Does Kai'sa need buffs or do other ADC's need nerfs?

MorgManBasher·Mar 16, 2018·51 votes·3,575 views

I think we all know the answer to this.

108 Comments

YuGiHoMar 16, 201839 votes

remember when no one played varus?

RagnaveilMar 16, 20186 votes

I do, and I remember maining him before this whole on hit showbiz. The good ol days of Crit Varus....

BârdMar 16, 20184 votes

I miss the legolas build.

RagnaveilMar 16, 20181 votes

I forgot what that consisted of since it's been so long, care to remind me?

BârdMar 16, 20182 votes

Bloodthirster > Last Whisper > Zeal > IE > Finish PD > GA/Maw

Votable JesterMar 16, 20181 votes

Is there a reason for calling it the legolas build?

BârdMar 16, 20187 votes

Because the build made his Q very powerful at the cost of his attack speed, so you had to snipe people to be effective.

OzXMar 17, 20182 votes

You built crit AS and life steal for a poke varus? Iirc it was more like tear and armor pen stacking

YuGiHoMar 16, 20187 votes

Im miss mid varus with armor pen before it became lethality

Ashen RiderMar 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I do, and I remember maining him before this whole on hit showbiz. The good ol days of Crit Varus....

I mained Twitch before he became mainstream. I stopped almost immediately. Felt nasty. I miss item 3142 and item 3153 on him.

HayaishiMar 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

remember when no one played varus?

Yeah now heaven forbid he has a place in bot lane.

SEKAIMar 16, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Yeah now heaven forbid he has a place in bot lane.

Though being succeeding Kog's legacy right off the bat is a bit extreme as a comeback.

HópeMar 16, 201832 votes

Think Kai'sa needs to be chilled out and not touched for a while. People are still figuring her out.

Also Trist is too good because of her jump i wish they removed her reset on 4th explosive shot.

GigglesOMar 16, 20184 votes

{quoted}

i wish they removed her reset on 4th explosive shot.

"But it takes skill to get that off" "But adc's should be safe while having high damage" "but we need it to deal with the tanks"

Yea don't let the adc mains hear, cause thats the shit they will say.

FurriesAreHotMar 16, 20183 votes

Tristana is borderline busted, not sure what being an ADC main has to due with my opinion.

GigglesOMar 16, 20183 votes

I'd say a large chunk of adc's want them to be even stronger... why wouldn't you want your class to auto win?

Edit: You can ignore the auto attack pun :| was not intended.

FurriesAreHotMar 16, 20182 votes

Because I have to fight them in lane.

MorganFreemanBotMar 16, 201813 votes

Kai'sai is weak and vulnerable early game, skill dependent and generally nothing to write home about mid game, and an absolute fucking terror late game. As a result she's pretty much garbage.

She's what the entire ADC line should be with slight variations. The over abundance of ADC's who become monsters at one and a half - or not even one - items is way too high, as is the number of self sufficient bullies who can take on bruisers, tanks, and assassins solo quite early in the game.

HayaishiMar 16, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Kai'sai is weak and vulnerable early game, skill dependent and generally nothing to write home about mid game, and an absolute fucking terror late game. As a result she's pretty much garbage.

She's what the entire ADC line should be with slight variations. The over abundance of ADC's who become monsters at one and a half - or not even one - items is way too high, as is the number of self sufficient bullies who can take on bruisers, tanks, and assassins solo quite early in the game.

You will sing a different tune when people figure her out.

If you hate Vayne you'll hate her more. I can already see the complains "HER Q DOES TOO MUCH DAMAGE" "WHY IS AN ADC TAKING HALF MY HP WITH A SINGLE ABILITY"

MorganFreemanBotMar 16, 20188 votes

{quoted}

You will sing a different tune when people figure her out.

If you hate Vayne you'll hate her more. I can already see the complains "HER Q DOES TOO MUCH DAMAGE" "WHY IS AN ADC TAKING HALF MY HP WITH A SINGLE ABILITY"

Her Q hurts if you are the ONLY person in range, if there's even 1 other person in range it does something like 30% less damage, even more if it's been 'activated'.

It also won't change the big point here: Her damage output in the late game is nightmarish (I.E. when her Q starts mercing you). In the lane phase it's not very strong, not unlocked yet, and minions are abundant to help split the damage. For her lane phase snap-burst potential to reach Vayne levels she needs to land her W - which is skill and should be rewarded in lane phase - or have a heavy lockdown support (Leona, Alistar) who sets her up heavily. Both of which are fine, because they both take substantially more skill and coordinate than vayne going "Hurr durr, right click Q right click." and chunking you for % health true damage and AD scaling bonus damage.

FlameHalbrdOkidoMar 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You will sing a different tune when people figure her out.

If you hate Vayne you'll hate her more. I can already see the complains "HER Q DOES TOO MUCH DAMAGE" "WHY IS AN ADC TAKING HALF MY HP WITH A SINGLE ABILITY"

Well the big difference is Vayne does 2 many things 2 well, and the main offenders are her having the tools to play well as an assassin in addition to a dmg set up to kill tanks. Thus all targets are available to her.

I think Kai'sa is a healthier version of Vayne because both are meant to kinda play like an assassin, and Kai'sa does this, but as a cost she can't beat everyone namely tanks.

FlameHalbrdOkidoMar 16, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Kai'sai is weak and vulnerable early game, skill dependent and generally nothing to write home about mid game, and an absolute fucking terror late game. As a result she's pretty much garbage.

She's what the entire ADC line should be with slight variations. The over abundance of ADC's who become monsters at one and a half - or not even one - items is way too high, as is the number of self sufficient bullies who can take on bruisers, tanks, and assassins solo quite early in the game.

I think that most Marksmen should take more time to come online, but increased variation is healthy for the games growth

HópeMar 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I think that most Marksmen should take more time to come online, but increased variation is healthy for the games growth

Thing is, While i do agree Marksmen come online too fast, I also do stand by the fact that everyone comes online too fast right now. Veigar and Anivia are scaling extremely fast in the early game too.

We cant just blind side it to adcs only when even Supports are doing half your health because their items are so reachable and buffed.

My Waifu VanillaMar 17, 20181 votes

It depends on the types of variation. What was it? 2 seasons ago? Right after ADC in 2017 LUL? When you could literally ONLY play Lucian, Jhin, MF, and Draven with lethality because of even THINKING about picking something that went for crit caused you to go 0/5 in lane since your lane opponent had absurd kill potential on you with a Dirk while you were still in lane hoarding gold for a BF Sword which didn't come close to spiking as hard.

As a general rule of thumb in any game if there are options to be early game or late game MOST of the time the early game causes the late game option to be unviable even if itself is fully functional in a vacuum. This is only a scenario though if the early game can actually close out a game before the scalers can catch up which is why it is not necessarily the case in the current meta game since the likes of Ezreal, Lucian, and Draven TYPICALLY can't win the game before champions like Tristana or Xayah get to 9k gold and outscale with 3 items and are thus "unplayable".

FlameHalbrdOkidoMar 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vWsciifH,comment-id=000300010001,timestamp=2018-03-17T04:26:50.674+0000)

It depends on the types of variation.

Variation in what each type of Marksman brings 2 the team

you check this post out to see what i mean https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/lT3B52ki-in-my-opinion-for-marksmen-to-be-a-healthier-class-riot-should-flesh-out-their-gameplay-niche?

AirKingNeoMar 16, 20189 votes

Shiv is already being nerfed. Varus is hit with Rageblade nerf. RFC doesn't need nerfs, just lose synergy with Shiv. Tristana was already nerfed (but probably not enough).

All is left is Xayah.

MorgManBasherMar 16, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Shiv is already being nerfed. Varus is hit with Rageblade nerf. RFC doesn't need nerfs, just lose synergy with Shiv. Tristana was already nerfed (but probably not enough).

All is left is Xayah.

They need to make it so shiv and rapid fire can't both be used together....share the same passive or something.

Chigara AshadaMar 16, 20186 votes

I think people just need to give her more than a couple weeks to learn her microplay rather than immediately assuming that she is the problem. The new players that don't fully understand how to play her is the problem.

vgamedudeMar 16, 20185 votes

We saw what happened to a new mid laner who dared show any sort of thing resembling strength Zoe , absolutely guttered. Ornn small buffs after he showed to be useless, winrate remained garbage but he was good in pro play so what happens? Guttered.

An ADC? Big surprise hot fix buffs.

Riot is so obviously biased towards ADC at this point it just isn't even funny anymore.

SEKAIMar 16, 20185 votes

{quoted}

We saw what happened to a new mid laner who dared show any sort of thing resembling strength , absolutely guttered. small buffs after he showed to be useless, winrate remained garbage but he was good in pro play so what happens? Guttered.

An ADC? Big surprise hot fix buffs.

Riot is so obviously biased towards ADC at this point it just isn't even funny anymore.

To be fair, Zoe had it coming, her kit has way too many issues going on at once (outside of ulti, each of her normal spells is almost enough to ask for reworks on an individual basis due to being almost impossible to balance on fundamental design, and she has 3 of them, that all work together) and that's not even including that her release number was completely through the roof on top of it too.

Also, Ornn was not garbage at release, not really, but he did go through the Ivern Effect for it. That is also the reason why people beg Riot to not buff Kai'Sa next patch right away because she will most likely just turn into yet another Ivern and Ornn.

vgamedudeMar 16, 20181 votes

No. If zoes kit was as broken as people say she would've had some indication of it in the numbers. She had none, not insane damage done, not insane winrate, not insane kda, nothing. No matter the elo. The only statistically she was out of line in was banrate, and in pro play pickrate. That's it.

Nothing at all indicative of her being a broken champion, and now she is disgusting to play and they gutted her.

SEKAIMar 16, 20188 votes

{quoted}

No. If zoes kit was as broken as people say she would've had some indication of it in the numbers. She had none, not insane damage done, not insane winrate, not insane kda, nothing. No matter the elo. The only statistically she was out of line in was banrate, and in pro play pickrate. That's it.

Nothing at all indicative of her being a broken champion, and now she is disgusting to play and they gutted her.

Ryze (after they add tp ulti) and Azir didn't have extraordinary solo queue stats either, doesn't mean the champs didn't have clear balance issues.

Zoe's is worse, each of her spell is on the same level of fundamental unbalance-ness as Ryze's ulti. Q is exactly what got Nid reworked, but worse; W is straight up impossible to balance due to extreme RNGesus; E is one of the most overloaded spell in the entire game. It doesn't even take a 5yo child to see Zoe's kit is fundamentally busted.

vgamedudeMar 16, 20181 votes

What you're saying isn't based on any logic though, you keep saying it's obvious if it was so obvious it would've been reflected by literally any factual metric and it isn't. You can't keep saying something is obvious with zero evidence or proof of it being so and acting like people disagreeing is stupid. It's entirely the opposite.

You're also implying I'm as dumb as a 5yo, really nice there considering you're argument is pure anecdote.

Yet again I get downvoted for doing nothing besides pointing out facts that anyone can literally search and find. There was absolutely no metric that Zoe was factually out of line in besides ban rate. That was ALL.

SEKAIMar 16, 20186 votes

{quoted}

What you're saying isn't based on any logic though, you keep saying it's obvious if it was so obvious it would've been reflected by literally any factual metric and it isn't. You can't keep saying something is obvious with zero evidence or proof of it being so and acting like people disagreeing is stupid. It's entirely the opposite.

You're also implying I'm as dumb as a 5yo, really nice there considering you're argument is pure anecdote.

Yet again I get downvoted for doing nothing besides pointing out facts that anyone can literally search and find. There was absolutely no metric that Zoe was factually out of line in besides ban rate. That was ALL.

Did you just conveniently skip the part where I lay out the reason why Zoe's kit is such a design disaster?

My post only had 2 paragraphs, how do you miss out 1 of them entirely?

Or you did actually read it, but just don't consider the clear as day explanation as valid.

Zoe's Q is a superior version of old Nid's Q, which means she had all of the design problems of old Nid and more. So that already is a big deal. I mean, why would something that got a champ reworked for, somehow end up in a more borked iteration on a new champ?
Zoe's W is extreme RNG, which is something Riot has declared countless times that they're against out of sheer principles alone. So had they actually bothered checking her kit prior to release, Zoe literally wouldn't even come out of the door. This is not counting the obvious fact having so much power designated into RNG with extreme bipolar potential outcomes is just asking for trouble (and this is even why Riot has an agenda against RNG in the first place; though they for some reason still think their extreme fetish for crits is fine, but that's for another day).
Zoe's E is extremely overloaded, or at least "was". I'll just quickly list its attributes for you to just have a look at the sheer amount of BS it has and used to have. When Zoe was just released E has (notice "just released"): A strong CC that lasts 4 seconds in total, 2 second slow that transition to 2 second stun (which the slow used to have 70% slow when maxed, so it was almost 2 second root plus 2 second stun); the next attack on the sleep target amplifies the damage taken up to a maximum of DOUBLE DAMAGE; E-ball's range is DOUBLED when passing through terrains; if you complete miss it, dw, it will then turn into a trap that applies the effect to the enemy walking through it that lasts FOUR SECONDS with width so wide it can deny 3/4 of the lane and completely block off jungle routines which can make chasing and escaping from Zoe completely impossible in many situations without burning flash; hitting the spell also REFUNDS THE CD up to 30% max, when the spell's CD is already only at 16-14 seconds (which means even with just the older Morello that still gave CDR of 20%, and Zoe only having 1 point in E, hitting an enemy means her next E is just 16-16x0.3=11.2 seconds away, WITH THIS KIND OF POWER BUDGET. If Zoe has max level with max CDR of let's say 40%, let's not go 45% cap, landing a E means its CD is 14-14x0.7= 4.2 seconds CD. FOUR POINT TWO SECONDS CD FOR THIS INSANELY OVERLOADED SPELL).... Oh and I nearly forgot, it also used to be the case her sleep can not be cleansed, and Riot defended that it's conscious design choice and blah blah, yeah, until they they realised how cocking stupid it is on top of the design horseshit that already is Zoe's E so they made it so that you can now properly cleanse it (together with a bunch of things they end up nerfing into the ground or outright removing from Zoe's E because it's just way too god damn overloaded). Fuck Zoe's E, utterly disgusting.

The real miracle is how Zoe even managed to get released with a kit this baffling.

Dark NephthysMar 16, 20185 votes

One thing I'll add to her E to make it even more disgusting is that the double damage from her E is also true damage which can be applied by any spell (ofc up to a certain amount of damage though but still). I'm happy they gutted Zoe, she really was stupid strong on release.

vgamedudeMar 17, 20181 votes

DUDE

Saying "look at what she has thats why shes op" If NO NUMBER REFLECTS IT is meaningless.

That's like me describing a champions kit and then saying "yep thats overpowered case closed", if the actual numbers don't reflect it it's meaningless anecdote.

I'm so sick and tired of posts like this. Even more tired of the cancerous reddit culture and upvote system where non facts get constantly upvoted and someone doing nothing but pointing out hard factual numbers gets downvoted. What a ridiculous system and place.

SEKAIMar 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

DUDE

Saying "look at what she has thats why shes op" If NO NUMBER REFLECTS IT is meaningless.

That's like me describing a champions kit and then saying "yep thats overpowered case closed", if the actual numbers don't reflect it it's meaningless anecdote.

I'm so sick and tired of posts like this. Even more tired of the cancerous reddit culture and upvote system where non facts get constantly upvoted and someone doing nothing but pointing out hard factual numbers gets downvoted. What a ridiculous system and place.

I never said she was statistically overpowered (I even talked about how Ryze and Azir didn't really have obvious stats problems too, but it doesn't meant they did/do not have issues), I said she has a ton of "design" problems. And to support my claims, I both went onto briefs and details on why her design is, imo and as per explanation, clearly problematic.

The only thing that is said which is assignable with the notion of suggesting her to be statistically overpowered is that I said her release number was also high, which is quite true given she was capable of actual literal 1shots that kills opponent from full HP to 0 with just Q and reposition from R alone and had been tried in pro scene. But my main point had always been about her design.

vgamedudeMar 17, 20181 votes

She killed a damn ezreal who was behind and two levels under her with no mr aside from maybe a qss (cant even remember)

people act like that's an issue an adc that fed would've killed him in a similar amount of time with auto attacks that couldn't miss.

If they aren't statistically overpowered at all and nothing is factually overpowered they shouldn't be nerfed, especially not gutted like zoe was.

SEKAIMar 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

She killed a damn ezreal who was behind and two levels under her with no mr aside from maybe a qss (cant even remember)

people act like that's an issue an adc that fed would've killed him in a similar amount of time with auto attacks that couldn't miss.

If they aren't statistically overpowered at all and nothing is factually overpowered they shouldn't be nerfed, especially not gutted like zoe was.

Nobody said adcs critting 1000+ per hit at he speed of 2 per second is okay, similarly having 1 ability almost ALONE that it itself is capable of doing 1500+ or so damage in the case when that Ezreal died is clearly a problem.

But that 1 shot is minor, I never banked my argument on it but rather her very obvious and tried-and-true design issues.

Also, yes, design issues should be addressed, why shouldn't they be? Why do you think Urgot was left in the dumpster fire for like 6 years? Why was "Olaf'ed" a meme, why was Aatrox a meme, why is Skarner still a meme? Why was Azir gutted so hard, why was Kalista gutted and tweaked, why was LB reworked, why was Ryze reworked like 4 times? Ofc design problem is still a problem, why wouldn't they be?

vgamedudeMar 17, 20181 votes

Zoes design wasnt a result that made her overpowered, that is factually true.

If you can thread a max range q onto an ADC you DESERVE to kill them. ADCs get ridiculous damage and sit back and use attacks that can't even miss, burst mages like zoe should be rewarded for hitting skill shots. Even with her previous state it didn't result in her being overpowered.

Killing an underfed, under leveled, no defensive item adc with a MAX range skillshot like that isn't an issue.

SEKAIMar 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Zoes design wasnt a result that made her overpowered, that is factually true.

If you can thread a max range q onto an ADC you DESERVE to kill them. ADCs get ridiculous damage and sit back and use attacks that can't even miss, burst mages like zoe should be rewarded for hitting skill shots. Even with her previous state it didn't result in her being overpowered.

Killing an underfed, under leveled, no defensive item adc with a MAX range skillshot like that isn't an issue.

Skillshots isn't the be-all-end-all, Zoe's is full circle back to the old Nid's problem: Should a spell, a SINGLE and SPAMMABLE spell, that can by itself 1 shot or at least severely cripple someone's HP and force them recall, just because it's a skillshot? The debate answer was a "NO" mostly on the basis that a spammable spell should not be attached with a great reward, and Nid was reworked, so why should Zoe repeat the exact same issue that was already resolved, and more extreme at it because Zoe's Q can be redirected? How does that even make any sense?

And that's just 1 spell, she has 3 in the level of being this fundamentally busted in her system, which you constantly ignore is the main deal of her shit, where given if any champ is reworked because of 1 high level broken aspect in their kit it would mean Zoe is already qualified to warrant 3 reworks right after just coming out; obviously that can be labelled as being "Broken" and needs fix. Ofc the balance team went after her this hard, her design should have never be released, at least CLEARLY not in the kind of design logic and presentation she possess.

vgamedudeMar 17, 20181 votes

You can go on and on telling me about her spells that I already know of what they do and you're just wasting breath. None of that means ANYTHING as to her game performance. I can go quote any champions abilities in the way that you are wording things and make it sound absurd, but in the end none of that is translating to in game success or being "broken" in game so it means NOTHING.

vgamedudeMar 17, 20181 votes

Were going in circles because you keep citing what abilities do and saying it as if it's obvious that they're overpowered or would make her broken, and I'm saying if that was the case it would've shown that in actual numbers that matter. You describing what abilities do to imply that they are overpowered doesn't actually mean anything.

I'm not using any kind of rhetoric, I'm referencing actual statistics that are the easiest way to represent how something is performing in the game as a whole and not in singular games, not in anecdotal cases, and not in someones opinion. You just keep constantly citing her abilities as if it means shes overpowered.

Theres no point continuing this unless you have some point to make about her factually or how her abilities affect her numbers as they affect her game performances, winrate and the like. In another thread I'm chatting to someone who is at least attempting to do precisely that.

vgamedudeMar 17, 20181 votes

There is zero point in continuing if you continue to ignore data and facts in favor of your anecdotes and opinions I agree.

LazyW0lfMar 16, 20185 votes

I think all that needed to be changed was to make her range 525, she was fine but just struggled to lane properly.

Lil Homie bustaMar 16, 20185 votes

https://orig00.deviantart.net/de40/f/2017/363/4/6/extreme_thonking_by_ziggythezombiehedgie-dby9bxb.png

KanzlerMar 16, 20182 votes

Kaisa is pretty useless until 3 items compared to other late game adcs. There isn't really a reason to pick her

SEKAIMar 16, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Kaisa is pretty useless until 3 items compared to other late game adcs. There isn't really a reason to pick her

The issue is other ADCs reach their ""late game"" way too early at 2 items.

DuskDaUmbreonMar 16, 20181 votes

Except that's blatantly false.

They don't reach "Late game", they reach the "I'm finally able to actually do something because I now have the two items I need that multiply on each other" stage. A late game build on them is still 4-5 items.

Don't confuse actually mattering with being in late-game. Otherwise you might as well claim AD assassins reach late-game with literally just item 3134 .

Votable JesterMar 16, 20184 votes

item 3134 is not the equivalent, item 3147 is.

And ADCs more than just matter at 2 items, they are able to beat mages 1v1 if they manage to dodge even one of the mage's spells (assuming they're at similar gold levels).