Its harder to display a legitimate outplay these days

dontspinbutwin·Oct 14, 2019·56 votes·15,680 views

Gets a triple kill toplane 3v1 as illaoi "Omg braindead"

manages to get 2 kills in a 3v1 as Darius before dying "God thats broken"

kites as ashe "That permaslow is so fking stupid"

Manages to bushweave as rengar as toplane rengar, then turns a gank around for a double kill* "Like wtf is that bs"

Lands a 3 man stun as irelia, then kills all 3 of them, while surviving with 4 hp "Overloaded omg"

Thresh internally screaming as he manages to somehow peel off 3 assassins off the very aggressive ally kogmaw "Fk thresh"

...ok, the last one is just said because I feel for any supports who have to deal with that mental stress, but honestly, how do you outplay anymore?

Remember when gosu being able to 1v5 as vayne was an actual display of skill?

Remember when jax being able to 2v1 was actually one of the most extremely difficult things to do?

Remember when the rengar 1 shot combo was actually really difficult to execute?

Now, because damage is so high, genuine outplays arent seen as outplays: because anyone can do them. Its getting harder to express skill level, aside from minor scuffles, but even then, your skill is rarely matched with your kda. I could be the best Malphite in the world, with excellent zoning and peel, but I could still go 0/11/19 because my team needs a meatshield.

68 Comments

Titanium70Oct 14, 201932 votes

Things just went differnetly when people see those scenarios on a regular base.

The Irelia you outfarmed and send 0-1 suddenly going 1v3? That's skill at first glance. But when you realize that every single player with some games on her can do that, that the whole champion's basicly designed to do exactly that (same for Darius and Illaoi btw) you realize it's not a massive outplay. It's what the champ is supposed to do and actually NOT being able to perfom this way is now considered bad.

That wasn't the case (as hard) back in the days. Both modern Darius and modern Irelia have kits that work exceptionally well in 1vX scenarios which is why surviving this 1vX is nothing I'd ever consider an achievment.

Josh SandOct 15, 20192 votes

{quoted} But when you realize that every single player with some games on her can do that, that the whole champion's basicly designed to do exactly that (same for Darius and Illaoi btw) you realize it's not a massive outplay.

^^^ This so much

There was a point in the past where I really missed being able to honor my opponent.

If I played vs a Zed with crazy evasive moves, or a really well played Darius, I loved being able to express my appreciation for my opponent displaying something on a champion that I'd never seen before.

Some of my favorite moments in league have been underestimating an opponent, and getting juked out of my freaking pants.

Feeling like you got outplayed is the perfect fuel for self improvement. I really miss that experience.

Now its impossible to tell who is actually a good player because everyone is just one shotting everyone else.

Is the Zed on my team any good? He just popped Youumus out of a bush and ran up to the enemy bot lane and one shot them. But thats not even a rare or difficult play anymore.

One shotting is par for the course. There is no skill test around your cooldowns anymore. Its more a test around whether you can get into range or not. And for a MOBA, that skill test is unremarkable and extremely boring.

ZleraOct 14, 201914 votes

Yeah, youre right. Its basically impossible to get people to not call you broken. You could get a solo double on ivern and someone would still find a way to call you bad.

3TWarriorOct 15, 20193 votes

I think if that happened, they'd probably be too stupefied to respond XD

DiävoloOct 14, 20195 votes

Well, Illaoi is OP. Darius isn't as OP as he used to be. Now he can be killed in less than 5 secs. ASHE'S SLOW NEEDS TO BE DELETED. Like why the fuck this shit has a passive that's literally a CC ? Same as many champs, Evelynn's passive is literally Twitch's Q but permanent.

ThefrostyvikingOct 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Well, Illaoi is OP. Darius isn't as OP as he used to be. Now he can be killed in less than 5 secs. ASHE'S SLOW NEEDS TO BE DELETED. Like why the fuck this shit has a passive that's literally a CC ? Same as many champs, Evelynn's passive is literally Twitch's Q but permanent.

Twitch is ranged though, and when he ults he has one of the longest range´s in the game coupled with some of the highest DPS.¨

And Ashe´s slow? Literally far from the worst thing present in the game, and if it was removed she´d just end up needing a huge rework given how it works now which is a colossal waste of time.

metroman450Oct 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Twitch is ranged though, and when he ults he has one of the longest range´s in the game coupled with some of the highest DPS.¨

And Ashe´s slow? Literally far from the worst thing present in the game, and if it was removed she´d just end up needing a huge rework given how it works now which is a colossal waste of time.

You do realise that she also does less crit damage than other adc. Stop complaining. Ashe passive is a slow but in return she does less crit dmg.

ThefrostyvikingOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You do realise that she also does less crit damage than other adc. Stop complaining. Ashe passive is a slow but in return she does less crit dmg.

I think you´re telling the wrong guy that x)

I basically stated that it´d be a waste of time for Riot to try and make a "less frustrating" passive for Ashe given that there is a massive amount of other things that are in far more dire need of attention.

Then to be honest i dont mind Ashe´s passive but i do understand that immobile melee find it quite unfair which is why i find the frustration understandable.

metroman450Oct 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I think you´re telling the wrong guy that x)

I basically stated that it´d be a waste of time for Riot to try and make a "less frustrating" passive for Ashe given that there is a massive amount of other things that are in far more dire need of attention.

Then to be honest i dont mind Ashe´s passive but i do understand that immobile melee find it quite unfair which is why i find the frustration understandable.

My apologies. But ashe is immobile herself. In fact she is the most balanced adc.

ThefrostyvikingOct 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

My apologies. But ashe is immobile herself. In fact she is the most balanced adc.

Most balanced i am not quite so sure about, She does have the highest winrate+pickrate among all ADC´s right now and both are actually really high.

But an argument could be made for her being generally the least frustrating and oppressive one to play against as long as you are not playing an immobile melee though, which i believe is a sentiment the general community shares given that despite her huge win+pickrate she still maintains a very low banrate.

DiävoloOct 15, 20192 votes

Well, I would prefer her getting a rework

ThefrostyvikingOct 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Well, I would prefer her getting a rework

I´d say its considerable after a very, very long list of other things that are in far greater need of attention x)

Perhaps it´d be about right after Ryze has celebrated his 10th rework.

ThefrostyvikingOct 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Well, Illaoi is OP. Darius isn't as OP as he used to be. Now he can be killed in less than 5 secs. ASHE'S SLOW NEEDS TO BE DELETED. Like why the fuck this shit has a passive that's literally a CC ? Same as many champs, Evelynn's passive is literally Twitch's Q but permanent.

Why should Ashe lose her slow? Plenty worse stuff in the game by miles and if she loses it she´ll just get damage/range compensation buffs to make her viable anyway which is worse.

It´d just make her another kog basically.....and that is given that they actually do it which would need a rework to make her passive still apply damage even when not slowing which would be yet another colossal waste of time.

Better just encourage them to fix stuff that actually matters like that Neeko bug or rework the old ones that still havent gotten one and need it.

DalekZecOct 14, 20195 votes

For Illaoi, she is tough in tight corridors. The smaller the space, the more threatening she is. And her ulti is based on how many enemy champs are nearby. Illaoi is strong vs teamfights but weak in 1v1 or 1v2.

Darius i agree. He's a bit problematic.

Ashe does need a cooldown for her slow passive. That would make her require skill to play. Even sejuani has a cooldown on her passive.

Rengar is a bullshit champ anyway. Anti cc with cc. That champ is toxic to begin with.

Irelia is a mistake anyway. Even Morello said she was a mistake before her own rework.

Thresh...well assassin mains hate one thing. Counterplay. They want to get a kill uninterrupted and expect their enemy to stand there and do nothing.

Anyway, usually outplays doesn't necessarily mean how you can fight and outdamage. It can be playing a mind game and tricking the opponent. Like one time an ally flashed on a brush, which made the enemy thing he flashed over the wall. That's an outplay.

Another time when I was playing Urgot and was chasing an enemy low hp Ezreal. He teleports over wall but I fire my ulti before he even casts his e and the second he lands, my ulti hits him and boom, dead.

AFilthyCaitMainOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

For Illaoi, she is tough in tight corridors. The smaller the space, the more threatening she is. And her ulti is based on how many enemy champs are nearby. Illaoi is strong vs teamfights but weak in 1v1 or 1v2.

Darius i agree. He's a bit problematic.

Ashe does need a cooldown for her slow passive. That would make her require skill to play. Even sejuani has a cooldown on her passive.

Rengar is a bullshit champ anyway. Anti cc with cc. That champ is toxic to begin with.

Irelia is a mistake anyway. Even Morello said she was a mistake before her own rework.

Thresh...well assassin mains hate one thing. Counterplay. They want to get a kill uninterrupted and expect their enemy to stand there and do nothing.

Anyway, usually outplays doesn't necessarily mean how you can fight and outdamage. It can be playing a mind game and tricking the opponent. Like one time an ally flashed on a brush, which made the enemy thing he flashed over the wall. That's an outplay.

Another time when I was playing Urgot and was chasing an enemy low hp Ezreal. He teleports over wall but I fire my ulti before he even casts his e and the second he lands, my ulti hits him and boom, dead.

Illaoi is a typical juggernaut. Loves 1v1's and skirmishes but hard loses teamfights due to kiting and peel

DalekZecOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Illaoi is a typical juggernaut. Loves 1v1's and skirmishes but hard loses teamfights due to kiting and peel

Naturally, kiting and peeling are a counter to a juggernaut but doesn't mean she's useless in teamfights. The amount of tentacle she can spawn from her ulti she can go full Kraken on them all.

She's supposed to be strong in small spaces and grouped up team because of how easy it'll be to land her R, W and Q.

AFilthyCaitMainOct 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Naturally, kiting and peeling are a counter to a juggernaut but doesn't mean she's useless in teamfights. The amount of tentacle she can spawn from her ulti she can go full Kraken on them all.

She's supposed to be strong in small spaces and grouped up team because of how easy it'll be to land her R, W and Q.

Any competent team won't just stand in her ult and die, nor get in that situation in the first place. The higher rank you go, the harder it is to be useful on illaoi. Illaoi's strong suit is forcing a few people to fight her top, leaving her team to push objectives.

DalekZecOct 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Any competent team won't just stand in her ult and die, nor get in that situation in the first place. The higher rank you go, the harder it is to be useful on illaoi. Illaoi's strong suit is forcing a few people to fight her top, leaving her team to push objectives.

Well duh. A good Illaoi will have to be patient and look for a good teamfights opportunity. Like the last time I played her was I never used my ulti unless it was on baron or Dragon pit as well as jungle, but never in lanes. But when I'm forced to ulti I often go in (with flash and other jump in items) and try to cause as much damage as I can depending on what the enemy comp is and what my item build is.

MasterDCloneOct 15, 20195 votes

most of those are outplays, and people will always complain when they die, back in the day this 2 sided thing happened as well lol, this isn't new

DOUBLE TAPPED EOct 14, 20194 votes

Even worse is the opposite, when I get legitimately outplayed and my team goes "wow you are so bad" its like no... my opponent is just better, wtf.

Taterbug7Oct 14, 20193 votes

Man, I remember a couple of years ago before everything got completely out of hand, I could escape two even sometimes three enemies as Jhin(I repeat: JHIN, League's residential stick in the mud) because I could use his kit well enough to throw down some traps and land some well-placed W's to root whoever was chasing me. You can't really do somethng like that anymore because of A. Movement speed, and B. If one enemy gets close to you, you're going to die. That's it. I've never been great at this game, but I can no longer make what few outplays I could before due to the poor state of the game. It's disheartening.

ThefrostyvikingOct 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Man, I remember a couple of years ago before everything got completely out of hand, I could escape two even sometimes three enemies as Jhin(I repeat: JHIN, League's residential stick in the mud) because I could use his kit well enough to throw down some traps and land some well-placed W's to root whoever was chasing me. You can't really do somethng like that anymore because of A. Movement speed, and B. If one enemy gets close to you, you're going to die. That's it. I've never been great at this game, but I can no longer make what few outplays I could before due to the poor state of the game. It's disheartening.

Jhin? Stick in the mud?

Bro he has a movespeed buff in his passive, he´s a walking stick on dry land.

Try something like KogMaw if you want a barrel in the mud.

Kai GuyOct 14, 20193 votes

Players dropped accountability. Its not Skill its lack of skill. No ones BETTER then you its cuz something just Broken or some one else is awful or the Devs are stupid.

People are always looking for any "Elo Hell" Excuses to justify any gaps between their opinion of personal skill and a gap in results. I had a recent loss on an Alt primarily to 2 players on the enemy team. A Leona Illaoi . Teammates would attempt to 100 to 0 Rush their Illaoi in areas she had established her passive. Get hit by the E. Then she would R. They would then stand and fight to the death in the middle of that R and bitch about how broken she was. As the Leo chain CC to keep folks in place for massive aoe tentacle …. stuff and allow Illaoi to sustain by breaking the burst damage patterns of our team.

Rather then listen to Adc and My request of don't rushlike you have all game and please Run from her R. Team just did the same thing over and over and got the same result every time.

No accountability for it. Just rage and blame. Blamed teammates. Blamed Top. Blamed Devs. Blamed everything....besides themselves. At any point the decision to not try to rush into and kill a massively ahead champion could have been made. The smart play would be to kite and peel for adc. It never happened.

The issue with "Damage" Meta is sheep players are idiots if they don't understand why something is strong. Players drive gameplay in PVP games. If you play constantly feast or famine and your opponents are also constantly playing feast or famine... Your going to see gameplay be feast or famine.

Worst JG WinsOct 14, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwaoPkzH,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-10-14T21:04:29.074+0000)

Never fight if you're melee 4Head

That sounds balanced too me.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Also, i will now reefer to Illaoi as Mary Jane

Kai GuyOct 14, 20193 votes

Standing there in her R is just stupid. Kite. If you don't know how to do anything besides right click and rush at a target don't play Melee champions.

Not a difficult mechanic. Plenty of champions you need to play around specefic ability's high points and this is usualy done by moving away form the threat then behaving around their CD. Tryndamere Darius Fiora Garen Jax Nasus TahmKench Gnar

When you blow all your mobility to get into point blank range and lack kill potential your giving away kills.

xelakerOct 15, 20193 votes

The wild power spikes and jumps throughout the match makes it hard to tell if someone is good or high damage, high mobility champs are always gonna look slick no matter what. Of course there are legit outplays and good jukes/hits in every game, but kits are so darn loaded that it's hard not to have a few moments per game.

GilxeNOct 15, 20193 votes

Well I don't feel outplayed when 0-3 Talon, one shots me in one combo with only Dusk blade, when I have zhonyas and half item to Luden's echo as a mage.

SaezioOct 14, 20192 votes

My take on this is that because fights are hella shorter right now, you don't have the time to display skill like you used to.

Like, back in season 1-2-3 a 1v3 could still happen from some champions, but because the time it took was longer, and all the animations, sidesteps and everything was easier to see and comprehend, you just had more time to display good mechanics. Right now everything is extremely fast, and most of the time, whoever lands the first blow wins the fight because of how much more damage each blow deals.

Remember when at level 3 any champion had to use their rotations at least 2-3 times with an ignite to kill you from 100% hp? Right now it's not like that at all. I blame runes for the most part, because they have homogenised 90% of champs into 3-4 categories. Assassins(electrocute 1-combo champs) /Bruisers(conqueror, 2 rotation champs)/Scalers(klepto)/Pokers(comet/aery mostly in bot as support)/Support tanks(aftershock) and if you don't fit any of those you are pretty much guaranteed to find yourself off the meta.

3TWarriorOct 15, 20191 votes

well, it was more like 2 combos instead of 3, but yeah. 70% or so used to be the kill threshold instead of pretty much anything

some assassins like you at full health because it doesn't matter to them XD

SirTauntsALotOct 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Gets a triple kill toplane 3v1 as illaoi "Omg braindead"

manages to get 2 kills in a 3v1 as Darius before dying "God thats broken"

kites as ashe "That permaslow is so fking stupid"

Manages to bushweave as rengar as toplane rengar, then turns a gank around for a double kill* "Like wtf is that bs"

Lands a 3 man stun as irelia, then kills all 3 of them, while surviving with 4 hp "Overloaded omg"

Thresh internally screaming as he manages to somehow peel off 3 assassins off the very aggressive ally kogmaw "Fk thresh"

...ok, the last one is just said because I feel for any supports who have to deal with that mental stress, but honestly, how do you outplay anymore?

Remember when gosu being able to 1v5 as vayne was an actual display of skill?

Remember when jax being able to 2v1 was actually one of the most extremely difficult things to do?

Remember when the rengar 1 shot combo was actually really difficult to execute?

Now, because damage is so high, genuine outplays arent seen as outplays: because anyone can do them. Its getting harder to express skill level, aside from minor scuffles, but even then, your skill is rarely matched with your kda. I could be the best Malphite in the world, with excellent zoning and peel, but I could still go 0/11/19 because my team needs a meatshield.

Illaoi , Darious are S tier at the moment. That means they are stronger than 90 % of the top laners. That's why they are seen as broken. Yes damages are too high and there is nothing for tanks to do. We have said this countless times already.

dontspinbutwinOct 15, 20191 votes

Darius sits at a 49.45 percent winrate, fairly average. His average KDA is 6/6/4. He isn't S-tier.

Neither is illaoi, who sits at a 50.49 percent winrate, with an average KDA of 5/6/4.

Furthermore, they're juggernauts, not tanks. Theyre supposed to be effective against tanks, thats a big niche of theirs. Juggernauts specialize in close combat burst/sustain. Its how theyre marketed.

Tanks are marketed to soak damage, and use utility to help be a sturdy frontline. The frustration thats seen is that champions who are advertised as mobile duelists are better "tanks" than actual tanks.

ShahamutOct 15, 20192 votes

I usually die to Illaoi not from ult, but from constant E spam. Even a bad player hits a skill shot eventually. And when E lands? There goes 30% or more of your hp with no way to counter it if you aren't at max range to run out.

Moody POct 15, 20191 votes

yeah, after you get hit by spells you take damage?

Insane

ShahamutOct 15, 20191 votes

wow, you are so intelligent. /sarcasm

Its the fact that hitting that spell means you get to (over a good duration) lose a large portion of your health, in a manner where contesting the spirit is suicide, and leaving the area means you still take a TON of damage and now have to play dodge the tentacles, preventing recall options.

On top of that, she is allowed to use your spirit for klepto procs, lifesteal, and or grasp if she has that. The amount of damage that she gets to transfer to you is actually outrageous and is part of why her kit is so binary and bad in higher elos.

Its bad champion design to have her success so fully wrapped up in a single ability that she does literally nothing except wave clear OR completely dominates the lane all on whether or not she can land an E. This E can be landed point blank VERY easily into melee matches, which makes it even more snow-bally in its good use cases since, now you are in melee and have little option aside from running full distance away from her.

Have something of relevance to say or just leave the thread please. Discussion is wonderful, your snarky comment adds nothing except the appearance of your self-proclaimed superiority which is only self-defeating.

AhrisOct 15, 20192 votes

Riot nerfed outplaying mechanics a ton so many champs can no longer outplay. Those who can is prob still broken.

DeusVultOct 15, 20192 votes

IDK, I think that its just an extension of the "that didnt hit me" mindset that has always been in gaming. You know, when you shoot at an enemy and hit "you are good" but when an enemy does the exact same thing "this is bullshit, fuck this game."

Players will rarely respect what an opponents kit can do, and then cry OP when they get smacked by the kit doing what its supposed to do. Like ganking a Darius post 6 when both the laner and the jungler are not ahead, and then he kills both you you, or the same could be said for Morde killing your ganking jungler under his turret in death realm because you didnt respect his kit.

Thats all it is IMO

Charmy BirdOct 15, 20191 votes

Tbh I rl don't get why ashe has slow in her aa by default. Makes no sense to me. Her w has good slow her ult is stun with aoe slow. She already has 3 ways of kiting someone so imo she doesn't need the slow in her aa, someone would argue about her lack of mobility but adcs like kogmaw and varus are immobile too but they're not given any perma slow varus is stuck with his e slow which has shorter range than ashes and his ult and as for kog maw he only has his e. There are so many non mobile adc but for soem reason ashe is the only one who gets this privilege

3TWarriorOct 15, 20191 votes

kog-maw and varus also have huge range and high base damages. Ashe is more for her utility and versatility. Without her slow, her kit would be fairly underwhelming

Charmy BirdOct 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

kog-maw and varus also have huge range and high base damages. Ashe is more for her utility and versatility. Without her slow, her kit would be fairly underwhelming

And ashe doesn't? Ashe isn't any short ranged adc or a weak one. Ashe is in a way better place and more popular than both varus and kog maw. She definitely doesn't need perma slow.

3TWarriorOct 15, 20191 votes

I do not know how to explain ashe's sudden surge in pick rate/win rate but it is likely an external factor, such as suddenly being buffed or as it has always been problematic: Runes Reforged

it could even just be that champs are being picked which the particular champion is good against

When season 6 came around, Swain jumped to a 60% win rate because squishy AD champions were so powerful, people would make entire teams of them and he'd just kill them all

Charmy BirdOct 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I do not know how to explain ashe's sudden surge in pick rate/win rate but it is likely an external factor, such as suddenly being buffed or as it has always been problematic: Runes Reforged

it could even just be that champs are being picked which the particular champion is good against

When season 6 came around, Swain jumped to a 60% win rate because squishy AD champions were so powerful, people would make entire teams of them and he'd just kill them all

People just found out how truly strong she is. Personally I see no reason for the perma slow in her aa

ihateyouallmutedOct 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Manages to bushweave as rengar as toplane rengar, then turns a gank around for a double kill* "Like wtf is that bs"

lol, i really don't get how people lose to top lane rengar

KennekyOct 15, 20191 votes

I can relate to the Thresh scenario. No one appreciate you "taking the bullet" for the ADC, people see It as "feeding". What's that? I got ganked and I managed to get a double kill as Swain without any help, and what I get from my enemy? "You just pressed R" Of course I did that, what I'm supposed to do, not defend myself in a 1v2 situation? Said by Sylas (the enemy jungler), the very same person that used my ultimate during the gank. I'm not saying Swain is balanced, but it's not like I burst them both like an assassin or a burst mage.

YennOct 15, 20191 votes

Basically every pog video is someone with 10+ kills 'outplaying' their opponents by blowing them up before they can react, or side stepping a skill shot and flashing on them. A lot of them have started cropping the scores, because it's not as interesting when you realize it's a 12-2-5 Aatrox killing three 0-3-0 opponents

It's actually sad.

ßlameMyADCOct 15, 20191 votes

Nowadays the outplay relies in the information you have about your enemy. NOT engaging into an enemy who's stronger than you and then being able to come back at them with more people or a better pick for example, who scales better. Knowing what to pick, when to engage and when to stay out, when to use what ability to counter theirs, that's the outplay.

Sure there's still extremely good Zed's who utilize their shadow to play ring around the rosie with you who really outplay you and then there's a zed who drops his shadow, ults your ass and just teleports 25 miles away from you, waiting for his Ult timer to wear off and execute you.

Keep in mind, you also always play with people on your skill level. Unless you are some high tier player (I didn't check) the ones outplaying you are either doing so by coincidence or are OTPs.

O Fallen ScholarOct 15, 20191 votes

There's still outplay but a lot of people don't care anymore. They know that some champions are just stupid even when they can manage certain outplays. People get mental cus they've played the game for so long and seriously hate when someone "outplays" you. It's a mental issue not that there's a lack of display of outplays.

KuratchiOct 15, 20191 votes

LeeSin FeelsBadMan....

LeetriOct 15, 20191 votes

To be fair, people said all of that stuff before too just as often. It's never their fault and the opponent never outplayed them, they just picked an OP champion that automatically makes the player good at everything. It's the same in every other multiplayer game, not just League. I've never once encountered someone who says "wow he sure outplayed me there" without being sarcastic after they've died.