So we’ve been discussing how busted armor pen is to the point where armor doesn’t feel useful.
What would happen if we revert the armor pen formula to.
Flat—-> percent
Right now it’s Percent—-> flat which makes armor pen really really good.
If we revert the changes it would reinforce the idea that %pen is for tank busters, and flat is for squishy busters. That way you can’t just double up on both sets of champs with better scaling damage.
Ragnaveil9 votesAgain, people thought tanks fell out because the meta changed. I can tell you without reasonable doubt that was not the case. Pen was changed to this formula and it took people a while to realize it dicks tanks that stack resists because they were busy observing ADC changes. This honestly was the single biggest change that happened besides the failed adc rework.
GigglesO3 votesIt didn’t just dick over tanks it made it so anyone that builds both dicks squishy champs harder too.
I don’t think the armor pen change alone dicked tanks. I think it’s the cumulative small changes.
Personally I think old thornmail with 30% incoming damage return was better than this new one. Sure you stop adcs from healing 50% of their 10%-20% of their 500 damage autos... but before you returned 30% of their 1k incoming damage...
Ragnaveil4 votesIssue was ADs and other squishes were already getting blown up before these changes, not saying they didn't help, but it for sure made armor and magic resist stats much weaker. Old thorn was great, i'll give you that.
TimeToDieSuckers1 votesReturning 30% damage? Sounds broken, how would any top laner lane against that? Not just ADC's are effected.
GigglesO1 votes(Almost) No one built thornmail back then because it was considered garbage. When damage was low and sustain high it didn’t seem to do much.
They changed it in season 5 which I don’t think is a coincidence. That’s when damage in the game started increasing more than normal. If it still retuned 30% damage everyone would build it every game. (Which is why they had to remove it)
League is not the same game as it used to be.
TimeToDieSuckers1 votesEven back then returning 30% was a death sentence for AA based champions, literally took as much damage as you dealt. (Pretty sure the reflected damage was calculated before armor) in other words 100 AD = 30 reflected damage, even if after the opponents armor you only hit for 50.
Surprisingly few people built it vs AA bruisers, but it pretty much counters their existence.
GigglesO1 votesOh hit builds and lifesteal/sustain were more common too. Double blood thirster anyone?
Lovelle6 votesThis has been a thing since at least the beginning of S3. S5 was the exception, since the defensive masteries were crazy strong for a while.
I remember Riot's initial reason for doing so was to make assassins (and burst champions in general) feel more rewarding to play, but that's honestly where all the problems started that we currently face.
Z3Sleeper2 votesIt's cuz back then all we had was Brutalizer/Youmuu and Last Whisper. So Assassins were essentially forced into those two items.
Then after that change we got BC and then Lethality.
Like, this change was made for back in the day
when Talon's core build was: 
(Brutalizer) 
Wolfeur4 votesWhat do you mean, "revert"?
GigglesO7 votesAs explained in the body of the text the armor pen formula is currently: %penetration then flat/lethality. It used to be the other way around.
Say you have 25% armor pen 50 lethality (using easy numbers)
Current formula with 200 armor 300*(1-.25)= 225 225- 50 = 175
You have 175 armor.
Old formula 300-50=250 250*(1-.25) = 187 armor ——————————————
Likewise on a squishy 80 armor target Current formula = 10 armor Old formula = 22 armor
It prevents stack abuse and makes it better if you either stack all % pen or all lethality. It also keeps armor values slightly higher in the case of stacking both.
Wolfeur2 votesIt used to be the other way around? When? In beta?
GigglesO3 votesI didn't play in beta and I started 1/10th of the way through season 1 so it was after that. I believe it was somewhere going into season 2-3. Back when tank items were dominate and even the adc's would build them.
They did it because armor pen wasn't good enough at the time. Now its maybe a bit too good so we could look at a revert and go back to the old style armor pen where percent and flat don't have as great of synergy.
Wolfeur1 votesDamn, I'm just starting to remember reading about it… I completely forgot!
Pokemonred2003 votesit was changed to work that way in Season 3. In alpha, beta, Season 1, and Season 2, flat pen was calculated before percent pen, so they made each other less effective instead of more effective.
Lovelle2 votesSeason 3 is when the penetration formula was first changed.
Done2517 votesWhat do you mean, "revert"?
It used to be such that the game calculated flat penetration before scaling, but people complained because it felt bad. Keep in mind this is back when Ghostblade was the only flat phy pen item and Last Whisper didn't have any upgrades.
DeusVult2 votesIf Riot did end up reverting it though, it would instantly make building armor pen/lethality FEEL worse. It wouldnt necessarily be worse in 50+% of games since most games end before people complete their lethality items and a % armor pen item.
But it would cause an uproar in the playerbase of said lethality using champs. Which would make Riot do what they do best; compensation buffs. So lethality would come out stronger.
The current system is fine. If a person goes full lethality, and attacks a champ with 0 armor items, that champ will explode. Even if you change the system, this will still happen. And even if you didnt, the % based pen against a champ with no armor items is only about 7-8 armor removed.
If a lethality champ goes against a tank with 2-3 armor items, their lethality doesnt matter. losing 30 armor when you have 250 doesnt matter, and even losing that 30 armor after % reduction doesnt really matter. (because that lethality user is using their damage vs a tank, rather than a squishy)
The only thing that I personally want to see be removed/reduced from the game is the amount of true damage that Riot seems to toss onto everything now
Iota Theta3 votesIf Riot did end up reverting it though, it would instantly make building armor pen/lethality FEEL worse. It wouldnt necessarily be worse in 50+% of games since most games end before people complete their lethality items and a % armor pen item.
But it would cause an uproar in the playerbase of said lethality using champs. Which would make Riot do what they do best; compensation buffs. So lethality would come out stronger.
The current system is fine. If a person goes full lethality, and attacks a champ with 0 armor items, that champ will explode. Even if you change the system, this will still happen. And even if you didnt, the % based pen against a champ with no armor items is only about 7-8 armor removed.
If a lethality champ goes against a tank with 2-3 armor items, their lethality doesnt matter. losing 30 armor when you have 250 doesnt matter, and even losing that 30 armor after % reduction doesnt really matter. (because that lethality user is using their damage vs a tank, rather than a squishy)
The only thing that I personally want to see be removed/reduced from the game is the amount of true damage that Riot seems to toss onto everything now
Well reverting it wouldn’t affect champs that build one or the other, but it would affect champs that build both % and flat, making it less effective of a build.
Clone Is Friend1 votesjust delete true dmg and we good
General Esdeath 3 votesSo let me get this straight and maybe clarify for people who don't understand it.
Riven has (let's pretend) 25% armor pen and 30 flat armor pen.
Malphite has 100 armor.
Riven hits Malphite and the formula reduces his armor by 25% (to 75) and then removes 30, making his armor (in this instance) 45?
GigglesO3 votesThat’s the current formula not the seasons 1-3 formula.
General Esdeath 3 votesThat’s the current formula not the seasons 1-3 formula.
That's what I said. (in this instance)
Sleepcoma3 votesNot sure what you're talking about, lethality items are trash. Assassins build them because they have nothing else to build.
kμrayami3 voteswhat are you talking about? lethality items are trash rn when an item like 
counter a full 
i guess 2 or 3 lethality items + a 
or a 
can be good late game eventhought it doesnt give you much ad so... but whats the point? do you want armor pen be easy to counter on early/mid and late game???
edit: '' how busted armor pen is to the point where armor doesn’t feel useful'' https://clips.twitch.tv/ReliableCooperativeRuffTooSpicy yikes
The thigh guy2 votesI mean. I’d honestly just change base armor so it’s always there, and cannot be penetrated through or reduced by % drains like black cleaver.
LTK KoRo2 voteswhat would be point of flat pen then
The thigh guy2 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vwKU9Hk9,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-03-06T21:12:00.889+0000)
what would be point of flat pen then
To break through ga armor. Or the single armor item people build.
LTK KoRo2 votesi dont think anyone would feel good with buying 3 flat pen items just to remove worth of one mediocre armor item. assassins would be back to ravenous+crit i guess
The thigh guy2 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vwKU9Hk9,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-06T21:20:34.954+0000)
i dont think anyone would feel good with buying 3 flat pen items just to remove worth of one mediocre armor item. assassins would be back to ravenous+crit i guess
It’s not like they wouldn’t still give you the single biggest power boost in the game at that point.
LTK KoRo1 votesprobably they wouldn't since they would be countered by one big armor item. Also let's remember that base armor scales up to ~100-110 on most of the champions. That's unpenetrable 50% damage reduction. I don't think that would end well
The thigh guy2 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vwKU9Hk9,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-06T21:26:18.303+0000)
probably they wouldn't since they would be countered by one big armor item. Also let's remember that base armor scales up to ~100-110 on most of the champions. That's unpenetrable 50% damage reduction. I don't think that would end well
They still would be the biggest damage amps in the game against squishies though. Each point of armor is suppose to be +1% effective health.
So essentially a duskblade’s lethalty alone is 14% (averaging) bonus damage, before adding in its ad and passive.
Wild Geese2 votesWasn't the change made because Last Whisper was changed from total armor to bonus armor? Since Last Whisper total armor again, maybe reverting the formula makes sense.
Either that or return LW to bonus.
five oh tree 2 votesI think you're overestimating what the effect of this would be.
Who actually builds both % and flat armor pen? Maybe assassins and 
? ADC's don't even bother building any pen basically.
So if we reasonably assume the targets of the champs building both kinds of pen are squishy, this has barely any effect.
30% armor pen 30 lethality for example.
Let's say a squishy has 80 armor.
It goes from reducing it to 26 armor | (80(.7)) - 30
to reducing it to 35 armor | (80-30).7
By the time you have this much % and flat pen, 9 armor is not going to make much of a difference. **Not only that, this would just encourage people to build % shred and flat pen together to circumvent this change's effect. This would bring back the 
meta of season 3. **
I mean this is just going to completely ruin mid laners' balance more than anything and either gut voidstaff or sorc boots.
iamthegoatofwar2 votes...Not trying to sound rude or anything but...when the hell was pen done THAT way...I can't seem to recall.
LTK KoRo2 votessometime in s3. A long time ago when flat armor pen existed on two items and most optimal builds on assassins included ravenous hydra and IE
iDarkWind2 votesSure. If we revert lethality to a stat that isn't a scaling stat like it is currently and at the same time buff Black Cleaver back to 36% ArmorPen while decreasing even further Last Whisper cost like it used to be. Or are you forgetting about all of those changes?
Barso552 votesWell, if you go 3 lethality items + Last whisper item where any of this is actually relevant, you have only one item slot left after boots and have low total AD (all the lethality items and the last whisper item have significantly lower AD than stuff like BT, Ravenous Hydra, etc.)
You lose out on other AD stats or tank stats. I think its a fair tradeoff.
Astrovert2 votesLeague has turned into a game of I don't want to play that role.
No one really wants to play top lane because its no longer effective unless you are playing the blessed 3 champions No one wants to play support because you are basically a servant to adc and cant really perform on your own. No one wants to play mid because unless you are on Zed its lame and ineffective.
This leaves almost all the action coming from 2 roles in the game.
Then they wonder why people quit and don't want to play League.
Hey I know a solution how about more champions that turn invisible that there is no counter for because why just ruin Summoners Rift when you can ruin Arams too. Or the REAL solution you will see...more true damage to everyone.
Remember when League was about counterplay? It appears management will only realize its error when the playerbase numbers fall off a cliff.
League is dying, mostly because the playerbase has deemed it so. The game doesn't need to physical die to be deemed dead. It just has to generally be accepted as not what it used to be and pretty much everyone is at that point. The final coffin nail will come when a game like it that is actually balanced comes out. It is far easier to get others to play a "new" game then retry one that's been broken for a while.
GigglesO1 votesBut players don’t want to play “that role” because as another thread mentioned it’s hard to remember 100+ champs exist when it’s always the same 10-20 that get riots attention. It’s not fun being burst with little counterplay, and unless defense is worth picking up it’s who can punch first and the hardest.
This damage on damage on damage style change list just feels like shit to play.
Terchio2 votesHere's the thing... right now, Percent Armor Pen and Flat Armor Pen work together, becoming highly powerful. If we're tired of them being so powerful, another option is just nerfing their power, possibly to the point they're exclusively used together or against specialized squishy teams or tanky teams. Riot wants to leave a way for you to squeeze your Duskblade out early game and still turn around and Black Cleaver some use out of it when the tanks start bullying you around.
However, what happens when you flip it, and make damage penetrations mutually exclusive, or not work together? This makes both singular types less viable as well, which means their values should be going up to compensate. This, in effect, will cause specialized teams to be that much easier to counter with a single damage type, but also be just as oppressive against members of that type you want to hold back, usually the squishies.
Imagine what would happen if , for example, a Wukong had this buffed value and doubled up on the boosted Armor values? His 30% APen debuff would likely be raised to 40% due to not being as viable with Lethality, and then he grabs a Black Cleaver, which has now been boosted to 30% maximum. Suddenly Wukong is shredding 58% of all Armor on a choice tank target on Q-ulti instead of his current 46.8%. Or a Rengar getting 15 on ulti along with 18 on Duskblade and 7 on Lethality Rune when you'd currently expect 12, 16, and 5 at that point of the game. Suddenly you have a 40 APen early game up from the old 33, and that 7 armor is heavy on squishies that are already low.
Overall point, the fact that % and Flat Pen work together makes the values theoretically lower than they'd be if the two stats worked against each other. Because of this, you can build both together effectively, but cheesing strats on stacking only % Pen or only Flat Pen are less powerful, and in effect should only be truly effective on assassins who target backlines, juggernauts who target frontlines, or in games the enemy team overbuilds either tank or squishy.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesAye.
Bisaknosp1 votesi have no idea what the fuck these boards are talking about i agree that some champs are way too good at killing tanky targets but i dont see how tanks are as weak as boards make it out to be XD?
Clone Is Friend1 votesyeah. armor might feel bad against champs that use conqueror and build last whisper and echt but there are problems if armor became stronger, jugernauts would be unbeatable by everyone because they could not be killed if they just built one armor item and tabi and just blocked like 70% of the dmg, had 3000hp and did the dmg they do atm.
so that means juggernatus would need nerf, and then pure tanks would be actually better making more champs build that. (dont mean sion or mao cuz they already strong) also this would mean assassins would need buff too because if armor was stronger then adc could just build ninjatabi and it would be the ninjatabi meta all over again, assassins could not dmg bruisers and tanks which would make it very unfun for assassins when they could not dmg anyone. and if armor was stronger so would be mages since tanks would start to prioritize armor more and this would make mages even stronger as if they arent strong already.