Conqueror is worth 3600 gold.

LAZ4RUS·Apr 4, 2018·4 votes·1,585 views

My last game I played Sion. The Fiora with conqueror was MELTING me even though I was full armor vs a full AD team, so I decided to do some calculations to see just how good Conqueror is on these fighter/bruiser type champions. FYI - These calculations only include auto attack damage numbers that are not increased or decreased by any effect other than conqueror, damage reduction via armor, and Black Cleaver(my control item). I had 3265.64 HP and 233 armor at level 16. This means I would take about 30.03% of all incoming damage (100/100+armor). Fiora had 260.8 AD at level 16. When conqueror was active she would be dealing 115.38 hp per auto, 52.16 true damage per auto and 63.22 physical damage. Calculation - (260.8*.20) + [(260.8*.80).3003], so effectively it took the Fiora 28.30 auto attacks to kill me from full hp. With Black Cleaver instead of conqueror, lets give her 265.8 AD(added 5 to remove conqueror and add black cleaver). Armor would be reduced to 177.08 (would be taking 36.09% incoming physical damage) at max Black Cleaver stacks. Fiora would here be doing about 95.93 damage(265.8.3609) per auto so it would have taken her 34.04 auto attacks to kill me from full hp. Here's why it's really broken, for Fiora to have this AD and have Black Cleaver in this game she would have had to spend another 3000 gold to get black cleaver! It takes 6 less autos to kill me with Conqueror which makes conqueror about 17% more effective than Black Cleaver at the same task. This makes Conqueror worth around 3510 gold on the right champions(due to the stats gained from building tri force second). It allows her and other bruiser/fighters to go Ravenous Hydra -> Tri Force and basically hit their 3 item spike at 2 items. No other keystone is even 10% this powerful on any of their respective users.

22 Comments

Hemulen MagiApr 4, 20182 votes

It might be overpowered but fighters seem to need it in order to compete with marksmen at the moment. I looked up the game in your match history and that Fiora still did less damage to champions than the marksmen on either team even though she does true %hp damage and was laning against an hp stacking tank. Fiora is riskier to play as than a marksman and she just offers damage without much CC/utility. Conqueror is power creep but it might be a necessary evil until Riot goes through with their plans to rework bot lane and marksmen.

LAZ4RUSApr 4, 20182 votes

She split pushed all game and was involved in maybe a single team fight all game. The only time she dealt damage to anyone was when someone tried to respond to her split, which usually resulted in being sent to a grey screen or immediately retreating. Also, her damage would be lower due to her dealing true damage as she doesn't need to inflict as much damage to inflict the same amount of health loss. It is much more than just overpowered. It allows a champ to kill a tank with 233 armor, with no armor pen or shred, faster than a champ without conqueror to kill the same tank that built another complete 3000 gold item that has armor shred built in. If she had been team fighting, she'd have definitely topped the damage chart by far.

Hemulen MagiApr 4, 20182 votes

Even with all that split pushing, Fiora only did about the same amount of damage to objectives as Varus who was considerably less fed and never even needed to get a Last Whisper against you. Fiora has almost the same kill participation as Varus too. I mean, yeah, getting shredded as a full armor super tank absolutely blows - I don't disagree with that. But it seems like melee fighters like Fiora need broken advantages just so that they can compete as a viable carry pick when compared to marksmen. If they didn't have abusive laning phases against certain matchups, they would be pretty pointless since they can't teamfight as well as ranged carries so they often need to split push lategame just to remain a valuable team member.

LAZ4RUSApr 4, 20181 votes

You're missing the point completely. I don't care if they need a good keystone. A never-ending supply of true damage is absurd. Split pushing is what this allows them to do and makes it good because now you have to send 2+ people to get her to even back off because there is no way to 1v1 her.

Hemulen MagiApr 4, 20182 votes

I'm not missing the point. I don't like the damage creep either. I would rather Riot balanced the game differently, but I do think that Conqueror is likely technically 'balanced' as in fighters are not overshadowing or replacing other damage carry roles even with Conqueror being in the game. Conqueror might technically be balanced while still feeling oppressive to play against. I agree that it feels bad to be unable to function as a tank against so much true damage but it also feels bad to be shredded by a marksman who doesn't even build Last Whisper. Conqueror users, like Fiora Yasuo Trundle Jax Tryndamere Aatrox , are supposed to be melee fighter damage carries of equivalent value to other carry roles like marksmen, so Conqueror might be technically 'balanced' as long as they aren't outperforming and replacing other choices of damage carries. Power creep feels bad to play against even while technically balancing the game.

NemeBroApr 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're missing the point completely. I don't care if they need a good keystone. A never-ending supply of true damage is absurd. Split pushing is what this allows them to do and makes it good because now you have to send 2+ people to get her to even back off because there is no way to 1v1 her.

"WHY CAN'T I BE A TANK AND 1V1 THE DUELING SKIRMISHER ANYMORE WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!"

A Sion complaining about any champion is ridiculous.

FreewalkerApr 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No other keystone is even 10% this powerful on any of their respective users.

Dark harvest can sometimes lead to a nuclear late game, but I agree. Conqueror's true damage is absurd for melee champs. True damage has no counterplay, so it doesn't matter if you're a tank or a squishy, a top laner can shred through anything that doesn't kill it first, and the top laner is often the one who needs true dmg dealt to.

I'm a support main, so I don't see top lane often, but when I do I keep seeing all this true damage on my death summary. Tbh, I find that it's not the matter of giving the true dmg, but I think that Conqueror gives it too often.

LAZ4RUSApr 4, 20181 votes

It can but in theory they can have this buff for the entire duration of a teamfight as it refreshes the buff on melee auto attacks to champions.

FreewalkerApr 4, 20181 votes

True. When I take Dark Harvest, I'm always scrambling for the nearest cannon minion after proccing the first harvest.

LAZ4RUSApr 4, 20181 votes

I feel like another problem is that people don't put enough thought into how good true damage really is.

redniwediSApr 4, 20182 votes

The true damage is a conversion of regular physical damage, so against a low armor target it might as well not be there.

If you really had to beat her one on one you probably shouldn't have invested so much of your gold into armor. Raw health with a focus on damage might have been more effective.

That said Fiora is a special something, and I personally enjoy banning her when I play.

LAZ4RUSApr 4, 20181 votes

With no armor you die in 12 auto attacks with 3200 HP. The only thing you convert by not building armor is ALL of their ad into true damage. Wanna try again? Yet again, this has nothing to do with the champion, this is just basic attacks, ad, and armor. It has the same effect on any melee champ.

redniwediSApr 4, 20182 votes

Let me put it this way; she can't kill you if she's dead. I did say you should have a focus on damage, didn't I? What you did clearly wasn't working. What exactly are you going to try next, the same thing? You're just going to get the same result if you do, so you might as well spend your time figuring out something else to try.

Champions do matter in this, because not all champions have innate true damage built into their kit. Fiora was stacking that rune with her innate percent health true damage, which makes the problem worse. On other champions Conqueror is strong, but not nearly as strong as it is on Fiora.

LAZ4RUSApr 4, 20181 votes

None of that math is including her passive damage. Just her auto attacks with conqueror. Might help you argued you actually read the OP. This post is about potential, not what actually happened. I was surprised by what I saw so I checked the potential damage output of conqueror at the point where my game ended and the POTENTIAL is absurd.

redniwediSApr 4, 20181 votes

And the math is accurate, however math in a vacuum isn't particularly useful. There are always additional variables that change how usable your potential math is.

Being able to deal serious damage to Fiora lowers her effective damage output, because harming you becomes a potential risk. Having a champion against her that is designed and balanced around absorbing damage while dishing it out more slowly lowers the risk. Your math is good, but the statements you made that do not involve your math are a problem.

It allows her and other bruiser/fighters to go Ravenous Hydra -> Tri Force and basically hit their 3 item spike at 2 items. No other keystone is even 10% this powerful on any of their respective users.

Let's take Camille as an example. She does actual absurd damage with either Hydra and a Trinity Force, but taking Conqueror actually lowers her effectiveness, even if it's on paper power is huge. Her best keystone is Arcane Comet, because it assists her in safely poking her opponent down before ever risking a full engagement.

For Fiora yes she does absurd damage with Conqueror, but it is not her most effective keystone. Her win rate with Conqueror is 48%, but with Kleptomancy it is 53%. Conqueror is doubling down on something she already does well, so a keystone that instead assists her in accelerating her build is far more effective in a practical sense.

Your post does cover the potential damage really well, however your conclusions attempt to cover both the potential and the practical. The practical answer here is that Conqueror is a mediocre keystone on most champions.

LAZ4RUSApr 4, 20181 votes

My conclusion is just simply just that though, the theoretical power is much too high for a keystone. Fiora is good into tanks and I should've used a different champ to make my point. I don't believe that the full value of the keystone has been realized and taken advantage of yet. I think there is potential to abuse this keystone and when it happens it's going to change a lot of the opinions about Conqueror.

RexxieeApr 4, 20181 votes

Here we go again with the low elos thinkin that conqueror is good lol.

Its not good, in fact most champs have lower WR with it than with another keystone, in high elo almost nobody is using it anymore save from very few champs taht have nothing better to use.

It needs a buff its kind of too weak early game.

LAZ4RUSApr 4, 20181 votes

Did you read the math? Its all correct, I assure you.

Hemulen MagiApr 4, 20182 votes

I don't know... When I look up Plat+ stats on champion.gg, Conqueror is the highest winrate keystone on a decent number of melee fighters, Yasuo Trundle Jax Tryndamere Aatrox to name a few, so I wouldn't say it's weak though I also wouldn't say it's necessarily overpowered. I do think it's damage creep which is annoying and makes the game less fun for a lot of people, but I also think that unfortunately several melee fighters need it to compete for a carry role in the game right now.

LAZ4RUSApr 4, 20181 votes

Would you all rather my analyze the Yasuo. From the same game and his damage output with/without conqueror?

LAZ4RUSApr 4, 20181 votes

In order for her to deal that much damage to me, without having the 20% true damage, she would have to have 384.22 AD. As she doesnt have any armor pen or shred, it is basically the equivelant to gaining 123.42 AD. By the gold efficiency standard that 10 AD is worth 350 gold(longsword), this makes conqueror(yes I know it is only in situations vs tanks, but that's kinda the poimt of all this) is, efficiency related, worth 4320 gold in this situation. The Yasuo from the same game would have had 356.2 AD with conqueror active. With his 100% crit and 225% damage on grits he would have been dealing 352.83 damage per auto ,160.29 true damage per auto and 192.54 physical famage per auto, without taking into consideration the armor pen he had from last whisper and 9 auto attacks to kill me. 45.4% of his actual damage dealt is via true damage.

C9 Squeeky Apr 4, 20181 votes

Vitals deal max % HP true dmg, she destroys tanks. True dmg has more value the more armor (or MR) the target has because it is negating/ignoring all of their resistances, making their gold spent less efficient.