AD Malz is a more compelling Summoner champ than Yorick

Rebonack·Aug 28, 2015·105 votes·4,670 views

Yorick feels more like an obnoxious AD caster thing that happens to conjure critters with his spells. None of the spells do a particularly good job of supporting said minions, nor are they the bulk of his damage.

Most of AD Malz' damage comes from his crabs. His spells are great for supporting them. Q silences foes so they can't escape a good snippin'. E tells the crabs who to snip. W provides zone control. And of course R holds a target down for an epic snippin'.

It seems to me Riot should embrace AD Malz (the most unique ADC in the game) and give him some support so he can work on maps other than Dominion. Make his auto-attacks provide half a charge (a third, maybe?) and hard-cap Malz at two crabs. Because if you play your cards right, you can get three crabs out at a time.

Ever see what happens to someone with three crabs snippin' at them?

It ain't pretty.

72 Comments

Remlap1223Aug 28, 201529 votes

I giggled every time you wrote snippin. I'm a child, I know. I agree OP, thanks for the laughs as well.

sreggadAug 28, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I giggled every time you wrote snippin. I'm a child, I know. I agree OP, thanks for the laughs as well.

you and me both brother. I don't know why but snippin' just made the whole thing sound so much better.

MrWasjigAug 28, 201519 votes

http://i.imgur.com/gc3uk.png

Everytime time the word "snip" or "snipping" was uttered xD

SSJTribeAug 28, 20154 votes

No! Citizen Snips!

ShaftyMegeeAug 28, 201518 votes

Wait... people still play dominion?

ManwalrusAug 28, 20152 votes

Bots play dominion, that's about it.

RebonackAug 28, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Wait... people still play dominion?

There are enough high-MMR Dominion players left that I have queue times of less than five minutes at reasonable hours. Longest I've ever waited was 45 minutes. That was pretty awful.

Tails DollAug 28, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Wait... people still play dominion?

Wait... What is dominion?

RebonackAug 28, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tails Doll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voUNnNn5,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2015-08-28T21:43:31.549+0000)

Wait... What is dominion?

The empire that used to rule the Delta Quadrant in Star Trek.

Trash ADC BtwAug 30, 20151 votes

*Gamma Quadrant

ChaosThiefAug 28, 20156 votes

NO. DO NOT TOUCH HOW MANY CRABS HE WILL HAVE. I WANT AN ARMY AT MY FEET.

RebonackAug 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

NO. DO NOT TOUCH HOW MANY CRABS HE WILL HAVE. I WANT AN ARMY AT MY FEET.

Right now Malz can maintain three crabs out at once without using his Ult. You can get three with the ult, but you have to do it right otherwise you're just sitting on a few Innate stacks and no extra crab.

Thing is, if you Ult someone and have three crabs snippin' at them, they evaporate.

Evaporate.

It really doesn't matter how much armor they have (because you build Whisper, Cleaver, and Yomama's Ghostblade, right?), they will pretty much without fail die within the duration of the Ult.

While hilarious for you, that's bad for them.

Two crabs is plenty. Riot could just make it so triggering the Innate when Malz already has two crabs out full-heals them and extends their duration by 7 seconds. Being able to keep two frenzied crabs active at all times barring them getting molested by AoE would easily make up for the inability to summon a third when you use your Ult.

ChaosThiefAug 29, 20151 votes

But... but urf malzahar...

RebonackAug 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But... but urf malzahar...

I'm not sure if balancing around Urf is wise.

ChaosThiefAug 29, 20151 votes

It really isn't. Though in a normal game, it is rare if not impossible to have 3 voidlings at once.

DorkunedAurasAug 30, 20151 votes

URF malz with the 87 crabs walking up to towers and making them just disappear...

RebonackAug 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

URF malz with the 87 crabs walking up to towers and making them just disappear...

Way too many crabs, IMO

Z46Aug 29, 20151 votes

Ghostblade isn't necessary on AD Malzahar, and Cleaver is situational (for example, if someone's stacking armor, or if your team is AD-heavy). In general, Last Whisper is the only armor penetration item you need. If you're jungling AD Malz, Warrior enchantment is a great addition. CDR can also be attained through other means.

The thing about maintaining his anklebiter army is that it's a massive waste of mana. Malzahar has some of the highest overall mana costs in the game.

Having three consistently for fights is a best case scenario due to the mana costs in making it happen both early and late. In the vast majority of AD Malz play, you'll only have one or two.

Additionally, bot-ADC Malzahar (or Malzahar anywhere outside mid lane) is pretty niche. You'd have to be good with working around Malzahar's weaknesses (immobility, and his ult suppressing both him and his target, among other things) to pull it off in a duo lane.

In the jungle, though, it's a lot more reliable. AD Malzahar shreds objectives so quickly and safely Udyr needs a change of panties. Consider looking up Aqua Dragon 33 to see how it works out, and maybe check out his guide to try it out yourself. He's a jungle AD Malzahar main, and it got him to Masters last season. He's infamous in Diamond and up for getting dragons on spawn.

Yes, AD Malzahar can be insanely strong, meaning it doesn't need buffs, but it also doesn't need nerfs due to the extreme niche and associated skill floor from which AP Malzahar (you know, his builds that have the most frequent and highest of his win rates) doesn't suffer.

magic poleAug 28, 20155 votes

ad jung malzzz. press E on your way past a camp to farm it. dude literally clears his side of jungle in the time it takes him to walk through it.

item 3070 item 3707 item 3158 item 3035

Lord DusteonAug 28, 20153 votes

They are Voidlings afasfjgshafjsgafhasgfahsfghasfsf

ANYWAY. Personally fine with AD Malzahar as is: he's a fun off build that works and does not effect the main build really. Adding charges on autoattacks though A) helps AP early and draws away from the "spell spamming summoner" AD Malzahar is, and B) muddies his goals with Voidlings, as normally he wants 2-3 out and then R someone, and since Voidlings scale only on AD and armor penetration he does not want AS or such. He just wants enough mana and cdr to spam.

5000000000000000Aug 28, 20152 votes

I just tried a few games as AD jungle Malzahar, and runeglaive is really good on him for mana sustain and clear speed.

It was a bot match, but since I was mostly power farming anyway, so I think it's fair to say that runeglaive might be better than warrior.

RebonackAug 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I just tried a few games as AD jungle Malzahar, and runeglaive is really good on him for mana sustain and clear speed.

It was a bot match, but since I was mostly power farming anyway, so I think it's fair to say that runeglaive might be better than warrior.

You can cover mana regen with runes, honestly. Malz doesn't particularly need that extra armor for his first clear since Voidlings should be tanking all (or at least most) of the damage to begin with.

Praetor DonAug 28, 20152 votes

Black Cleaver Rework made his build path far more awkward.

DemacryAug 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Praetor Don,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voUNnNn5,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-08-28T13:33:39.894+0000)

Black Cleaver Rework made his build path far more awkward.

Just gave it a go and got ruined by a Gnar for it. I actually really like the BC route rework but I hadn't played Malz in a long while so I didn't realize how bad it would hurt him.

KoKobotoAug 28, 20152 votes

Lol "snippin" I think a buff to AD Malzahar with these changes:

health/armor/magic resist on Voidlings scale a bit b
increase leash range
let voidlings stay even after death
give them more movement speed perhaps decrease effectiveness early early game so that AP Malzahar wouldnt just freely benefit off the changes

BastionKrossAug 28, 20152 votes

While I agree that Yorick's minions should feel more like AD Malz (as in they actually do something and scale really well) AD Malz and Yorick are two different types of minion masters.

Malz summons them up and supports them from the backline with his spells. Malz provides the utility, the minions provide the damage. Yorick summons up his minions and says "follow me, boys!" as he leads them into battle. Yorick tanks for them and does more damage than they do, while they provide him with utility like slows and healing. The opposite of the Malz situation.

Unfortunately, Yorick's minions don't last long enough to really be a factor in a lot of situations, and their numbers are extremely laughable. The slow from the W minion is noticeable, but not all that much of a threat. The heal from the E minion is nice, but he probably won't get many autos off in his short lifespan anyway. The major utility from those two spells actually comes from the effect they have when you land them, not from the minions they conjure. The minions are basically the secondary effect, but they should be the primary reason for using the ability. The Q minion provides no utility at all (unless you count the auto attack reset the ability gives you) in return for dealing slightly more damage than it's brethren. The greatest bonus Yorick gets from his ghouls is they stack his passive. That absolutely should not be the way a minion master functions.

What they should probably do is have Q, W, and E only summon a ghoul when cast, and put that power into the ghouls themselves. Have the W ghoul's slow start stacking up to greater effect the longer someone is in his aura. Have E heal more HP per auto, but have only 50% effectiveness on non-champions to prevent the laning phase from being a snoozefest. Have the Q minion scale better with Yorick in some way, and shred armor when it hits someone like it has a item 3071 . Also, make those ghouls last long enough to do their jobs instead of auto attacking twice and then timing out.

Lil SoybeanAug 28, 20152 votes

This has probably been mentioned already, but there's a AD Jungle Malzahar main who's reached Masters already. He streams.

www.twitch.tv/aquadragon33

Pretty good stuff. He's diamond right now, I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVnPVUz4dbs

SaiannaAug 29, 20151 votes

44 minutes well spent :)

But i gotta say he made lots of mistakes.. And then his damage was pretty mediocre. Only once has he 1v1 won..

Lil SoybeanAug 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

44 minutes well spent :)

But i gotta say he made lots of mistakes.. And then his damage was pretty mediocre. Only once has he 1v1 won..

He has other matches recorded on that channel as well. They might demonstrate its power better.

5000000000000000Aug 28, 20151 votes

Is item 3042 good on AD Malzahar? As in, do his voidlings proc the passive?

YumaS2AstralAug 28, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Is good on AD Malzahar? As in, do his voidlings proc the passive?

is pretty core since AD Malzahar wastes ridiculous amounts of mana

RebonackAug 28, 201511 votes

{quoted}

Is good on AD Malzahar? As in, do his voidlings proc the passive?

Voidlings don't proc the passive.

Malz does need a ton of mana, though. And Mura is one of the most cost-effective sources of raw AD in the game.

ahferroin7Aug 28, 20151 votes

Holy crap, someone other than me who realizes this. I'm so tired of getting shouted at for building it on anyone other than Urgot (It's terrifying on kassadin or singed when you also have item 3040 , and very useful for an AD caster build on Ezreal).

Auz the RipperAug 28, 20153 votes

It's especially funny on kass because his W proccs it twice (once as a on-hit effect and once as a spell effect)

Crowe StalkerAug 28, 20151 votes

Either item 3043 or item 3508 to solve his mana issues. Muramana helps more early on and at end-game lets you spam a ton but Essence Reaver gives you CDR and enhances your autos by rewarding you for it with mana to attack your enemies. If you do get Essence Reaver though, you will need item 2004 unless you decided that item 2041 would be a better investment early on (Hint: it is totally a worthwhile investment if you can get it without delaying your build too much)

VerandureAug 28, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Either or to solve his mana issues. Muramana helps more early on and at end-game lets you spam a ton but Essence Reaver gives you CDR and enhances your autos by rewarding you for it with mana to attack your enemies. If you do get Essence Reaver though, you will need unless you decided that would be a better investment early on (Hint: it is totally a worthwhile investment if you can get it without delaying your build too much)

Essence Reaver sucks on AD Malz, don't build it. You're not auto attacking enough to make it useful.

SociopathFriendAug 28, 20151 votes

But I like my AP Malz... I don't want them to make AD Malz more of a thing because I enjoy my master of "Don't walk there" counterplay.

RebonackAug 28, 20155 votes

{quoted}

But I like my AP Malz... I don't want them to make AD Malz more of a thing because I enjoy my master of "Don't walk there" counterplay.

This suggestion really wouldn't have much of an impact on AP Malz, aide from giving him slightly easier access to his (much weaker) Voidlings.

AD Malz and AP Malz are both radically different. Like AP Kog, this is an instance where Riot should support both builds instead of trying to nerf one out of existence.

Noam BraumskyAug 29, 20151 votes

They both have their strengths. Arguably %hp damage scaling off ap is probably one of the best things ap Malz has to offer.

RebonackAug 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They both have their strengths. Arguably %hp damage scaling off ap is probably one of the best things ap Malz has to offer.

Fun fact, AP Malz' pool used to scale twice as hard with AP as it does now.

I think Annie is the only APC from the old days to actually have her total ratio increased over time. Maaaaaaybe Fiddles, too. I can't recall now.

Noam BraumskyAug 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fun fact, AP Malz' pool used to scale twice as hard with AP as it does now.

I think Annie is the only APC from the old days to actually have her total ratio increased over time. Maaaaaaybe Fiddles, too. I can't recall now.

Whoa. I mean, playing as a tank against a malzahar is a nightmare now. I don't want to imagine what it used to be like.

GigahappytownAug 29, 20151 votes

Ad malzahar is ironically objectively better than ap malzahar better duelist better peeler higher dps(although its harder to hit without cc and if your target is far away there is a delay) god tier tower taker best dragon/baron taker only rivaled by nunu and his stealing power

lAmSovereignAug 29, 20151 votes

I feel AD malzy loses his effectiveness late game in team fights. But 1v1... just no. Splitting god at that point.

SeekêrAug 29, 20151 votes

Most of AD Malz' damage comes from his crabs. His spells are great for supporting them. Q silences foes so they can't escape a good snippin'. E tells the crabs who to snip. W provides zone control. And of course R holds a target down for an epic snippin'.

The use of snippin' in this made me laugh way too hard

RebonackAug 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Orphic Greed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voUNnNn5,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2015-08-29T07:14:08.931+0000)

The use of snippin' in this made me laugh way too hard

Even serious topics should be fun.

RebonackAug 29, 20151 votes

Ghostblade isn't necessary on AD Malzahar, and Cleaver is situational (for example, if someone's stacking armor, or if your team is AD-heavy).

I don't play Summoner's Rift =D

Over in Dominion you want to shoot for straight maximization of your damage with the goal of evaporating targets within the span of Malz' Ult. To that end, the most effective means of enhancing his damage is anything that provides both AD and armor penetration since that's the only way to get double-scaling for them.

Having three out at all times is impossible. You can only pull it off by using your Ult. Having two out at all times isn't particularly difficult once you have your CDR. The suggestion I made would prevent the three stack from happening (it's insane, seriously) while also making it a bit less mana intensive to keep at least one Voidling in the fight at all times.

It's a nerf to his maximum potential damage and a buff to his reliability. A lateral change, if you will. It would allow him to run the ADC role a bit more reliably.

NeoScoutAug 30, 20151 votes

I agree

NyáAug 30, 20151 votes

Or riot could maybe finally rework me please? Yorick

AD Malz is fun and all but I wanna be fun too item 3070

RebonackAug 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Or riot could maybe finally rework me please?

AD Malz is fun and all but I wanna be fun too

It's a fiddly thing.

As another poster pointed out, Malz is the minion master who supports his minions. They do most of the damage and his spells are for utility.

Yorick, on the other hand, is the total opposite. He and his spells do most of the damage and his minions are basically just a side-effect that make his Innate stronger.

When Yorick's rework does come around, would you prefer he stay the same (minions support him) or for him to be more like Malz (he supports minions.)?