I would rather see no Crit on Trinity rather than no AP

Rebonack·Oct 30, 2015·245 votes·7,745 views

Let me preface this by saying that I'm a Koggy main so no one thinks Fighter-Bias is coming into the picture.

There are a ton of amazing crit options now. I feel like bumping Trinity's crit up is just going to hurt Fighters at the expense of giving ADCs another crit option that most of them won't be interested in. So how about instead of messing up Sheen, we replace the Zeal in Trinity with either Stinger or Recurve Bow instead? Stinger would be the CDR option and Recurve could add some OnHit damage into the mix.

If ADCs really need an AD/IAS/Crit/CDR option, why not just create a new item that builds out of Zeal, Dirk, and Wicked Hatchet instead of messing up Trinity Force?

153 Comments

Malicious MetalOct 30, 201549 votes

This is actually a very cool idea! Adding stinger to the mix would allow riot to replace the crit with cdr, a stat many bruiser would actually like to build!

They tested rechrve bow but apparently it sucked, stinger on the other hand would be awesome. Not to mention the abundance of cdr/crit items currently on the pbe.

Let us fighters have our items! #tonsofdamage

LankPantsOct 31, 20153 votes

Adding stinger to the mix would allow riot to replace the crit with cdr, a stat many bruiser would actually like to build!

It's already got 10% from Sheen, adding Stinger would mean a 20% CDR Tri, which might be overwhelming, It would also empathise the AS on the item a little too much IMO. Any item building from Stinger has to have at least 50% AS.

Personally the recipe I'd like to see is item 3044 , item 3057 , item 3113 , item 1042 . That way you get HP, AD, Mana, CDR, MS, AP and AS without any crit.

GelsominoKillerOct 31, 20153 votes

I fully support the sheen + stinger + phage build. It simply makes too much sense to not be this way. Crit on trinity always felt out of place to me. Focusing on the most awkard part of the item only because it favors ADCs is plain retarded. I get they really wanted to fully fullfill their ezreal perfect build fetish, but they're hurting fighter itemization a lot.

How OP said, instead of ruining a core item to a number of champions, ADCs could get a new, unique item giving them what they want. Given the fact that riot is in a (questionable) new item galore in this preseason, this is very feasible.

ZarkkastOct 30, 201525 votes

Riot basically made the new Trinity thinking "EZREAL EZREAL EZREAL".

RebonackOct 30, 201517 votes

{quoted}

Riot basically made the new Trinity thinking "EZREAL EZREAL EZREAL".

Well, yes, but I didn't want to say that >_>

I don't think it's any coincidence that Reaver + Trinity gives exactly 40% CDR.

MealReadytoEatOct 30, 20154 votes

Its not for Ez, its for Lucian Ez doesn't auto that much.

Drunken MuttOct 30, 20153 votes

Ez's q is his auto and its most of his damage + his autos.

MealReadytoEatOct 30, 20153 votes

But the Q can't crit. Which is why I'm saying these changes are great for Lucian, but not Ez, although he will like the CDR.

BonipherusOct 30, 20159 votes

This. Basically build trinity on him now every game and never again see him with IBG since iceborn gauntlet now will take you over the cdr cap and it's slow field will be tiny since ez wont be buying any more armor. Also the crit and reaver's new cdr crit scaling

ahferroin7Oct 30, 20152 votes

Ironically, even with the AP it's a decent item on him.

maikokkOct 30, 20155 votes

how is that ironic? he has decent AP ratios and base AD, perfect sheen synergy, attack speed scaling, and a desire for phage.

it was never counter-intuitive to build triforce on ez

Only Play DariusOct 30, 201525 votes

Agreed. Part of the reason Trinity is such a versatile item is the AP it provides, removing the AP and increasing the crit just gimps the item in favor of champions who will be critting more often.

Of course Yasuo will love the new Tri-Force.

MealReadytoEatOct 30, 20153 votes

I'm not sure he will. TF is weaker overall, and he caps out on crit with SS and IE now.

OyddAWqJ5rOct 31, 20152 votes

Noone runs crit runes on Yasuo anymore, so generally he doesn't cap out on the 80% crit they provide.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20155 votes

SS provides 30% crit on PBE.

Slamurai JackOct 30, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8dcE3fu9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-30T15:54:45.288+0000)

Agreed. Part of the reason Trinity is such a versatile item is the AP it provides, removing the AP and increasing the crit just gimps the item in favor of champions who will be critting more often.

Of course will love the new Tri-Force.

Yasuo's won't even be building it anymore assuming that neither he nor the items get nerfed. item 3087 item 3031 gives 100% crit now, so Triforce Yasuo can go back in the garbage where it belongs.

AezanthyaOct 30, 201513 votes

I just don't get why they REMOVED the ap from SHEEN and not just from trinity.

It's just so ugh... dumb. They just destroyed most of the champs' early with this stupid change.

KaisadiIIaOct 30, 20155 votes

I have the feel they give up the AP on Sheen just to justify removing the AP from Trinity. Probably they don't want to change its recipee since it fits strongly the item's thematic.

maikokkOct 30, 20153 votes

sheen having CDR instead of AP is an overall damage increase on anyone that sheen is good on.

ZarkkastOct 30, 20151 votes

Fizz, Sona, AP Ezreal...

maikokkOct 30, 20151 votes

yes.

ofc fizz likes to burst in one go... but i dont see an issue with making him wait till LB

ZarkkastOct 30, 20151 votes

He is completely useless in the early game now until he can get 3200 gold.

Imagine if B.F. Sword was nerfed and gave like 10 AD while still costing as much and adcs had to wait just as much to get an Infinity Edge.

maikokkOct 30, 20153 votes

sorry m8, i mained fizz before picking up ekko and im not buying it. fizz will always be a threat at level 3 and level 6. if you dont appreciate the item 3057 passive damage being enough for a first B powerspike, then dont rush item 3100 . try item 1058 into item 3285 .

for me, im not the type to rely on trickster as a damage source, the max w method secures kills more reliably... and sheen plays right into that method... but if you need AP because you are the type to rely on tricker for damage then just build NLR.... so much more effective than sheen is on live.

FistOfSharkieshaOct 30, 20159 votes

Riot really needs to look at CDR items in general, they're extremely lopsided. The support role is oversaturated with CDR, you can easily go over the 40% cap. Since the removal of DFG midlaners' only CDR items are mana regen items, which leaves Karthus, Anivia, Orianna, some Swains and other mages who build tear of the goddess no means of CDR. They need to give CDR options that aren't tacked on to stats that are useless to so many champions who need that CDR.

Voluug13Oct 30, 20152 votes

Orianna needs Athene even when building Tear, tho. Its generally a must item on her considering how much she scales with cdr and mana regen.

FistOfSharkieshaOct 30, 20152 votes

That's exactly what I'm saying. Most mages need CDR but some don't really want Athene's or Morello. We need more CDR items not tied to mana regen.

Voluug13Oct 30, 20151 votes

But what reason should have an Orianna player to not buy Athenes except ~~special snoflake~~? Athene is literally Orianna's fundamental item. She generally buys tear because she can fill it very very fast compared to say, Lux.

FistOfSharkieshaOct 30, 20152 votes

She only needs one or the other. It depends on what you want her to be. A lategame champion with bulk and 100+ AP from the archangel's staff passive after stacking tear for 15 minutes, or a champ that rushes a chalice and spams from the start but never really scales as hard.

Just as you say what reason does she have to not buy Athene's, I say what reason is there to not have other CDR items besides Athene's and Morello's.

howstheweather13Nov 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot really needs to look at CDR items in general, they're extremely lopsided. The support role is oversaturated with CDR, you can easily go over the 40% cap. Since the removal of DFG midlaners' only CDR items are mana regen items, which leaves Karthus, Anivia, Orianna, some Swains and other mages who build tear of the goddess no means of CDR. They need to give CDR options that aren't tacked on to stats that are useless to so many champions who need that CDR.

(Insert SpongeBob face here)

ZeurthOct 30, 20156 votes

As a Nasus Main, I'd prefer to keep the crit.

Confron7a7ion7Oct 30, 20154 votes

As someone else who loves Nasus the crit wasn't really the reason you got it with it as the ONLY crit you had it was rare that you get use of it. The CDR though now lets you rearrange runes and masteries for other options so you can still do the standard build and still get full CDR. Even 45% now with the new changes.

Blue Moon WolfOct 30, 20155 votes

How is my Gnar supposed to obliterate champs who build armor with his 3rd hit passive when item 3078 doesn't give him AP? you can't look at that face and tell him he can't have AP :(

maikokkOct 30, 20155 votes

item 3115

CarnicoreOct 31, 20153 votes

CDR is a better stat on Gnar than AP anyway.

MasterVidallisOct 30, 20155 votes

Nah, trinity force having AP was awkward. This change is good. The game needed a proper auto attack reliant hybrid item, and by improving guinso's they're giving us that. The likes of Jax will just build guinso's instead of TF now.

Reaper SeijinOct 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Nah, trinity force having AP was awkward. This change is good. The game needed a proper auto attack reliant hybrid item, and by improving guinso's they're giving us that. The likes of Jax will just build guinso's instead of TF now.

So you're saying you think AP on TF was awkward while it's a huuuuuuge item for lets say a Corki, then going about saying improving guinsoo's rageblade is better for that purpose.

You don't even know how big Sheen is integrated into the item, for me, Sheen and Phage make the item, I never get it for the AS or whatever.

In my opinion ADC's and AD spellcasters are already heavily favoured, and their usage of crit, and crit's concept is so heavily overpowered and underpowered at the same damn time.

I can't honestly play certain Tanks, without getting shredded by an Caitlyn, or any other ADC with the standard builds that include IE and a decent amount of AS.

Some tanks do well, but the stat called Crit is absolutely ridiculous and should be replaced by something better and more reliable.

Honestly having a chance to crit and not critting when you need it the most, is horrifying.

I don't think Riot's on the right path right now, with all the changes they're making, it's going to get worse and worse.

Having AP on sheen is absolutely nice, it also favours one of my favourite niche picks, called AP MF.

AP MF has nice scaling in my opinion, and rushing sheen has two benefits on her, the passive is nice since I often have more than 120 AD, and over 300 AP at the end of the match.

Early on the sheen is so godlike on her, especially when poking an near dead minion with her Q and landing he second hit on the champion behind it, so satisfying.

I hate what they're doing to the game, they don't open up anything on the field, when all they do is constantly changing things for the worse, removing items like DFG, and changing TF is another grave mistake.

Just make an new item, instead of changing an already perfectly balanced good item.

Other's have said why they should not change this to another ADC and generic AD item, it's just wrong, and horrible.

I hate ADC's and AD champs by default now, since they're just way favored over anything else....

ShosukoOct 31, 20153 votes

First off - Crit can hit pretty hard from a fighter. TForce synergizes with spell weaving and high base damage, which is also a fighter thing.

Not a lot of fighters need this and ap...

I'd like to see them change the recipe on Lich Bane to not longer include this sheen though. Sheen is always an awkward item to build into lich bane as characters who could use lich bane never really want sheen.

Sheen it's self is just an odd item. Mana and AP + On hit proc of base damage? odd...

RedCycloneOct 30, 20152 votes

I don't really see why the new trinity will be unfavorable for Irelia/Vi/Heca ect

can anyone explain why?

WarlockLawOct 30, 20154 votes

Overall triforce is less tanky, less bursty more sustained damage oriented. Vi, Hec, Irelia and Jax liked it for the sheen burst it gave and the fact that it didn't leave them weak defensively. Now it's basically an exclusively adc item. Hell Yasuo won't be building it anymore

SzunrayOct 30, 20151 votes

Do any of those characters really miss the AP?

WarlockLawOct 31, 20153 votes

They miss it more than they want crit and for the most part they'd rather have ap over cdr as well

bvcderrttyyhjjjkOct 31, 20152 votes

Well, because Trinity force is an item that is probably not strictly for ADCs, and not very good an AP champs. Rito seems to be generally trying to remove hybrid things, so they want Triforce to be and item for AD fighters/SOME ADCs, and for the VAST majority of them it makes more sense to have crit rather than AP.

Cloud273Oct 31, 20152 votes

Riot isn't going to add a component that makes you lose stats when you combine it. I HIGHLY doubt the new trinity force is going to have 40 or 50% attack speed. Zeal is used in the recipe because it doesn't offer a ton of attack speed (stinger and recurve bow), but it doesn't offer too little either (dagger). In terms of sheer amounts of attack speed, zeal is just right.

CarnicoreOct 31, 20152 votes

How did such a stupid suggestion get upvoted? Crit chance is essential for Triforce to be a viable option on ADCs. Triforce Bruisers are losing AP in exchange for CDR, which is a net positive for them. I don't see the problem. This change made it a better item for Vi and Draven, and a worse option for Irelia and Yasuo. We should be happy about this change!

And trying to remove the crit chance from Triforce would have huge repercussions. We would have to remove the Zeal from the build path. Stinger is not a viable replacement because then Triforce would have 20% CDR which is just way too much.

CasterGilgameshOct 30, 20151 votes

Lol why is the ap needed on trinity.its such an awkward stat to have I never bought that item for that reason....

maikokkOct 30, 20155 votes

nobody buys trinity for any of its stats. its stats are intentionally generalist and bad. you buy it for the 3 passive effects.

that said, CDR is actually a stat people will appreciate when buying this item

TerntOct 30, 20157 votes

{quoted}

nobody buys trinity for any of its stats. its stats are intentionally generalist and bad. you buy it for the 3 passive effects.

that said, CDR is actually a stat people will appreciate when buying this item

8% movement on Hecarim is pretty solid. That's a stat.

MrMcfeely96Nov 1, 20151 votes

Meanwhile Evelynn is in the backround crying.