Hey Riot want some Kalista feedback? I REALLY god damn hate her because she takes away all AGENCY

5G8Nri0B54··46 votes·4,893 views

You've created a champion who I hate playing as, who I hate playing against, and whom I hate having as an ally.

Let's start with the obvious. She is such an annoying wildcard in solo queue when you play her because a lot of her success rests on her communication with the oathsworn, and if you know ANYTHING about solo queue...then you'll know that it's a shot in the dark. Let me start with playing AS Kalista...

  • Playing AS Kalista: Depending on your ally's competence, your R is either game changing...or 100% useless because the person you just finished sucking chose to run off to the wrong way rather than the area you pinged or told him to go. YOU choose when to suck your ally, but your ally is the one who chooses what happens next. That really sucks when no matter how hard you try to communicate, that just don't do as they're told.

  • Playing WITH Kalista: Take the above perspective and reverse it. I can choose where to go after she sucked me in, BUT I CAN NOT CHOOSE WHEN she sucks me! Maybe the player just doesn't want to blow her R just to save the Support who saved her ass several times, or maybe the player's reaction is just bad. But with the way the camera adjusts, and how it literally breaks the rhythm if you're, say...Vel'koz who relies on landing comboes, nothing pisses me off more than the jarring camera shift towards Kalista and see my combo being disrupted.

SECONDLY, the oath is terribly designed! The stupid "oath animation" is disruptive as hell. If the Kalista player for whatever reason decide to do it in lane, and it happens more often than I hoped already, you're focked because of how LONG it is and how it just gives your opponents the chance to prepare a trap. Secondly.................................where's the "reject" button? What if I don't want to become your bitch?

Put those two above scenarios and contrast it to Thresh. His lantern is thrown either to collect souls or to save an ally in trouble. The ally CHOOSES when he wants to grab the lantern. And Thresh gets the effect he WANTS to happen because the result will ALWAYS be him sucking his ally towards him. See how much better that feels?

TK;DR - Kalista's design takes away too much AGENCY from both her and her ally! As Kalista you won't know whether your ally will be an un-cooperative jerk-off or someone who actually listens. As the ally, you can not choose to NOT be bonded to her and you can not choose when to get sucked by Kalista.

And thirdly, this has nothing to do with Agency, but...

  • Playing AGAINST Kalista: Yeah um...if you're melee and don't have a gap-closer or some point and click hard CC, you're focked. I don't want to come off as one of those "durr ADC's are OP cuz they're ranged!" guys, but seriously, this is when Warden Mail's pre-nerfed form would have been an absolute necessity.

You can't escape her once her AS is fast enough. You can't chase her without a gap-closer and a hard CC. She's obnoxious.

The SOLE redeeming quality of all this? A lot of Kalista players are still bad and have a tendency to screw up the direction of their hop, making catching them possible. But a practiced Kalista is impossible to even touch.

66 Comments

eatthatmeatball15 votes

You know, RIOT's stance about designs like Kalista's for a loooooooong time was "NO! NO GOD NO! NO NO NO! NEVER IN OUR GAME! TROLLING, rabble rabble, AGENCY, rabble rabble, BURDEN OF KNOWLEDGE!" And League players were all "C'mooooonnnnn! We want more interesting gameplay/design! It's just the same mechanics over and over again! We wish you were more like DOTA 2, waaahhhh!"

So Riot makes a champion they stalwartly defied ever making, and now they get someone complaining on the forums about the very thing they knew would happen if a champ like Kalista was brought into the League that has 16 upvotes as of me typing this.

I think Riot "evolved" on the issue and said "yeah, Kalista might piss some people off but..... eh. Can't please everybody."

You're not saying anything Riot hasn't already told us a thousand times before about why they don't want champion designs like Kalista in their game. I'm glad they took a chance with her.

Desmond Law1 votes

My fan made rework Kalista Passive: Soul's Oath: After 5 seconds, the closest ally within 500 units will be soul bound to Kalista. This bond will only break after Kalista or the soul bound ally dies, where the passive will try to find an available partner again. The tether does not being forming until Kalista begins moving on her base (when the game starts, re-spawn, and recall with no soul bound). The tether can be broken during the 5 second formation by walking out of the 500 unit radius.

Q: Pierce: Passive: Kalista generates one spear ammo every 15 seconds, holding up to 3 spears. After casting this spell, Kalista's next movement command will have her dash 500 units to that location. Active: Kalista hurls a spear, impaling itself into the first unit struck if it doesn't die. Killing a unit allows the spear to pass through to hit another unit. Continues to pierce units until it hits a unit that doesn't die.

W: Sentinel: Passive: When Kalista auto attacks a unit, she marks it. Her Oathsworn will then deal bonus damage to that unit equal to a % of the Oathsworn's missing hp. Active:Kalista sends out a ghost for every champion currently impaled with a spear. If the ghost successfully hunts down a champion, the champion will be slowed 10% for 1 second. More spears, more 10% slow each. Ghosts have 2 hit points, have vision in front of them, and move speed equal to Kalista's total move speed.

E: Rend: Passive: Kalista's auto attacks impale units struck. Max three impalement on one unit. Impalement last 3 seconds. Active: Kalista rips spears out of all units, returning them to her, dealing damage to all units hit on the way back. If Rend kills a unit, its cooldown is refreshed.

R: Oath sworn: Kalista summons a ghost of her Oathsworn partner at target location for 3 seconds, granting vision, not dealing damage, but slows nearby units for 1 second. Her soul bound ally can click on the ghost (if in a 1000 unit range) to be instantly summoned (blink) to that location, knocking up units in that area and deal magic damage. Low damage, but damage increases by a % of the Oathsworn's missing hp.

Rebonack6 votes
  1. Make her Innate scale based on her movespeed rather than her boot tier so that slows actually slow her down.
  2. Give some sort of indicator that lets you know that her E has enough stacks to execute someone to lower the bar on her difficulty just a tad.
  3. Give her a new Ult. Seriously. Preferably something that doesn't make your team hate you.
5G8Nri0B544 votes
  1. Have her passive NOT cc the ally

  2. Let ally reject her Passive

Kitten of Evil1 votes

I'm actually not sure why it scales with the tier of your boots. Nothing else does that I know of.

Rebonack3 votes

The only reason I can think of is so that she's immune to movespeed slows, which is pretty darn absurd.

Hey guys! I've got Yi's Ult as my Innate, isn't that keen?

Narasimha1 votes

Its because scaling it with ms means that it could actually be a buff given her build and allies. You can't just say "Slows = jump shorter." without having "boosts = jump farther."

Mathbalnase1 votes

Well, not unless you tack on...exactly, precisely that. ie. 'dash distance increases based on boot tier and is reduced by MS slows'

Downfall4 votes

NUMBER 2 PLEASE.

Tentacle Love4 votes

when her AS is fast enough, yes, she's horrific (I play her, I know) and there are a few champs like Nasus who can build items that slow your attack speed when you hit them, it's just as horrific to Kalista when her attack speed (and by extension, her movement) gets gutted by surprise.

If you build the Hurricane, and you get into a teamfight, you can shred three targets with alarming speed (though it's far more likely you'll just eat two of them while their minions are around to catch the other spear).

If you play Kalista and you're focusing on using her ult to contribute to the team, you're making a mistake. Her strongest feature is her mobility and her easy laning phase (with rend. GET GOOD AT REND). Her second strongest feature is her amazing wave clear with Runaan's Hurricane.item 3085 THEN, you get the awesome team coordination with her ult and the passive from her w, which gives you strong but unwieldy harass potential. Past that the rest of her kit is just decent. She doesn't really have a weak spot, but her baselines are slightly less than, say, Graves.

All of the advice and testimony above is based on one simple guideline though: Kalista NEVER GO INTO SOLO QUEUE AS KALISTA. Get a friend to support you and to coordinate via voice chat.

Gallowgrim2 votes

I actually am not that fond of her Ult overall (not against it either), and mediocre at her passive...

..but I swear, Rend is one of the best damn feelings in the League.

Kingsgrave4 votes

As soon as she buys Hurricane she becomes impossible for anyone melee or otherwise to deal with. I feel like her early game should be horrendous to make up for it.

Maybe reduce her AA range? Maybe reduce her base AS? Reduce her ability to deal high damage to monsters tho that shit is insane

Gallowgrim4 votes

..her early game is kinda horrendous - no AoE, average poke at best, rather fragile...

Junkο1 votes

Her AA is already one of the lowest among ADCs Her AS is already abyssal, that's why you rush Hurricane (aside the awesome synergy with E) I do agree her E needs to have a cap against at least Dragon and Baron, at 20+ stacks (not hard to get) it becomes impossible to get "outsmited" because it deals way more damage.

manbearswine3 votes

I disagree,passive is cancer,rest of kit is fine.

Jacky Shen3 votes

{quoted}

  • Playing AGAINST Kalista: Yeah um...if you're melee and don't have a gap-closer or some point and click hard CC, you're focked. I don't want to come off as one of those "durr ADC's are OP cuz they're ranged!" guys, but seriously, this is when Warden Mail's pre-nerfed form would have been an absolute necessity.

You mean you can't walk up to a ranged champion as a melee champion and just punch them to death with your big fists, using no thought, and nothing but your sheer will without using a gap closer or CC? You mean how it's -supposed- to be?

5G8Nri0B543 votes

Garen : Exactly how it's supposed to be.

Stephenizgod2 votes

Uh no Ranged already has the advantage over Melee 98% of the time (that 2% is for when you use gap closer or CC to catch them), we dont need a Ranged champion immune to slows and gap closers, thats taking it a step too far... Its already a problem when Ranged champions are taken top. Luckily she doesnt work so well Top lane because her early game is kind of bad, specially without her bonus damage from the Oathsworn.

Remlap12232 votes

Kalista is a champion that I think could be very healthy and game changing, but her kit in its current state will always been either overpowered or underpowered, and never truly balanced. Mostly it has to do with her passive and W. I like everything else about her kit, but her passive needs a gate on it, and that W passive has got to go.

straight4free2 votes

You seem to have a lot of problems with a lot of champions, I think that the common denominator is you.

You're asking for an entire rework on a new champion. What else is new.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

common denominator

You use that expression, but I'm not sure if you really know what it means...

straight4free7 votes

{quoted}

You use that expression, but I'm not sure if you really know what it means...

Noun 1. common denominator - an integer that is a common multiple of the denominators of two or more fractions denominator 2. common denominator - an attribute that is common to all members of a category

See, you are the attribute common to all members of the category: you play these champions, and you decide that they need to be reworked.

You are common to all of these champions.

You are wrong.

Have a nice day!

WeedTits1 votes

{quoted}

Noun 1. common denominator - an integer that is a common multiple of the denominators of two or more fractions denominator 2. common denominator - an attribute that is common to all members of a category

See, you are the attribute common to all members of the category: you play these champions, and you decide that they need to be reworked.

You are common to all of these champions.

You are wrong.

Have a nice day!

Look at this douchebag. -.-

CIit Yeastwood3 votes

Look at the douchebag that acted like he knew what "common denominator" meant, but really didn't know.

Sorry that you don't like it when stuck up's get corrected.

Oleandervine2 votes

Kalista's ult is pretty bad. It's not so much a ult as the quickest way to disorient other players and have the potential to be trolled super hard. Her ult deals no damage, it may save an ally, but I've heard far more stories where an ally gets pissed because you've interrupted them; Furthermore, a skill like her ult practically requires voice chat, and in a game of random matchups, it's virtually impossible to effectively communicate when and how you need to ult. You often times ult and the ally ends up shoot in a weird direction because they were mid click on something and you've now wasted it. The sentiment of having a teamwork oriented champ is appreciated, but in reality, it really was poorly executed with Kalista. She needs a new ult, and she needs some rebalancing. I believe there is a way to engineer a teamwork oriented champion without resorting to absorbing your allies. Hell, I have an idea that would be really fun. Just let it be that she and/or her ally get some sort of passive boost. When she activates, make it so she can auto attack through her soul bound, similar to how Lulu can Glitterlance through a character with Pix on them.

Sir Fuzzi3 votes

Kalista's ult does not need to do damage or anything dumb like that. Just because an ult isn't a nuke + stun with all-range, doesn't make it bad.

Kalista is in the fight. She's doing damage, dodging things, the usual fare. The teamfight begins. Out of nowhere, Galio. In the middle of them all. And hey, that knockup?

That's just enough time to prevent anyone CCing or flashing out of his ult...

Kalista's ult requires-- but, subsequently, rewards-- higher levels of teamplay. A lot of her potential rests in her Oathsworn's abilities, and as a result she's sort of only shining at her best with certain combinations-- for instance, there's not a lot she's going to do with Soraka. But giving Leona a free engage and an extra spot of CC is not a small matter.

It may not be instantly gamechanging in itself, but the gamechanging it can add to other ults-- and even skills-- should probably not be underplayed as 'pretty bad.'

Matezoide2 votes

There is no reason you cant refuse her spear.

Fuck Riot.

Spookzie2 votes

Yea, i think she's at a good spot right now. i play her now and again and she really does require some type of voice chat with her support to reach her full potential. I dont see why that is a problem. I watch enjoy spectating games, and the most enjoyable ones are the ones with kalista. The amount of surprising plays with her ult is really impressive.

It just seems like you've had bad seeds in your games and really, you'll have them regardless of what champion they play.

Oleandervine2 votes

{quoted}

Yea, i think she's at a good spot right now. i play her now and again and she really does require some type of voice chat with her support to reach her full potential. I dont see why that is a problem. I watch enjoy spectating games, and the most enjoyable ones are the ones with kalista. The amount of surprising plays with her ult is really impressive.

It just seems like you've had bad seeds in your games and really, you'll have them regardless of what champion they play.

How does a skill that practically requires voice chat to operate ring as OK to you? Sure, in matches with friends you can do just fine, but most of the games you play are going to be with random players, and its pretty impossible to ensure they have voice chat so you can play Kalista.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

I recently saw a Kalista use her Oathsworn binding ability on her support... while in my team's jungle, and he died because we were able to focus him during the death animation. It was incredibly trolly.

Vesarixx2 votes

And all the ADC in the thread were like "You can grab the lantern?"

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

there are also use/abuse cases with teleport. if kalista teleports she pulls her ally across the map with her. if she ults a sion while he's channeling his ult he will end his ult and then be pulled halfway across the map to where she is. etc...

It Hertz When IP1 votes

{quoted}

there are also use/abuse cases with teleport. if kalista teleports she pulls her ally across the map with her. if she ults a sion while he's channeling his ult he will end his ult and then be pulled halfway across the map to where she is. etc...

Nope. They fixed that.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

i saw the teleport trick used a few days ago... source?

Kaipop1 votes

{quoted}

there are also use/abuse cases with teleport. if kalista teleports she pulls her ally across the map with her. if she ults a sion while he's channeling his ult he will end his ult and then be pulled halfway across the map to where she is. etc...

that requires her to bring tp lol

Silents4291 votes

Why? Same guy made her that made Yasuo, Darius, And thresh. They will gut her, rework something on her, and then end up just ignoring her.

I wanted a new haunted adc person and then I saw her, then I saw her abilities and cried, because those abilities sucked.

Gallowgrim1 votes

Just leave Rend alone.

Silents4291 votes

Constructive criticism time, this person makes champions with kits that are bloated and near impossible to balance without having to rework part of the champion, its the history of all of his champions. The only champion that I have witnessed so far that has been balanced and untouched since release is Vel Koz.

Arkna1 votes

I agree with you on playing against her, but all of the issues you raised about playing with/as her can be solved by duoing with a friend.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

So she is a terrible choice of a champion unless you specifically duoQ...that's...good design.

Not just that, this only bandaids playing AS Kalista. All the issues with playing WITH her are still unavoidable unless you feel like losing some MMR.

Quort1 votes

As someone who plays a lot of Support, even if you tell me where YOU want me to go with your Fate's Call, I may not agree with you and choose the safer option of retreating, especially if there was a lack of communication beforehand (excluding obvious instances where sacrificing myself is necessary to peel for the ADC).

ComeOnAndSlamJam1 votes

In the rare event I end up with a kallista, I just pick the fanciest support I can and hope for the best.

ImHerVoice1 votes

lmfao IKR I tried playing her an im like "I can't auto cancel...Ok.. I'm done..." LOL and then I play against a hurricane killista top. I'm level 3 ganking . BOOM SHE GETS A DOUBLE KILL skafdhuygiorst I Dont even know what happened LOL

Junkο1 votes

As somebody who plays Kalista, i agree with every single one of your points. The only time i play her now is with friends on teamspeak because all other times i'm risking being useless while also making somebodys else game miserable.

I do think Warden hurts her more than you think... well will until the new attack move comes out because she will never attack you after.

St0rmln1 votes

Upvoted

Sooko1 votes

{quoted}

You've created a champion who I hate playing as, who I hate playing against, and whom I hate having as an ally.

I've had that feeling before... Yorick Teemo

But Kalista's leash on the support is definitely something I thought was forbidden to happen in a MOBA.

Seviang1 votes

Yea she's a design nightmare simply because she removes a lot of decision making from herself or her allies depending on the situation. Without voice communication it's impossible to get the full potential of her kit, and even then that's a massive amount of effort for that power. Considering how many other ADCs there are that do similar things with much more accessible power in their kit, there's really no reason to play Kalista from a competitive standpoint.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I'm going to agree with you, and disagree with you.

{quoted}

  • Playing AS Kalista: [...] That really sucks when no matter how hard you try to communicate, that just don't do as they're told.

This is pretty fine, IMO. You don't have the authority to order your support, or anybody, to do anything in this game. You shouldn't, for that matter. If you could order them, that's a loss of agency, for your ally, and that's even less fun than live functionality.

  • Playing WITH Kalista: Take the above perspective and reverse it. I can choose where to go after she sucked me in, BUT I CAN NOT CHOOSE WHEN she sucks me! [...] nothing pisses me off more than the jarring camera shift towards Kalista and see my combo being disrupted.

Agreed on both counts. I'd really like to see them make Kali's ult more like thresh's lantern. Have her throw down her spear, and (like the lantern), the oathsworn can click on it (or click on Kali, or whatever) to enter her ult, then throw themselves. Agency has been restored to the oathsworn.

I'll even preempt anyone's comment of "but now it takes too long from when kali presses R to when you actually knock them up." Right now, there's a delay between when Kali presses R and when the oathsworn can shoot out. This exists so that they don't accidentally click the wrong spot, thinking their moving around -- ie, it's a band-aid fix for the issue of "I didn't expect / wasn't ready to be ulted." If the oathsworn has to click on a spear to join Kali, there doesn't need to be any delay before they can shoot out.

SECONDLY, the oath is terribly designed! The stupid "oath animation" is disruptive as hell. If the Kalista player for whatever reason decide to do it in lane, and it happens more often than I hoped already, you're focked because of how LONG it is and how it just gives your opponents the chance to prepare a trap.

I think this issue is really just a symptom of...

Secondly.................................where's the "reject" button? What if I don't want to become your bitch?

I see this as a necessity. A squishy support may not want to be bonded. I shouldn't be forced to be.

And thirdly, this has nothing to do with Agency, but...

  • Playing AGAINST Kalista: Yeah um...if you're melee and don't have a gap-closer or some point and click hard CC, you're focked. I don't want to come off as one of those "durr ADC's are OP cuz they're ranged!" guys, but seriously, this is when Warden Mail's pre-nerfed form would have been an absolute necessity.

Can we also talk about hitting her with skillshots? LOL

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