, they appear to want to balance champions by introducing clunkiness to their kit rather than stripping extraneous power. Delayed damage on assassins is the most recent application of this.
Riot seems to want a champion to be a closed system where they bring everything they need (or can at least buy what they need). Needing to use teammates is "unfun" apparently, despite this being a team game. The only time they relent on this angle is when designing a support, and it's often to the support's detriment as well.
Ïnsidious6 votesJesus, you guys make it sound like adc's just draintank the entire team, if an adc gets focused, hit by a full mage combo, jumped on by a tank or a melee carry, adc dies. ADC's typically will only survive if they get grazed or focused halfway, at which point they can lifesteal health back. Rot has said that the entire point of lifesteal is to force people to primary adc's or they will survive the entire fight.
woodvsmurph4 votesMid game, a bruiser or mage or assassin should be able to solo hop on the enemy adc and pop them or force them to leave the fight for good regardless of peeling the enemy team tries; you get to them, they die or have to run for their lives the whole fight. But now it takes 2 people just to do this. Probably 3 people or 2 fed people to ensure they die asap, or the adc escapes and drain tanks. And they have too much mobility from items too considering basically every tank item only gives initial engage - leaving tanks and bruisers with nothing to catch an adc after they survive the initial engage onto them - which thanks to support items and exhaust and cc they pretty much guaranteed do. And late game? Not a damn chance unless you got 3 people diving and deleting the adc - not likely considering the tendency of teams to pick ranged dps or burst champs. You can't just pop a syndra or ori ult to open the fight then flash on the adc with vi ult or renekton combo and pop them. If you do that - even if you could manage to pull it off - you wouldn't kill the adc, they'd just kite back, and you get deleted by the enemy team while the adc drain tanks. That is the stupidity of how absurdly overtuned adc's are due to nerfs to other classes' damage items and due to survivability of adc's due to support items.
You want proof beyond that? If one team has an average adc or slightly sub par adc but their top and mid are amazing... the enemy team has average or sub par top and mid but amazing adc, the adc advantage outweighs the top and mid advantage every time. Last time I checked, 2>1. But not in league; adc>all. This is why people are so damn fed up with adc's and items buffing/protecting adc's. Hell I've skipped out on building 
vs 2 fed crit users on the enemy team because 
made me tankier thanks to bs healing from my adc doing damage. The protection for adc's needs to be cut down massively and some raw damage (ad and ap) stats be given back to items for other classes like mages, assassins, and bruisers or their ability scaling numbers increased (so you get the same effect). After this is properly taken care of, then we can assess which if any adc's are truly in need of nerfs and which ones are only overtuned due to the insane level of survivability given to them by supportive tank, heal, and shield items of which they make better use than any other class of champion.
Thefrostyviking4 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wW89q5Qe,comment-id=0001000000020000,timestamp=2017-07-03T19:10:49.170+0000)
they cant get survivability and to be the main carries aswell.
chose one or the other.
What i meant is that, 1-2 hits even in a good position was enough to kill them.
What is the point of being the main carry if you die instantly regardless of what you do? This kind of argument and the fact that nearly every marksman at the time had a poor winrate caused riot to try and add in more items to help them up a bit.
Which, together with assassin nerfs and support buffs caused some of them to go over the top.
Critmaster Garen5 votesWhat is the point of being the main carry if you die instantly regardless of what you do?
marksmen are supposed to be A carry. not THE main carry.
adc doesnt just describe a singular class of champions. adc actually describes a whole bunch of different carry type champions from marksmen to fighters and skirmishers.
are all supposed to be altegame carries aswell. they just utilize other mechanics than auto attack range to support their ability to carry.
then there are ap carries like 
who have their own ways to deal sustained damage on magic damage builds.
the difference between those carries is simply the tools theyre utilizing. marksmen are supposed to be ranged glass cannons who have the advantage of increased threat range. theyre supposed to blow up when they mistep and are out of position.
Thefrostyviking2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wW89q5Qe,comment-id=000100000002000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-04T10:41:35.993+0000)
marksmen are supposed to be A carry. not THE main carry.
Few other carries need go full on damage to work though, marksmen usually have the requirment of at least 3 crit items+armor pen to deal anything.
With so much time needed to be able to do anything it feels frustrating to find that you in reality can't do anything because someone on the enemy team can instantly delete you. Or lock you down easily and have their team followup on that.
That kind of thing is why assassins and tanks have gotten changed so much, to prevent that from happening.
Because they couldn't change the marksmen to survive it.
adc doesnt just describe a singular class of champions. adc actually describes a whole bunch of different carry type champions from marksmen to fighters and skirmishers.
ADC and marksman have been used interchangeably for a long time, i am a bit stuck in it altho i know it's wrong nowadays but my hands work faster than my head at times.
.-.......I´d aruge that only Yas and Fiora are really lategame carries there though, Darius is more of a lane bully turns into damage tank, warwick is a.....something but not a damage carry.
Nasus.....is kinda unique but he hasn't worked for the general playerbase in ages, he's been gone even longer than azir i think.
then there are ap carries like
Ironic that both Ryze and Azir were so powerful that the only way to control them from a balance standpoint was to nerf them so harshly, and cassio´.....actually does work but she really is fairly difficult but with reasonable time and effort you can really carry hard with her.
But in my experience she sucks terribly against tanks, especially after 
was released. This item was like made to counter her existence.
the difference between those carries is simply the tools theyre utilizing. marksmen are supposed to be ranged glass cannons who have the advantage of increased threat range. theyre supposed to blow up when they mistep and are out of position.
Thing is, marksmen blew up even when they didn't mistep or they simply couldn't enter fights without getting blown up. This situation caused the "ADCin2k17 lul" meme to be a thing, altho it started in 2016.
Then a number of buffs happened to marksmen and nerfs to everyone else to bring them back and suddenly everyone hates marksmen again x)
Altho i must admit i personally find Twitch and Draven quite....hard to accept. But Draven mainly because of and twitch in the absolute lategame.
lolipopevelynn4 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wW89q5Qe,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-07-03T11:43:21.789+0000)
you could have made the same argument for assassins when they didnt have delayed burst.
"god, why does
then there is the changed marksman itemization.
full damage like
marksmen arent just building full damage anymore. theyre stacking defense at the same time without losing out in their carry potential.
no, theyre not going to have all of those items at the same time, but even just a phantom dancer combined with a death dance on a 3 item build makes a massive difference in survivability without giving anything up for it in the damage departement.
yep, PD needs to be reworked again or losed the 12% dmg reduction. DD needs to be melee only, shield on BT needs nerfing or removed, and LS stacking should be removed
PresidentPeewee13 voteshahAA haven't seen that one on the boards like 20 times already!
inFamous Zion9 votes
- "Hah i practiced this full dps combo to one shot carries. My tanky items will help me survive anything, all i need is a carry to perform my E+R+AA+Q+AA+Q+AA+Q+W+R2 on and easy as that she/he is dead.
fires one auto.
You have been slain
Well fuck this game and that champ in particular.
AirKingNeo15 votesCaitlyn doesn't 1 auto Riven or any champion. Also Riven uses shield and Death's Dance.
Karfuss9 votesWhat I simply don't understand, is how Riot thought it was acceptable for ADC to be able to itemise defensively while retaining damage.
ADC, in every game, including League up until the last two seasons, is a role built on high damage high stakes with death a certainty if caught out.
It isn't a role, where getting caught out means standing still, two shotting and overhealing through all the damage you receive. That is no risk, and simply unacceptable.
NakedGranny2 votesRemember when they nerfed the shit out of Spell Vamp? Remember the reasons they gave for that? That was back when Vayne could recover 300+ hp twice per second just by right clicking on you.
And then Riot outright removed the only Spell Vamp item in the game.... and buffed lifesteal for AD champs.
CrazFight 8 votesNo one at this point is saying Assassins are op , maybe like 3-4 weeks ago they were but not anymore....
Talon1229 votesPretty sure they are referring to the four adc's they have listed, which pretty much instantly kill people while life stealing very heavily due to their steroids.
Yi Bencheikh5 votesFinally a guy who understands
PhoenixOfHeaven5 votesThis STILL dosnt get his point! He's pointing out that assassins are in a bad spot, and 'countering' it with marksmen being worse. Except...Nobody's insulting Assassins. It's just another clickbait/circlejerk post.
Yi Bencheikh7 votesSimply adcs like assassinate you better than 
Draven at the 7th minute had a dorans and this 
and one of his auto was deleting 1/6 of rakan's hp , they didn't have lvl diffirence they were on the same lvl .
isn't that alot ? imagine with atleast Ie and phantom dancer with death's dance ? beign durable while having ridiculous amount of life steal and doing shit tons of dammage , i did play draven alot i even have lvl 7 mastery with enough to stay that he is so op right now with twitch and cait xayah too.
Arakadia3 votesBut who is saying assassins are way too OP recently? Who said that quote? Or did you just make it up?
Yi Bencheikh10 votesit was like this when people were like '' adc in 2k17 lul '' every adc main was complaining about how op assassins were.
SenzaRespiro8912 votesAre you guys playing dumb? Or are you purposely missing his point? Riot reworked assassins because omg they kill too fast me adc me wanna farm sidelane solo. So riot reworked them just to buff marksmen into obscene states until they assasinate better than assassins in 2-3 items
waiting for WoW8 votesYes because giving a marksmen one of the best late game carries, and a laning phase that is better than most solo laners was suuuuch a good idea.
Arakadia1 votesYes because giving a marksmen one of the best late game carries, and a laning phase that is better than most solo laners was suuuuch a good idea.
As much as she needs nerfs, it's not fair to forget her dip in winrate mid game.
SenzaRespiro892 votesCaitlyn dips a bit more than 1% in winrate in midgame. What a HORRIBLE midgame. Not comparable to let's say jayce who lost like 8% winrate into the lategame.
AirKingNeo4 votesNone of them delete you in one second.
Cosmic Warper14 votesNone of them delete you in one second.
not everyone is a tank lmao
Thefrostyviking2 votes[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wW89q5Qe,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-07-03T14:51:16.471+0000)
not everyone is a tank lmao
But they deal damage instead, no marksman except Draven wins against anything 1v1.
....except probably Xayah if she's good at feather mindgames in a good matchup.
Oh and Vayne.
Succubús GF1 votesI have straight up slaughtered as cait 1v1 against lux. And ashe against leblanc. So idk o.o
Thefrostyviking2 votes[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wW89q5Qe,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-03T19:25:21.742+0000)
I have straight up slaughtered as cait 1v1 against lux. And ashe against leblanc. So idk o.o
Then lux probably missed her spells? Or you might have been quite fed.
Absolutely no idea how you could beat LB with Ashe unless she missed her E but at that point the person is disqualified from playing LB anyway.
Or if it was very late and you stunned her face and had a Q ready to go, other than those two cases i can't imagine Ashe beating LB.
Catastrophic2 votesThis shows damage against tanks. One of many classes.
chipndip15 votesThe ones that build resistances to survive people that build full damage? Those guys?
Catastrophic6 votesYes, but I'm not saying a squishy should be able to withstand 10 minutes of ADC onslaught, but ADCs should not be able to burst targets faster than an assassin can.
VoraciousX1 votesNone of them delete you in one second.
You chose Ashe with a crit build, a champion who actually doesn't benefit from crit as much as any other ADC in the game in terms of raw damage. If you really wanted to choose a champion that was more basic ADC you would have picked Caitlyn, Sivir, or Jinx.
As for ADCs buying items they shouldn't. Death's Dance is 100% an anti-burst damage item. If ADCs are allowed to do well with and buy an anti-burst item, why don't assassins have an anti-DPS damage item? Adaptive stats preferably. Assassin's jobs are to kill squishies, most notably ADCs. If an ADC can buy an item to lower their kit's damage potential while overhealing from it, why don't assassins, the job intended to kill them, have an option to lower their kit's damage potential while overhealing from it?
AirKingNeo2 votesnecroing threads
Dengeden2 votesPeople whined about assassins, and that got them nerfed, as well as a different identity.
You are whining about ADCs, which will get them nerfed, which you will ignore.
SenzaRespiro892 votesNo they won't. Otherwise riot wouldn't have reverted shiv changes. Riot wouldn't just ignore twitch and draven banrate+winrate. But riot is doing jackshit. Because they love marksmen and marksmen with 55-60% winrate are totally okay. I just imagine nautilus top with 55% winrate it wouldn't need a patch to nerf him a hotfix would come immediately to banish him from the rift for every role.
Sulghunter1 votesWhy would you have such a squishy build that would get you killed in 2 auto attacks?
SenzaRespiro891 votesWhy would adcs build glasscannon when the enemy syndra, zed, talon, ori are fed? Why not building a spirit visage? Or randuins? Why do we need to rework assassins and nerf them into the ground because you adc mains don't want to build defensive?
Sulghunter2 votesIt isn't a matter of "want", rather, it is more a case of "can't". If ADCs are expected to have the DPS necessary to work down tanks and towers as quickly as possible, then defense must be sacrificed, with the understanding that team would generally defend them for the most part. If they build even a single defensive item, then their DPS goes down the crapper in comparison to the ADC that went whole hog on the damage.
Assassins on the other hand take the following risks: getting past the enemy front line defenders, dodging CC from the tanks and supports, and bursting the ADC fast enough before the ADC can use its DPS on the assassin.
The case can also be said that assassin mains don't want to build defensive items as well, to instead maximize their almighty burst._ Why would assassins build glasscannon when the enemy ADC is fed/has a competent front line._
inplane1 votesI miss Season 3. That was when Assassins were OPOP, but it was still fun and champs who weren't Assassins still had a chance in teamfights.
Aptest3 votesexempt if you were the adc. then your chance was basically not being in the team fight. or if you were the support. then you'd expected to defend said ADC.
You are forgetting that the bot lane roles were both considered trash.