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@WookieCookie: You would ban Junglers if the meta was 2-1-2, for failing to communicate "with" teams

DrCyanide··12 votes·1,157 views

For those of you looking for the background, here - http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/FrILlWp7-14-day-ban-because-playing-nunu-support-with-smite-is-stealing-other-peoples-roles?comment=00f0

When you start out playing League, lane assignments are pretty straight forward. 2 Top, 1 Mid, 2 Bot.

Suppose for a moment that 2-1-2 was the meta from Bronze 5 to LCS, with "Jungle" being the top lane Support that took Smite so they could kill Baron. How would you communicate "with" your teammates to consistently go our normal Jungle position where you abandon Top in a 2v1 situation and "AFK in the jungle"?

You know why the strategy of having someone farm the Jungle is better overall, after all, you invented it (in this scenario). But you've got to communicate the Gold/Experience/Objective Control/Pressure on Other Lanes advantage in a convincing way over chat to a disbelieving team in a time span of about 2 minutes. And you've got to do that every game.

Who's going to oppose this change the most? Your Top Laner. You're leaving them in a 2v1, and they just know they're going to get pushed under tower and dove over and over again, and you can't get much gold or experience when you're dead. Your other teammates are skeptical too, since you're basically avoiding the enemy all game. You get into game and you want them to come help you get started killing monsters?

I have no doubt that if we were in a 2-1-2 meta your system would pick up people trying to go 1-1-1-2 as a ban worthy offence over ~200 games. They'd be jumped straight to 2-week ban and threatened with a permaban. You've said that won't happen, but we've got two instances of a support person threatening players coming up with new strategy with permabans now.

You say the key is communicating "with" teammates in champion select, but no one is figuring out how to do that consistently? Show us an example. Video record a lobby in this situation where the Top laner is adamant about sticking with 2-1-2, and you're equally adamant about 1-1-2-1, and show you communicating "with" that Top even if they are communicating "at" you. Show us what it would take to play your strategy without being banned.

38 Comments

Åeolus3 votes

This is a horrible analogy. No one would go 2 top because it's completely disadvantageous to. Having a jungler gives your team more exp and gold. Why would you not utilize jungle camps. The people in your hypothetic scenario would be bronze 5 idiots.

Myrddin2 votes

You don't remember when targons first came out do you

Åeolus1 votes

The team with targons would have an item disadvantage (because they had to build it in the first place). And would still be behind the combined gold of the solo top laner and jungler, it'd only be mitigated a bit. The meta that we have now is prevalent for logical reasons, it isn't just random.

Myrddin1 votes

a simple yes would have sufficed

when it first came out you had 4 targons on a team and no jungler

Maximum Morde2 votes

Not true if you push a weebsuo or riven shit in so hard the rage tilt their entire team.

It's surprisingly easy to do so.

Åeolus1 votes

Then ranged top laners would become meta and the enemy team with two top laners would be severely behind. The team with one top laner would also have their jg able to access to all jungle camps. Go look at lcs matches. Lane swaps happen all the time where top laners have to lane against an adc and supp and they still have relatively good cs. Two top doesn't shut down all top laners, only few.

DrCyanide1 votes

Having a jungler gives your team more exp and gold.

Having your Support counter jungle takes gold and experience away from the enemy team, along with giving solo experience to the ADC and providing deeper ward coverage to see the enemy jungler. Those are a lot of advantages, are the rest of us Bronze 5 for not taking them?

You seem to be forgetting that in our real world situation the player in question is doing this strategy in Diamond 3 and is winning with it more often than they're losing with it.

Åeolus1 votes

? I am not talking about a roaming support. I said you tried to make an analogy by saying, "What if there were two top laners?". I explained why having two people top is bad. I don't disagree with a counter jungling nunu supp. Having 2-1-2 is stupid.

DrCyanide1 votes

The 2-1-2 transitioning to 1-1-1-2 is the closest comparison most people have any experience with, which is why I reference it. There are some differences, but I think it's a good jumping off point for thinking about the situation.

LostFr0st2 votes

The key isn't to communicate 'with them in champ select' it's to communicate 'with them in-game' as well. The Singed wasn't doing that (he does not) and the Nunu doesn't do that (I don't know if he'll start).

Ahristocats4 votes

What exactly do you want them to say? you know that most of my games are 5 people not talking at all? not a single words?

you want them to answer to questions? like IRL i'm punished if you ask my why i play "this and this and this" and i don't want to argue because it's pointless?

i'm not saying you're wrong, i'm just asking a question i want to be enlighted, what do you want them to do?

LostFr0st2 votes

If the person is going that far off meta your team needs to know WTF is the plan. It's not like he doesn't know what the questions will be. The Diamond players in his game have honed themselves to the meta, if he doesn't get them on board he'll basically have low-plat level help in his roaming Nunu players meta on his team. He needs to pretend he cares, basically. Which his stream Faq doesn't reflect.

Ahristocats4 votes

{quoted}

If the person is going that far off meta your team needs to know WTF is the plan.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENS WTF WHY DO YOU NEED TO TELL YOUR TEAM YOUR PLAN WHEN YOU DON'T TALK SHIT IF YOU JUST PLAY THE META?

WHY DO YOU NEED TO SAY YOU'RE PLAYING ADC DARIUS WHEN YOU DON'T NEED TO SAY YOU'RE PLAYING ADC JHIN?

LostFr0st2 votes

You don't need to say the plan for adc Darius either mostly. It's when it goes so far off meta that it doesn't proc the spidey-sense from the long-time players on what to do next.

If you ace them in low elo, half the team stays mid to 'end the game' and half the team walks to Baron and dies when they respawn since it took too long. In your elo someone pings and you either all end, all take mid inhib and reset to prep Baron if there's not enough time, or all walk to Baron.

Ahristocats2 votes

{quoted}

You don't need to say the plan for adc Darius either mostly.

oh i do

https://i.gyazo.com/1d3b58edeb7fc74922b2419d0ebb2eb8.png

according to board when i told them that people were flaming me for picking adc darius they all said "you have to tell them you're doing it"

LostFr0st1 votes

ROFL. That's legit funny. :') I stand corrected lol.

What I meant is that once you get in-game your team kinda knows already how to play with and around it.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

What I meant is that once you get in-game your team kinda knows already how to play with and around it.

This is something FINALLY i can get behind , you make a point there but you can end up reported and banned because you were reported

DrCyanide2 votes

What do you need to communicate in game? "On my way", "enemy missing", and "danger" aren't enough?

"I'm counter jungling them" should be as self explanatory as "I'm split pushing". I don't think anyone expects more info than that.

LostFr0st1 votes

Um, no. It isn't. If your team drafts 2 weak solo lanes to go with that strategy it actually means "I'm gonna give fb to their jungle and let mid/top/bot collapse on me.

DrCyanide1 votes

If your team drafts 2 weak solo lanes to go with that strategy...

Wouldn't that be an example of communicating with them in Champion Select? You said the key is communicating with them in Game, so give an example of what you would want Nunu to say/ping in Game.

LostFr0st1 votes

Yeah, that's it though. When he leaves champ select and is presented with the case where he has an Azir OTP mid and a let's say FP Malphite top that got counterpicked and a safe Ezreal or Cait lane bot.

Should he actually go in alone? No, he shouldn't. In that case he needs to coordinate with his real jg and bring them with him. If they say no then he has to set up something else. Right now it seems like he just goes in anyways.

DrCyanide1 votes

Should he actually go in alone? No, he shouldn't. In that case he needs to coordinate with his real jg and bring them with him. If they say no then he has to set up something else. Right now it seems like he just goes in anyways.

That may be a poor judgement call, but it's specifically mentioned as not a reportable offense.

According to the support website, you can't report him for making poor judgement calls, having a tactically disagreeing with you, nor for not sticking to the meta game. If you can't be reported for that, how can you be banned for that?

Furthermore, "Players are never banned for not communicating through chat in-game." Any communication that you're saying he needs to do should be able to be done via smart pings.

I am just not seeing how this verdict holds up with what we've been told the rules of League are. The only thing that makes sense is that it's based around communication in Champion Select, which is why I'm asking for an example from there.

LostFr0st1 votes

It's not just a 'poor judgement call' in his case though. It's a reality he knows will pop up and it's a chance to prove his meta-breaking strategy to the team. For morale's sake.

I'm saying that as he's a OTP Nunu counterjungle w/e he knows that the situation will arise and he also knows that he needs to earn the backing of his team (even if he doesn't want to) in order to not make the game so uncomfortable for them.

That way they know how to play with him and they won't report him, so therefore no ban.

He needs to have a plan. And he needs to let them know what it is. Not just "trust me;" that's not good enough. Ask anyone who has give away their primary in champ select. "Trust me" isn't good enough.

DrCyanide1 votes

[...] he needs to earn the backing of his team (even if he doesn't want to) in order to not make the game so uncomfortable for them.

That way they know how to play with him and they won't report him, so therefore no ban.

What can they even reporting him for? "His pick and strategy made me uncomfortable" isn't exactly a report option.

It's certainly helpful to have your teammates be on-board and confident with your strategy, sure, but how much more comfortable can you make them beyond explaining the logic of it? That's what the copy/paste segment in champion select is for, to try and win over the team. Do you need to waste time typing in game to explain every action in order to win over teammates as well? Is that really what it takes to not be reported/banned?

They're going to be doubtful of your pick/strategy until they see it work. Matchmaking demands that about 50% of your games will be losses, and even if he was great at counter jungling in the early game and he did everything right, if the game ends in a loss the skeptics will look at the end of the game and say "we would have won this teamfight if he'd been Thresh instead, stupid troll".

All of this is why I think we need an example to follow here. What's being asked of these counter jungle supports in terms of communication goes so far beyond what most of us are expected to do in our games. It should hardly be surprising that they're missing some mark when they've got nothing to compare it to.

We need them to develop innovative ways to break the meta and innovative ways to communicate with teammates in order to not get banned? Really?

If Riot just gives them a template to work off of they can point to that the next time it comes up (and it will come up again) and say "This is what your communication in game should look like." That way there's a precedent for what the communication should look like, players can emulate it, and support personnel can look to see if the player is trying to follow that. Until that's made these bans for not communicating enough are very flimsy and open to interpretation.

LostFr0st1 votes

He was reported by 50% of his teammates in his winning games too. That speaks for itself.

It's important to not be oblivious to his team being humans that want to be a part of their own destiny in the game. Trust them with some tasks so that they can help him win at least, and so that they feel like part of the team.

It's not s4 with the feral flare stack win condition anymore. (not implying you said that) He's in an elo range where "just don't feed trust me I'm pro we can win this" isn't good enough for the team to want to spend multiple games in that scenario. He does re-encounter teammates, he can build a rapport with them if he wants.

He even had the Singed case and he still didn't look into it or check up with support to see if he'd be affected in the future. (which surprised me)

Even if from now on he just pretends to care it's better than the present attitude.

I'm pretty sure they're working on a template at least for the support staff from what it looked like in the Riot post.

DrCyanide1 votes

{quoted}

He was reported by 50% of his teammates in his winning games too. That speaks for itself.

Where in the world are you getting that data?

The official statement was that he was reported in "nearly 50% of their games were reported by teammates as frustrating and unfun. Keep in mind, this isn’t just teammates in losing games, this is teammates across all of his games; victories included."

  1. Being reported in 50% of games is not the same as being reported by 50% of teammates
  2. No data is provided for what percentage of wins he was reported in
  3. No data is provided for what percentage of those teammates reporting were ADC vs other roles

It's not a stretch to think that some ADC's would have such a miserable experience that they would reported him even if he carried the game. Basically, it tells us nothing on it's own.

It's important to not be oblivious to his team being humans that want to be a part of their own destiny in the game. Trust them with some tasks so that they can help him win at least, and so that they feel like part of the team.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure I get what you mean by this as it relates to this scenario. As best I can tell the tasks assigned to everyone is the same as in any other League match. The difference is that you're playing with an enemy Jungler that's behind where he otherwise would be (and with a Support who's good at securing Baron/Dragon instead of providing much utility in a team fight).

Even if from now on he just pretends to care it's better than the present attitude.

I'll agree with that. Moral can be a very important factor in games, regardless of if you're playing meta or not.

I'm pretty sure they're working on a template at least for the support staff from what it looked like in the Riot post.

Having a template for Support Staff is certainly a step in the right direction. I feel like there also needs to be a template presented to players too.

Anyone who regularly visits the PB&M board knows the 4 tier punishment system, and when someone stumbles in saying "Why did I get a 2 week ban for this?" they can help the person see what they did wrong. We're lacking an equivalent policy with these meta breaking strategies. We've got consistent statements by Riot about "communicate 'with' teammates not 'at' them", but we don't really have a clear idea of what that means or how you'd put it in practice.

LostFr0st2 votes

{quoted}

Where in the world are you getting that data?

The official statement was that he was reported in "nearly 50% of their games were reported by teammates as frustrating and unfun. Keep in mind, this isn’t just teammates in losing games, this is teammates across all of his games; victories included."

Yup, I re-read it and you're correct. I don't think the case would have much merit when weighted if it's only the ADs reporting him. That would be dumb. I don't think they'd do that.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure I get what you mean by this as it relates to this scenario. As best I can tell the tasks assigned to everyone is the same as in any other League match. The difference is that you're playing with an enemy Jungler that's behind where he otherwise would be (and with a Support who's good at securing Baron/Dragon instead of providing much utility in a team fight).

Nope, you're playing with an enemy jg that's behind, and an AD that's behind in gold and up marginally in exp if they know how to lane 1v2 and not die (if the enemy team doesn't freeze the lane and zone them away from the wave; which they will do in diamond).

If they die even once then they're neutral in exp, and if the enemy jg or mid goes bot then it's a 1v3 or 1v4 and again they die. Basically "free dives botlane."

Your team also auto-loses first tower, loses pressure bot-side and allows their bot to rotate mid early to bother his mid if the Nunu isn't ahead by a large margin. (which he must be if he has a 53%wr.)

I'll agree with that. Moral can be a very important factor in games, regardless of if you're playing meta or not.

Having a template for Support Staff is certainly a step in the right direction. I feel like there also needs to be a template presented to players too.

Anyone who regularly visits the PB&M board knows the 4 tier punishment system, and when someone stumbles in saying "Why did I get a 2 week ban for this?" they can help the person see what they did wrong. We're lacking an equivalent policy with these meta breaking strategies. We've got consistent statements by Riot about "communicate 'with' teammates not 'at' them", but we don't really have a clear idea of what that means or how you'd put it in practice.

I'd be quite happy if we got one of those too^^

SwainLaneWinGame1 votes

You don't have to use in game chat at all. /mute all is a thing and not punishable.

LostFr0st1 votes

You're correct, but in the case of getting a team on board with a new plan it's very hard to win with everyone muted, and will further frustrate the team. /mute all assumes that there is no communication needed to work together towards the goal. This case has changed the board-game rules so he needs to chat.

SwainLaneWinGame1 votes

No, false, incorrect. Let me re-iterate it again: you do not have to use ingame chat at all, ever, no matter if you are off-meta or otherwise.

Linna Excel2 votes

It's kind of hard to communicate with my teammates in game. I'm not a fast typer and unlike OVERWATCH we don't have ingame voice chat by default.

LostFr0st1 votes

I know the feels; I too wish I didn't have to type everything. And it's impossible to control the champ and type at the same time...QQ

Linna Excel2 votes

I think the answer, sadly, is yes.

My biggest beef with all this is I'm not the fastest of typers and I don't know how people are able to pay attention to the game while constantly screaming at each other via the keyboard. I rarely say more than "GJ" or "dragon?" in game because it takes too long and takes away from my focus on things like the map.

acehole761 votes

my advice just do what I do I've had tons of account perma banned I don't care it doesn't bother me IP addresses I have plenty accounts I have plenty.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

People need to realize that riot isn't saying you can't do this. The players are reporting these players for this because the players don't want him in their games and riot takes action based on that.

DrCyanide5 votes

If I don't want Yasuo's/Riven's/Vayne's in my game, should I report them so Riot will ban them for me?

On the exact same page where it says you can't be banned for not playing Meta it says that you can't be banned for having a tactical disagreement with your team. Yet here we are with a player banned over a tactical disagreement with the team.

Riot's trying to say it's an issue with communication, which is why I'm asking for an example of proper communication.

Maximum Morde1 votes

Bookmarking. Don't know how I missed that before, but it's clearly spelled out in black and white.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stabby Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vpN35gg9,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-28T16:56:02.214+0000)

People need to realize that riot isn't saying you can't do this. The players are reporting these players for this because the players don't want him in their games and riot takes action based on that.

That is itself a problem. One of my friends was about to be on the dignitas smite team when a four man premade reported him for playing an off-meta jungler and convinced the enemy team to report the off meta over three games. His account was banned and he was made ineligible to join the team for the exact reasoning you just described. Its not okay that meta sheep can hold players hostage and punish players who deviate from the macro-meta with debilitating bans.

Thats the whole crux of the "singed/nunu ban" fiasco; Riot is allowing the meta sheep to hold players hostage and unjustifiably punish outlier meta deviants. I think a lot of people just cant wrap their heads around a different "Macro-meta" and hyper focus on the "Micro-meta"; entirely different roles and role allocations and "same roles different champions to fill them".

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