Toplane frustration.

dontspinbutwin··2 votes·1,347 views

So I'm a toplane juggernaut main, and my pool mainly consists of champs such as Darius, illaoi, Yorick, etc. The main shtick with Juggernauts is that they sacrifice mobility for zoning power, heavy sustain, and dueling potential. Such juggernauts can be really strong in 2v1s....until the damage creep meta strolled in. Because of this, divers are usually far stronger than juggernauts, as their damage is quite similar now. As such, Juggernauts are in a really bad spot right now, but it isn't impossible. We just have to play super passive in lane, and wait it out until mid/late game. Early game cheese strats don't work as well now, so we make do.

However, this is a team game. Even if I play passive, my team mates will most certainly not, and thus, they will lose trades by the slightest sliver. They take that slight sliver as hope, and keep losing trades, until the enemy is ahead by both cs and kills, rendering them useless. Unless they're all melee, this is shit to deal with, as one of two scenarios play out.

  1. I get fed, but the enemy midlaner/botlane gets fed. As such, by the time my allies decide to play passive, its too late, and the enemy is now hardfocusing me. Since I'm a juggernaut, I have 0 dashes and escapes, so I get kited to death, until I get behind as well. If allies are super tilted, they will blame me not helping them early game, and that it was my fault they fed. We end up losing, enemies say "GGEZ". I might get reported at the end game queue for suggesting to play passive after their second death, as I was being "toxic".
  2. I do horrendously. I play passive, I give up CS, but still end up feeding. Jungler doesn't like ganking top because theres nothing to get toplane, and he " don't gank losing lanes". Enemy gets fed as well, and now we're all behind. The one ally who plays agro and has a good kda is super toxic to the team (usually the ally lucian). I suggest we play passive, and spread out to farm in all lanes/jungle, and grind it out to the late game. I'm told to "STFU, YOU'RE FEEDING. HOLY CRAP THIS IS YOUR FAULT". I am then flamed for all the team's faulty decisions, and everytime I slip up/die, I get question pinged. I am then reported at the end game queue for "Inting" and "being toxic".

If I were a backline main, then this whole "my team won't be passive when losing" issue wouldn't be problem. I could force them to be passive midgame by not grouping up, forcing them to farm till late game. However, being a juggernaut main forces me to be there if my team refuses to be passive, which in turn encourages them to force a fight.

I honestly wish change were to be made, but I think any buffs to juggernauts would be abused by some "hurr hurr juggernauts ahre opop" players. I want damage nerfs, but I doubt a nerf of that level would ever exist.

I don't know what to do about this, but it's been happening nearly every game, and I'm just frustrated.

9 Comments

Moody P3 votes

Just play a diver. All of the strength and no drawback at all.

dontspinbutwin1 votes

I have a few divers under my belt, like kled and camille. It isnt my playstyle, but I can play them. It's just frustrating that losses are usually due to the team refusing to be passive, as I don't know if I my playstyle is wrong or right, as no matter how I play, we lose.

kingDeDeDarius1 votes

Haha so true, more dps, just as much burst (without having to wait) target access through engage and escape mobility, often on low CD, better defensive tools (so between those and mobility they live longer, just look at Jax, irelia, and tryn), and generally decent cc to go with them. Why pick Darius, illaoi, nasus, when they can be easily kited and bursted, susceptible to high dps, low objective control, almost no splitpushong threat, and merely acceptable levels of team fight synergy

Saevum1 votes

See? now we talkin'

Critmaster Garen3 votes

the problem is, that in season 5 juggernauts were actually tanky and capable of taking on multiple opponents at once when they were played correctly. they used to be sustained damage threats that worked off high health pools and powerful sustain mechanics.

but riot ramped up damage so much, especially on aoe abilities, that juggernauts just straight up blow up in fights.

its ridiculous. 4k fucking health targets get blown to pieces through a steraks shield in 5 seconds, because someone at riot has a rageboner for everything that invalidates (not just counters) defensive stats.

the problem isnt just items, but also how they have overblown damage in champion kits.

abilities like MissFortune are capable of actually dealing 3600 fucking damage in an aoe in 3 seconds. i wish this was a made up number, but its real. think about this garbage. a single ability is capable of dealing 1.5 times of most champions health bars in damage.

they did the same with other champions like Velkoz Brand

and Vayne is a fucking monstrosity.

and Kayle is just the latest addition to this bullshit with her lvl 16 damage being so overblown that she can burst straight through tanks with the true damage on her waves. the only reason why shes kept in check is her garbage early game that riot is bound to buff at some point.

and there are so many other examples, that its easy to lose track.

it just shows the general direction that theyve taken in the past 3 years. their answer to buff or rework any champion nowdays usually is just to double the damage on everything, and their idea of fun is to turn everything into a tank bursting champion.

thats why even juggernauts started to go with full ad builds a long time ago, when they could afford to. because there is no point in building defense anymore when it doesnt have an effect, but youre sacrificing kill pressure for it.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wNL9B7lq,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-12T22:42:15.692+0000)

the problem is, that in season 5 juggernauts were actually tanky and capable of taking on multiple opponents at once when they were played correctly. they used to be sustained damage threats that worked off high health pools and powerful sustain mechanics.

but riot ramped up damage so much, especially on aoe abilities, that juggernauts just straight up blow up in fights.

its ridiculous. 4k fucking health targets get blown to pieces through a steraks shield in 5 seconds, because someone at riot has a rageboner for everything that invalidates (not just counters) defensive stats.

the problem isnt just items, but also how they have overblown damage in champion kits.

abilities like MissFortune are capable of actually dealing 3600 fucking damage in an aoe in 3 seconds. i wish this was a made up number, but its real. think about this garbage. a single ability is capable of dealing 1.5 times of most champions health bars in damage.

they did the same with other champions like Velkoz Brand

and Vayne is a fucking monstrosity.

and Kayle is just the latest addition to this bullshit with her lvl 16 damage being so overblown that she can burst straight through tanks with the true damage on her waves. the only reason why shes kept in check is her garbage early game that riot is bound to buff at some point.

and there are so many other examples, that its easy to lose track.

it just shows the general direction that theyve taken in the past 3 years. their answer to buff or rework any champion nowdays usually is just to double the damage on everything, and their idea of fun is to turn everything into a tank bursting champion.

thats why even juggernauts started to go with full ad builds a long time ago, when they could afford to. because there is no point in building defense anymore when it doesnt have an effect, but youre sacrificing kill pressure for it.

Holy shit. I finally agree with you on something. XD

kingDeDeDarius1 votes

While I mostly agree with your statements, three things:

-some juggs may go MOSTLY AD builds, but few go ALL AD. Even as darius I usually go some combination of tri (occasionally cleaver), steraks, deadmans, randuins/thorn, spirit visage, ninja/mercs, and some other situational item for more damage or more hp

  • Kaylee is not a problem, and not just because she has horrendous early game, but because unlike many other bs champs with crap loads of damage, she doesn't have the mobility or safe enough range/cc to avoid hard cc like say, you, vayne, tryn (his ult cancer and outlasts most cc), and so she is pretty easy to zone out or ourtight destroy with certain champs like veigar, brand, xerath, zyra, annivia, etc. I've had personally great success late game against yber fed Kayle with veigar, as she is easy to trap and burst, and if she doesn't get stunned she has to burn ult just to live and otherwise can't retaliate much if I keep respectful distance.

-they already have Kayle nerfs on pbe, so, for now at least, your theory about buffing Kayle is wrong (perhaps they are nerfing her late game and will give her early a little help, hard to say)

-also, it's not just aoe damage that has hurt juggernauts, bit ironically (at least in darius's case) the prevalence of true damage in items and runes that almost everybody has access to, and high armor pen, allowing even assassins to have a good time vs juggernauts since they just burst and run.

The thigh guy1 votes

These are the sacrifices you make when playing a role that almost auto wins fights when they get in.

You can’t expect to auto win fights and have an easy time getting into them when you want.

dontspinbutwin1 votes

I understand when there are disadvantageous fights, its essentially the whole concept behind scaling and outplays. I know I can't win all fights, like for example, I know I lost lane in a quinn vs darius matchup, and I can assume that riven will win in a riven vs darius matchup, so I adjust and play defensively. I'm frustrated at how the team refuses to adapt and tries to fight every chance they get, advantageous or disadvantageous. It's the equivelent of building Maw of Mormaldeous every single game. Some games it works, other games it doesn't, but players complain when it doesn't work. Rather than complain, why not just buy something else? Similarly, if being agro doesn't work, why not passive till late game? Unfortunately, no one tries this, and decides to blame the person who suggests change of playstyle (me).

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