Azir's win rate is already very low and a lot champions got buffs.Impulse-response.Azir's win rate will drop under 40%.Azir is more vulnerable.You buff Riven (she has 49% win rate and he is high skill champion) you buff Vayne (she already got buff recent patch) but you think Azir is fine.
packïn shmeat3 votesAzir's win rate is bad because people who play him unless good are complete trash. vayne buff isnt that big of a deal since she just damages turret...
Treune812 votesAzir's win rate is bad because people who play him unless good are complete trash. vayne buff isnt that big of a deal since she just damages turret...
You don't say same arguments please.We know Azir mains win rate, we know Azir is trash tier we know some high skill champion buffs are unnecessary.Riven buffs are unnecessary.High skill cap, 49% win rate and buffs.I counted.11 champion buffs and 4 champion nerfs.Dou you know impulse-response?
Astôlfo3 votesUh no, Azir is trash. Even pro players can't do well with him. And non-pro Plat+ players with 125+ games can't even get a 45% winrate on him on average.
PermabannedGaren1 votesUh no, Azir is trash. Even pro players can't do well with him.
http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Azir
They seem to do okay with him.
Treune811 voteshttp://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Azir
They seem to do okay with him.
Last 6 games only 1 win after brutal nerfs.16.67% Azir is so weak but your Vayne is viable.
PermabannedGaren2 votesLast 6 games only 1 win after brutal nerfs.16.67% Azir is so weak but your Vayne is viable.
I don't play Vayne. I'm not a stupid ingrate who only defends champions I play like you do.
Though yeah I'd say Azir is overall pretty bad right now.
Good. Let's keep it that way until he's reworked. =)
Treune811 voteshttp://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Azir
They seem to do okay with him.
Also your stats 7 Azir games 1 win.I think you find new arguments.
ModWulf Helhammer3 votesAm I the only one feeling this is Atasuki (think I spelled that right) posting?
Same bad grammar, same insistance on buffing Azir
Treune811 votesAm I the only one feeling this is Atasuki (think I spelled that right) posting?
Same bad grammar, same insistance on buffing Azir
Maybe.Meanwhile what do you think about changes? Favouritism buffs and competitive nerfs I think.
APrinnyDood3 votesI'm looking through your post history and you said very clearly that you weren't Akatsuki. Now, you're admitting that you are. So, I'm not really sure your opinions are trustworthy now, given that you seem to be ok with lying.
It's a pity. I thought you were devoted to telling the truth. Now, I think you've just got your own agenda you're trying to push. Why bother lying otherwise?
Treune811 votesI'm looking through your post history and you said very clearly that you weren't Akatsuki. Now, you're admitting that you are. So, I'm not really sure your opinions are trustworthy now, given that you seem to be ok with lying.
It's a pity. I thought you were devoted to telling the truth. Now, I think you've just got your own agenda you're trying to push. Why bother lying otherwise?
What is meaning of maybe? He is my friend and we are housemate. I hope you understood.
APrinnyDood3 votes"Maybe" is different than "No, I'm not". It means you were trying to trick people, which means you were lying.
He is my friend and we are housemate.
So, I'm expected to just believe that even though you just tried to trick that guy, and even though you only started posting as soon as Akatsuki's account stopped posting (probably becuase of a ban), and even though this account is clearly new, and even though you write in exactly the same way as him (in both arguments used and in the exact same grammatical idiosyncrasies), you're really just roommates?
I don't believe you. Stop lying. If your arguments are good, you shouldn't have to lie to convince people.
Sightless662 votesyou buff Vayne (she already got buff recent patch)
It wasn't a buff. Her winrate actually dropped. The problem is that their bugfix to her crit system actually decreased her expected DPS in most scenarios. Given that she was already terrible before these changes, and that she has been bad for quite a long time, some haste on Riot's part is highly justified. This buff was incredibly justified.
We should be asking why Riot didn't see fit to deliver this buff earlier. It was clear that the last buffs would not be helpful, so we should strongly question why they bothered waiting on this one.
You buff Riven
Yeah, she's pretty mediocre. Her winrate is decent, but her very high playerbase experience distribution should lead us to expect that this is slightly inflated, and it isn't exactly amazing anyway. This is also an incredibly favorable meta for her, given the high presence of carry top laners and junglers in solo queue play, which suggests that her winrate could easily drop through the floor when the meta changes (and indeed, we've seen her winrate be much worse even earlier this season when tanks were stronger). Since she's not even strong in her ideal meta and when played primarily by Riven mains, there's room for a buff.
Azir's performance is completely and utterly separate from the performance of other champions. Every champion has a different situation. He is bad, and he does deserve changes, but that says literally nothing about Riven and Vayne. They deserved changes.
Treune811 votesIt wasn't a buff. Her winrate actually dropped. The problem is that their bugfix to her crit system actually decreased her expected DPS in most scenarios. Given that she was already terrible before these changes, and that she has been bad for quite a long time, some haste on Riot's part is highly justified. This buff was incredibly justified.
We should be asking why Riot didn't see fit to deliver this buff earlier. It was clear that the last buffs would not be helpful, so we should strongly question why they bothered waiting on this one.
Yeah, she's pretty mediocre. Her winrate is decent, but her very high playerbase experience distribution should lead us to expect that this is slightly inflated, and it isn't exactly amazing anyway. This is also an incredibly favorable meta for her, given the high presence of carry top laners and junglers in solo queue play, which suggests that her winrate could easily drop through the floor when the meta changes (and indeed, we've seen her winrate be much worse even earlier this season when tanks were stronger). Since she's not even strong in her ideal meta and when played primarily by Riven mains, there's room for a buff.
Azir's performance is completely and utterly separate from the performance of other champions. Every champion has a different situation. He is bad, and he does deserve changes, but that says literally nothing about Riven and Vayne. They deserved changes.
Riven buff is absurd.You don't protect it.
Some Rudimentary Analysis: Riven's ult ramps up to the maximum damage at the 25% health remaining threshold, therefore: New Ult: 6004 =2,400 health target with zero armor Same as 1,200 health target w/ 100 armor Old Ult: 4804 = 1,920 health Same as 960 health w/ 100 armor
So extreme buffs and Riven will get nerfs after Worlds.
Sightless662 votesSo, are you giving up on attacking the Vayne buffs? Or do you have nothing else to say about that? Was it just your Vayne bias causing you to complain that she was getting help she desperately needed? That's how it looks to me.
I just explained to you why the winrate statistics on Riven suggest that she's not good, and your response is to just say "this is what Riven does". That's pitiful.
Riven buff is absurd.You don't protect it.
Statistics matter, and when we have a champion played primarily by mains in the most favorable meta they've had in 2 years and is only barely scraping by as average, then that champion is mediocre and needs a buff. End of story.
Some Rudimentary Analysis:
"Rudimentary" is the right word for it. All you did was say what the champion does and that she's a bit better at it. That has no value whatsoever. Given that she was mediocre, we expect that champion to be better after a buff. What's your point?
Hell, your "analysis" isn't even accurate. You are making predictions only using the maximum values that she can't reach unless the enemy has 1% hp. That means that you're complaining about value changes that are literally impossible to reach because she will have long since been overkilling the target. You need to assume changes based on a kill at roughly 20% hp.
Seriously man, don't even bother with analyzing champion abilities if you're not willing to be honest about them. You deliberately set that comparison up to look as bad for Riven as possible, even though it's unrealistic to the actual game. Don't try to be dishonest. It will earn you no points with me.
Treune811 votesSo, are you giving up on attacking the Vayne buffs? Or do you have nothing else to say about that? Was it just your Vayne bias causing you to complain that she was getting help she desperately needed? That's how it looks to me.
I just explained to you why the winrate statistics on Riven suggest that she's not good, and your response is to just say "this is what Riven does". That's pitiful.
Statistics matter, and when we have a champion played primarily by mains in the most favorable meta they've had in 2 years and is only barely scraping by as average, then that champion is mediocre and needs a buff. End of story.
"Rudimentary" is the right word for it. All you did was say what the champion does and that she's a bit better at it. That has no value whatsoever. Given that she was mediocre, we expect that champion to be better after a buff. What's your point?
Hell, your "analysis" isn't even accurate. You are making predictions only using the maximum values that she can't reach unless the enemy has 1% hp. That means that you're complaining about value changes that are literally impossible to reach because she will have long since been overkilling the target. You need to assume changes based on a kill at roughly 20% hp.
Seriously man, don't even bother with analyzing champion abilities if you're not willing to be honest about them. You deliberately set that comparison up to look as bad for Riven as possible, even though it's unrealistic to the actual game. Don't try to be dishonest. It will earn you no points with me.
Vayne buffs are still wrong.Her late game is monster and late game buff is absurd.She can get early game buff.Riven buffs are absurd too. https://champion.gg/champion/Riven 51% win rate and 53% win rate for her mains.Riven was balanced and she will be op after this buff.
Sightless662 votesVayne buffs are still wrong.
Oh, so winrate statistics don't matter when you personally hate the champion? Careful dude, your bias is showing.
I thought you defended weak champions. Is that a lie now too? How do you justify attacking buffs to a 46% winrate? Is it just because you don't like this champion? Of course it is.
I knew you weren't honest. No one who really likes the truth has to say that they love it so often. It's like a politician telling me he loves the truth.
late game buff is absurd.
It's called "preserving champion identity". Vayne is meant to be strong late game and weak early. Why homogenize her by trying to make her less weak early?
51% win rate and 53% win rate for her mains.
Closer to 50%, and given the factors I mentioned earlier, this is not impressive. Small buffs (and this buff is small) are very justifiable.
Mind you, doing nothing for a bit longer until her winrate tanked again was also justifiable, but given that they're nerfing the carry top laners in this patch and the next one, it's a good enough time to buff a champion that will be negatively affected by the meta shift.
Treune811 votesOh, so winrate statistics don't matter when you personally hate the champion? Careful dude, your bias is showing.
I thought you defended weak champions. Is that a lie now too? How do you justify attacking buffs to a 46% winrate? Is it just because you don't like this champion? Of course it is.
I knew you weren't honest. No one who really likes the truth has to say that they love it so often. It's like a politician telling me he loves the truth.
It's called "preserving champion identity". Vayne is meant to be strong late game and weak early. Why homogenize her by trying to make her less weak early?
Closer to 50%, and given the factors I mentioned earlier, this is not impressive. Small buffs (and this buff is small) are very justifiable.
Mind you, doing nothing for a bit longer until her winrate tanked again was also justifiable, but given that they're nerfing the carry top laners in this patch and the next one, it's a good enough time to nerf a champion that will be negatively affected by the meta shift.
Her late game is monster so late game buff is wrong because he can one shot to tanks.
Closer to 50%.Bad argument and excuse because Riven didn't deserve buffs.High skill cap, 53% win rate after 125+ games and big buffs.51% win rate is still very high for Riven.She needed nerf, she didn't need buff.Probably 60% win rate after 300-400 games.
Sightless661 votesHer late game is monster so late game buff is wrong because he can one shot to tanks.
She's designed around having a strong late game. Preserving that and keeping her focused in that direction is very good design. Giving her a better early game would be the wrong direction. Punishing her early on should be the best option against her.
Additionally, this isn't helping her much against tanks. It's an increase to flat damage instead of %HP damage. That's way more effective against squishes that tanks.
It's a good buff man. More power against squishies than tanks, buff to the part of the game she's meant to shine in. Overall, smart design.
High skill cap,
Is that really borne out by the statistics? Doesn't exactly seem to be true looking at her winrate distribution. Seems like a myth.
Besides, if she really is high skillcap, than 53% winrate on mains is not impressive. That's incredibly average, which is less than the best players on a high skillcap champion should be earning. This is especially true since her 50-125 winrate is sub-50%, and we've already heard from Rioters in the past that Champion.gg's 125+ data shouldn't be implicitly trusted due to lack of data. Given her high playrate distribution and the very favorable meta, nothing is really impressive here.
big buffs
Much smaller than you think. Changes of less than 100 to an ult at 16 aren't ever particularly important (and it is less than 100 because you'll be overkilling someone by the time you kit 100 extra damage).
It's justifiable.
Treune811 votesShe's designed around having a strong late game. Preserving that and keeping her focused in that direction is very good design. Giving her a better early game would be the wrong direction. Punishing her early on should be the best option against her.
Additionally, this isn't helping her much against tanks. It's an increase to flat damage instead of %HP damage. That's way more effective against squishes that tanks.
It's a good buff man.
Is that really borne out by the statistics? Doesn't exactly seem to be true looking at her winrate distribution. Seems like a myth.
Besides, if she really is high skillcap, than 53% winrate on mains is not impressive. That's incredibly average, which is less than the best players on a high skillcap champion should be earning. This is especially true since her 50-125 winrate is sub-50%, and we've already heard from Rioters in the past that Champion.gg's 125+ data shouldn't be implicitly trusted due to lack of data.
Much smaller than you think. Changes of less than 100 to an ult at 16 aren't ever particularly important (and it is less than 100 because you'll be overkilling someone by the time you kit 100 extra damage).
Big buffs because even 25 damage is very high.Meanwhile Vayne buff is still wrong.Her late game is still so strong and Riot reduces champions extreme features but they did wrong buffs.They buffed Vayne's extreme way.Remember Viktor waveclear nerf.Remember ad itemization buffs.Remember Azir soldier nerf.
''Besides, if she really is high skillcap, than 53% winrate on mains is not impressive. That's incredibly average, which is less than the best players on a high skillcap champion should be earning. This is especially true since her 50-125 winrate is sub-50%, and we've already heard from Rioters in the past that Champion.gg's 125+ data shouldn't be implicitly trusted due to lack of data.''
Absurd argument because Yasuo's situation is same but they are nerfing Yasuo.Same situation.Only favouritism. https://champion.gg/champion/Yasuo/Top
Other website proves my point. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/riven
Sightless661 votesRiot reduces champions extreme features
Not if they can avoid doing so. They generally aim to promote extreme differences in champion roles. That's an overgeneralization. Riot reduces extreme features only when they promote noninteractive or low counterplay gameplay. Otherwise, their stated design philosophy is to buff strengths and nerf weaknesses. That promotes champion diversity.
Remember Viktor waveclear nerf
Yeah, and then I remember them returning it with some extra waveclear added on with his rework. As soon as they reduced his reliability, they felt comfortable returning huge waveclear.
Remember Azir soldier nerf.
What? This was enhancing an extreme feature, not reducing it. The midgame was his weakest point, and they made it even weaker. If they were reducing an extreme feature, they would have targeted his late game instead, because that is when he's strongest. Nerfing the point of a game where a champion is weakest doesn't really jive with the whole "reducing extreme features" thing.
Absurd argument because Yasuo's situation is same but they are nerfing Yasuo.
You mean, aside from the higher winrate, the higher winrate on mains at both 50 and 125 games, the meta that doesn't favor him, the lower playerbase distribution, the steady increase on the winrate by games played stat, and the introduction of a new build that promotes unhealthy gameplay that he wasn't designed for?
I really don't understand what you're trying to get at here.
Other website proves my point.
Looks like it proves mine. It claims a 49% winrate, which is the highest she's been for the better part of a year. Her rise to even 49% is only recent, which supports my argument that she's currently in a beneficial meta. Add in the fairly normal winrate by playrate (I like that they don't bother with 125+), and I'm feeling pretty comfortable with my assessment.
Anyway, that's all for tonight. No more time. Later man. I look forward to more Azir spam tomorrow!
Treune811 votesNot if they can avoid doing so. They generally aim to promote extreme differences in champion roles. That's an overgeneralization. Riot reduces extreme features only when they promote noninteractive or low counterplay gameplay. Otherwise, their stated design philosophy is to buff strengths and nerf weaknesses. That promotes champion diversity.
Yeah, and then I remember them returning it with some extra waveclear added on with his rework. As soon as they reduced his reliability, they felt comfortable returning huge waveclear.
What? This was enhancing an extreme feature, not reducing it. The midgame was his weakest point, and they made it even weaker. If they were reducing an extreme feature, they would have targeted his late game instead, because that is when he's strongest. Nerfing the point of a game where a champion is weakest doesn't really jive with the whole "reducing extreme features" thing.
You mean, aside from the higher winrate, the higher winrate on mains at both 50 and 125 games, the meta that doesn't favor him, the lower playerbase distribution, the steady increase on the winrate by games played stat, and the introduction of a new build that promotes unhealthy gameplay that he wasn't designed for?
I really don't understand what you're trying to get at here.
Anyway, that's all for tonight. Later man.
Vayne deserved buffs but Riven didn't deserve.I'm protecting underdog champions but I still claims.Riven was balanced.Riven didn't need buff.I'm not hypocrite people.I defend the right.Riven's and her mains win rate was fine.
Sightless661 votesSo, I didn't intend to post anymore tonight, and I really do need to just hurry up and get to sleep, but I just saw this on another thread and I thought it went really well with what you just wrote:
Vayne was balanced because she is high skill cap champion and 46-47% win rate isn't bad for her.
So, you seem to be saying two different things. On one hand, you're saying that you defend underdog champions. On the other hand, you specifically made this thread complaining about Vayne receiving a buff and claimed in another thread that a 46% winrate was good for her. You said that you like the truth, but you told me one thing (Vayne needs a buff) and told another person something entirely different (46% winrate is good for Vayne and she was balanced). It sounds like you're just telling me what I want to hear, not what you actually think.
Doesn't look like you're actually making your opinions based on balance. You defend champions you like. You attack champions you dislike. When someone annoying (me) pressures you, you tell them what they want to hear instead of what you actually think is true.
If someone else was doing this, I don't think you'd believe absolutely everything they said. I can't really change my standards just because you make the boards a more enjoyable place. You're not untrustworthy either of course. Just normal.
Treune811 votesSo, I didn't intend to post anymore tonight, and I really do need to just hurry up and get to sleep, but I just saw this on another thread and I thought it went really well with what you just wrote:
So, you seem to be saying two different things. On one hand, you're saying that you defend underdog champions. On the other hand, you specifically made this thread complaining about Vayne receiving a buff and claimed in another thread that a 46% winrate was good for her. You said that you like the truth, but you told me one thing (Vayne needs a buff) and told another person something entirely different (46% winrate is good for Vayne and she was balanced). It sounds like you're just telling me what I want to hear, not what you actually think.
Doesn't look like you're actually making your opinions based on balance. You defend champions you like. You attack champions you dislike. When someone annoying (me) pressures you, you tell them what they want to hear instead of what you actually think is true.
If someone else was doing this, I don't think you'd believe absolutely everything they said. I can't really change my standards just because you make the boards a more enjoyable place. You're not untrustworthy either of course. Just normal.
I compared Vayne with Azir's situation.You don't talk without knowing.Vayne is balanced as Azir.Also you still didn't sleep.
''Anyway, that's all for tonight. No more time. Later man. I look forward to more Azir spam tomorrow!''
I think you're liar people.Lets liar people lets.Go away.
Sightless661 votesYou said vayne needed buffs to me and otherwise to someone else. You lied to someone. I only failed to go to sleep. You failed to telp someone what you actually believed.
It was a mistake. It's ok man. Just man up to it and move on.
Treune811 votesYou said vayne needed buffs to me and otherwise to someone else. You lied to someone. I only failed to go to sleep. You failed to telp someone what you actually believed.
It was a mistake. It's ok man. Just man up to it and move on.
As a result you lied too.Also I compared Vayne with Azir so you're still talking without knowing.
Sightless661 votesYou literally said the 46% winrate was fine for her, while saying to me that she needed buffs. Those are not compatiable statements. The azir comparison does not change that even slightly. The context is still the same.
I'll admit freely that i am not good at sticking to sleep schedules. I'm completely comfortable with that. It's much better than being dishonest about a belief.
You aren't comfortable with what you said like i am. You are the one denying what you did. Just admit you made a mistake. I did. You should be able to man up and admit it. Denying that you made a mistake is choosing to lie, instead of lying by mistake. Don't do that.
Treune811 votesYou literally said the 46% winrate was fine for her, while saying to me that she needed buffs. Those are not compatiable statements. The azir comparison does not change that even slightly. The context is still the same.
I'll admit freely that i am not good at sticking to sleep schedules. I'm completely comfortable with that. It's much better than being dishonest about a belief.
You aren't comfortable with what you said like i am. You are the one denying what you did. Just admit you made a mistake. I did. You should be able to man up and admit it. Denying that you made a mistake is choosing to lie, instead of lying by mistake. Don't do that.
I said late game buff is wrong and 48% win rate isn't bad for her.I didn't lie.If Vayne has 48% win rate she doesn't need buff but her win rate is 46% so she needs very small buff but shouldn't be late game buff.
Treune811 votesShe's designed around having a strong late game. Preserving that and keeping her focused in that direction is very good design. Giving her a better early game would be the wrong direction. Punishing her early on should be the best option against her.
Additionally, this isn't helping her much against tanks. It's an increase to flat damage instead of %HP damage. That's way more effective against squishes that tanks.
It's a good buff man. More power against squishies than tanks, buff to the part of the game she's meant to shine in. Overall, smart design.
Is that really borne out by the statistics? Doesn't exactly seem to be true looking at her winrate distribution. Seems like a myth.
Besides, if she really is high skillcap, than 53% winrate on mains is not impressive. That's incredibly average, which is less than the best players on a high skillcap champion should be earning. This is especially true since her 50-125 winrate is sub-50%, and we've already heard from Rioters in the past that Champion.gg's 125+ data shouldn't be implicitly trusted due to lack of data. Given her high playrate distribution and the very favorable meta, nothing is really impressive here.
Much smaller than you think. Changes of less than 100 to an ult at 16 aren't ever particularly important (and it is less than 100 because you'll be overkilling someone by the time you kit 100 extra damage).
It's justifiable.
You defend unnecessary and buffs of your favourite champions.I think you don't talk anymore.
Sightless661 votesI own neither, and I can prove it if you want to get in a lobby with me and try to trade them. I hate Vayne. You need a better explanation.
Sightless661 votesYou said "champions" which is plural. It implies that you can not be talking about only 1 champion. Regardless, I own neither and can prove it. I have been around since season 2. I could have her if i wanted her, but i don't.
Treune811 votesYou said "champions" which is plural. It implies that you can not be talking about only 1 champion. Regardless, I own neither and can prove it. I have been around since season 2. I could have her if i wanted her, but i don't.
You're honest but I'm not according to you.Lol.I said Vayne is decent because Vayne isn't bad spot but Azir is garbage if we compare them.
Sightless661 votesIf you intended to only say azir is worse than vayne, then that's fine, but that doesn't fit with what you wrote abd it doesn't fit the context of the cinversation. It would not be dishonest if that really was your intention, but it really does not fit in the conversation. Very weirdly written man. A writing mistake at the very least.
Treune812 votesIf you intended to only say azir is worse than vayne, then that's fine, but that doesn't fit with what you wrote abd it doesn't fit the context of the cinversation. It would not be dishonest if that really was your intention, but it really does not fit in the conversation. Very weirdly written man.
Yes I mean it but you blame me.
Treune812 votesIf you intended to only say azir is worse than vayne, then that's fine, but that doesn't fit with what you wrote abd it doesn't fit the context of the cinversation. It would not be dishonest if that really was your intention, but it really does not fit in the conversation. Very weirdly written man. A writing mistake at the very least.
I hope you understood.
Sightless661 votesWhat you wrote gave me no other choice. What you wanted to say is not what your text actually said. I believe you somewhat now, but i still have to have some doubts because of how out of context that statement was and because of the other stuff you said about vayne in that thread. I will believe you as much as i can, but it is not 100%.
If you really did just write it with mistakes, i apologize for the misunderstanding. Can't do much more than that
Treune812 votesWhat you wrote gave me no other choice. What you wanted to say is not what your text actually said. I believe you somewhat now, but i still have to have some doubts because of how out of context that statement was and because of the other stuff you said about vayne in that thread. I will believe you as much as i can, but it is not 100%.
If you really did just write it with mistakes, i apologize for the misunderstanding. Can't do much more than that
Only comparison mate only comparison.I discussed that guy over stats so I compared her with Azir.I complain Riven buff but I don't complain Vayne buff.
Sightless661 votesThat really, really is not how what you wrote actually read to me, but at this point, it feels more like i'm arguing over your grammer and your English than over your intention. You've explained what you intended to say, and while we still have disagreements, we've already talked them over. That's good enough for me.
Treune811 votesWhat happened Azir haters? Reality, facts.I hope you don't cry about other broken champions buffs.
Not only Azir.RIP Kindred, Kalista, Ryze.
Treune811 votesSame IP Riot.Same IP address.