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After reading the boards for a while

Potato Doc··17 votes·1,030 views

EDIT: It seems that quite a few people are jumping to conclusions here so I guess ill put a note here. This post is about how when a champion has a very strong committed fight, yet also have very strong non-committed damaging abilities it causes frustration because they are rewarded even if they mess up or are rewarded for keeping their distance, and then when the time is right to engage while on the other hand other champions who are just as strong are required to be all in or nothing. Nobody has above a 65% win rate and as such I do not say they need nerfs, I am not even suggesting nerfs because we all know the huge chaotic hate storm all of those cause. Im just raising awareness for the reason people are so frustrated when playing against champions with this mechanic. Almost maybe hopefully to reduce the amount of "plz nerf X champion" threads

It dawned on me, it seems that many of the champions that are complained about, while their numbers are strong, also have one thing in common, the lack of committment needed in engagements and are strong in both commitment and non-committment.

LeeSin , he has 3 opt outs if the situation goes sour.

  • Q- you can hit an enemy champion and wait a bit to ensure you want to go in (or suffer from leesyndrome and go in anyways), however it can also be used on creeps and jungle minions without vision originally and escape

  • W- pretty self explanitory, allows for one to be non committal to a Q, or a gank, however it also offers some creativity if you do want to engage allowing to skip over walls both offensive and defensively

  • R- again while can be used offensively, if you engage and realize its a bad situation you are able to kick someone away and potentially CC others aswell

with lee its so annoying/frustrating because of how quickly this mobility comes into play with most of it being possible at lv 2

Zed has 2 opt outs, and 3 abilities that are distanced

  • W- can be used both offensively and defensively while the ability to be creative with it is high, almost any "epic zed is so amazing outplays" are almost always the same (no seriously guys im sick of the same move^^ and people thinking its new or cool)

  • R- not only can it be used offensively, but the ability to not only become untargetable allowing to dodge, but regardless of how far he is he can go back to his point of origin almost instantly if you mash the R button, the reason it is strong is because of how confusing this ability is, not because the player is smart, but because in high intensity situations reactions are more focused on Zeds target then the point of origin. Extremely non-committal since you can in and out without much thought. Mixed with his W its one of the best GTFO's in the game

  • W+Q+E(possible + R): a melee that doesn't actually have to get close to deal damage while having it readily accessible and can choose if he wants to go in afterwards. lack of commitment to anything causes this combo to be frustrating since it is also a rather high damage combo

Nidalee : has 1 extremely short CD opt out, gets benefits from not being committed, while also getting buffs for being committed

  • Cougar hop: both offensive and defensive allows to hop over quite a few walls allowing for even more distance put between her and opponent with no cost, however if the target is marked she gains 2x the distance (wot?) oh and she also gains a refresh for killing a unit. and if she hunts a target it gets lowered to 1.5s CD...

  • Spear toss: gains damage as it hits targets farther away. She gains extra damage for moving away herself (seriously thats dumb), single target nuke, high spammability that are known to deal 1/2 of an opponents HP with a single spear, Talk about non committal champions :/

  • Passive: not only does she gain extra movement speed from her cougar form along with the pounce but she also gains MS for being in a bush AND also gaining MS by having a marked target which increases when going towards the target making it a max of 60% (maybe it adds like tenacity which would make it a bit less but not much) lets compare this to udyr who at max bear stance gains 35% MS and gains an 8 second CD on his ability. (im giving an example of a champion who has to be committed to his damage on opponents)

Now obviously there are other champions (Kalista is another highly notable one) but I feel like mostly people are most frustrated when mechanics allow someone to not commit as much as other champions but still have the same damage output if not more, then other champions. Especially when it is more about picking people off.

I mean when you are an ADC like ashe against an udyr, you cant be mad if you have both Q and red buff and because udyr is smart is able to out play you by faking you out and tricking you into getting closer (well okay you can be mad but really the fault is on you for falling for his quick thinking and creativity)

However its so frustrating when you have easily won a duel and the person escapes over a wall and you arent (because of lack of flash or wall jumping abilities) and they are rewarded in both escaping and or chasing you if you were in the same situation as they are.

No champion is perfect since no one has 65+% win rate but some are infinitely more frustrating then others

TL:DR rewarding people for being non-committal while also rewarding them for being committed too is extremely frustrating for everyone. I dont know how to fix these, i just know what the problem is

^^ When i talk about this im talking about casting your W in the opposite direction from where you are walking forcing a catch 22 upon your enemy. Seriously it isnt impressive anymore so stop putting those in videos. Now if you are someone who is playing against zed and you correctly catch them pulling this move then you are a boss and should get a cookie gj for those impressive skills id watch those all day since it actually takes impressive forsight aka pulling a madlife

12 Comments

AmazingGoat7 votes

I generally disfavor investing a lot of thought and time in posting on threads like these, as I don't think it serves any real purpose other than venting, but I feel inclined to chime in on this one for some reason.

I think this is partially correct, but not entirely. The reason people are frustrated by champions who can easily go in on you and just as easily escape is because people play the game unduly focused on kills. In LCS games, solo kills in lane are incredibly rare because both players know when they cannot all in favorably. In solo queue, it is unusual not to see a solo kill in lane by 10 minutes. In this environment, where it is common for players to just throw up their hands and go in hoping to win, it is really advantageous to be able to get out if you realize you are actually going to lose the all in. If you are playing a champion that cannot do this, then it feels like you have no power early when every time you try to all in your enemy counterpart he either wins the all in, or realizes he is going to lose and backs out.

In reality, you just fail to appreciate that you are playing a strategy game rather than a fighting game, and that it isn't about winning 1v1s or even small skirmishes. Certain champions have kits that allow them to thrive in these circumstances, while other champions thrive in other circumstances. Zed and Lee Sin both have bad win rates at the moment, so it is hard to argue that they are overpowered. Instead, people love playing as them, and hate playing against them, because they overvalue the ability to duel.

FearTheDankness3 votes

Stop complaining about Lee Sin, he has a win rate of 46.7%, giving him the 15'th lowest win rate in game. Look at Lolking statistics and note that in the JG match-up chart he loses against every single jungler. Keeping all this in mind it it quite clear that Lee Sin being op is not a thing, the problem which you all are facing is that you suck, and are so bad at the game that you are letting a blind guy kick your a$$. Please stop spamming the boards with complaints about Lee sin and put your time to a better use by learning how to play the game. Thank you, Hell just got Raised .Talon

SEKAI1 votes

He has been in all Worlds (prob not S1), sporting 90 something % pick/ban ratio and 50%+ win rates in all of them I think.

Solo queue (where balance is thrown completely out of the window by non-existent communications/cooperation for the most part) isn't the be all and end all of this game.

Nor is win rate by itself means much if talked alone. LB was on 45% win rate when she was nerfed mind you, and before you start it was actually 100% justified in terms of intention, whether they overdid or not is for another thread.

are so bad at the game that you are letting a blind guy kick your a$$.

And no Lee isn't blind, he has better eyes than most champs in League I am sure you should have realised.

Potato Doc1 votes

{quoted}

Stop complaining about Lee Sin, he has a win rate of 46.7%, giving him the 15'th lowest win rate in game. Look at Lolking statistics and note that in the JG match-up chart he loses against every single jungler. Keeping all this in mind it it quite clear that Lee Sin being op is not a thing, the problem which you all are facing is that you suck, and are so bad at the game that you are letting a blind guy kick your a$$. Please stop spamming the boards with complaints about Lee sin and put your time to a better use by learning how to play the game. Thank you, Hell just got Raised .Talon

my good sir you are sorely mistaken, I wasnt complaining at all, heck i usually destroy lee sin when I play jungle vs jungle. What I was doing with this thread was a simple statement of a connection between champions that people complain about and my observation of the common mechanic that they all have which is the ability to deal damage regardless of being committed or not. Note I said frustrating, not that they are over powered.

However as for win rates, win rates are an interesting concept because they dont entirely show the full story, yes they can give someone a good idea of how balanced a champion is and is the typical way people look at champions if they are balanced. However when you introduce a champion who has a high skill cap then the win rates become faulty in showing good stats. Because the win rate is lowered by people who really dont have any mastery of the champion but think hes over powered because the pro's play him and they wanna mimic those winning strategies.

Before you rage and throw a hissy fit and get your panties in a bunch you should actually try to understand, not just read, a post. But alas the internet is full of people who react just like you who jump to conclusions

DisasterSola1 votes

{quoted}

my good sir you are sorely mistaken, I wasnt complaining at all, heck i usually destroy lee sin when I play jungle vs jungle. What I was doing with this thread was a simple statement of a connection between champions that people complain about and my observation of the common mechanic that they all have which is the ability to deal damage regardless of being committed or not. Note I said frustrating, not that they are over powered.

However as for win rates, win rates are an interesting concept because they dont entirely show the full story, yes they can give someone a good idea of how balanced a champion is and is the typical way people look at champions if they are balanced. However when you introduce a champion who has a high skill cap then the win rates become faulty in showing good stats. Because the win rate is lowered by people who really dont have any mastery of the champion but think hes over powered because the pro's play him and they wanna mimic those winning strategies.

Before you rage and throw a hissy fit and get your panties in a bunch you should actually try to understand, not just read, a post. But alas the internet is full of people who react just like you who jump to conclusions

I wouldnt take him seriously. that post is a copy and paste from reddit.

Potato Doc1 votes

{quoted}

I wouldnt take him seriously. that post is a copy and paste from reddit.

well regardless i put my point hope it was done well

cFlame2 votes

Your clearly correct, and whats even more frustrating is that itemization favors not committing to a fight for these champions.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

I think that's a good statement of why people are frustrated. For a Lee, Nid, or a Zed, it feels like your options are A) survive when they dive you, or B) die. You don't really have the same option of C) turn their dive on them and make them regret it that you have if, say, an Irelia, Nocturne, or even Talon dives you. Counterplay shouldn't be to "not die" or "not lose your lane". Rather, both players should be able to punish the other for making a miscalculation, or being caught out of position. I also think both laners should have to care about the same or similar gameplay mechanics. CSing, positioning, managing resources/cooldowns. These are all things that all champions should have to think about. Currently that's not the case.

It goes hand-in-hand with mobility creep and resourceless champions. Immobile, mana-based champions have to always be aware of their positioning. If the enemy team flanks you as Malzahar, or Anivia, you are dead without flash. Maybe you take one or two out with you, but you die unless your team is able to save you. If the enemy team flanks a Nidalee, she just free wall-hops to safety. Positioning means nothing, and it's one less thing she has to care about. Same with mana. At least a Leblanc has to ensure she doesn't run out of mana or else she will be trapped, while Zed, Lee, Kalista, Gnar, and Nid don't have to think about their resources when considering whether to use their mobility skills (Nid and Kali use mana but not their mobility skills).

TL;DR champions with free mobility don't have to care about resource management or positioning the same way other champions do, and this should be balanced in some way.

LordKentravyon2 votes

I agree Zed frustrates me to no end sometimes when I play Azir

He ults me at lev 6, I knock him up, shove him under tower, do what damage I can

and he just presses R again, shadow + flashes behind his turret and runs off

Doesn't matter if he mad a huge miscalculation on when to jump on me . (Doesn't try to exploit cooldowns (Q) , goes when I have both soliders available) If he gets me cool, if he can't he gets a free ticket out

If I miscalculated a dive on him i'd be dead in a heartbeat.

For assassins I feel like Talon's escape technique is a lot healthier, he has to choose "do i need it to get in their int he first place? Do I need to use it to secure the kill? Am I able to save it for my escape?" There's decision making on he assassins part and when he does use it to escape its countable with pink wards + good movement prediction with skillshots

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Yeah, people don't whine about actual OP, they whine about overloaded kits.

ForgiveColour1 votes

funny how you left the part where they think Ahri Fizz Kassadin Katarina Leblanc Lissandra is balanced

IcyPepper1 votes

Having problems with Kalista as melee? A combination of a gap closer and some cc will go a long way, not to mention some good burst to kill her glass cannon ass.

Vi Irelia

or build item 3075

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