Its time for resolve to have a 4th keystone...

GigglesO·Jun 1, 2018·13 votes·8,177 views

For those slow melee champs that can't utilize Grasp well, or even use aftershock... Sure I can use guardian, but Its not the best choice...

44 Comments

Step Sis LuxJun 1, 201810 votes

its time for sorcerery now

GigglesOJun 1, 20183 votes

How about a double hitter? One for each.

JbelsJun 1, 20186 votes

Oh boy, I can't wait for slow melee champions to get a buff and for more people to shout that tanks need to be nerfed as a result

GigglesOJun 1, 20185 votes

Because you know kiting and cc doesn't work on slow melee champs...

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Velzard of KozJun 1, 20181 votes

Because all champs are ranged and have slow.

ZackTheWaffleManJun 1, 20181 votes

Not all slow melee champs are tanks.

GhaelWindsJun 1, 20186 votes

What slow melee can't utilize grasp well?

Velzard of KozJun 1, 20181 votes

He's a Morde main. So he means Morde.

GigglesOJun 2, 20181 votes

All of them, because fights don't really last 4 seconds... if you are slow and melee you either just kill them or die...

BobaFlautistJun 1, 20185 votes

Or even just 1 with decent uptime, scaling, trading, and general useablility.

You know, like 90% of other keystones?

Seriously, why are resolve's keystones by far the narrowest, it's such a pain.

GigglesOJun 2, 20181 votes

Idk its like they refuse to have tanky champs that aren't just cc whores.

DuskDaUmbreonJun 1, 20183 votes

As keystone options you have:

Fleet Footwork Phase Rush Grasp (lmao don't tell me you can't use it as a slow melee) Predator Unsealed Spellbook (For Ghost)

Lesser rune options: Approach Velocity Celerity Relentless hunter

Don't pretend you don't have options. And don't cry just because you can't primary Resolve and get a lot of speed.

Yets4240Jun 1, 20184 votes

Right, so what should my boys Gragas, Malphite, Galio and Urgot go to for runes?

I just love ulting in with my only hard CC as Malphite just for 80% of the duration of Aftershock to wear off before they can even move, and not being able to use literally any other rune effectively.

Urgot's got. . . comet? Sort of? With no skill that reduces its cooldown or any synergy with it.

Gragas resorts to running electrocute cause at least some extra damage is useful when you all in, when every other runes is shit.

Galio doesn't build in a way, nor have the skills to facilitate using comet or aftershock, yet his player base is largely divided over failing at one or the other.

DuskDaUmbreonJun 1, 20182 votes

Urgot can use ~~Grasp or Aftershock.~~ Edit: I'm blind and tired. Thought Urgot was Sion. Urgot can use Comet kinda, but can also use Press the Attack and Grasp just fine. I believe he also can use Glacial Augment.

Malphite can use Aftershock.

Gragas can use Aftershock

Galio can use Comet or Aftershock just fine.

Yets4240Jun 1, 20183 votes

So, did you even read what I wrote, or look up their winrates with the runes you said are "just fine" on them? I'd hardly call in some cases sub 45% winrates "just fine" lmao.

DuskDaUmbreonJun 1, 20182 votes

I did read it. People are just stupid with things.

Also compare it to their actual win rates. As far as I'm aware, none of those have a positive winrate anyways.

Yets4240Jun 2, 20183 votes

Urgot, Malphite are right at 50%, Gragas is a tad lower, and Galio is the only one really hurting. Still, there are runes which are comparatively better than others for almost all champions. For these guys, no rune is good, they all suck equally--which is a large part of why they are under performing compared to champions who can better utilize these runes.

SanKakUJun 1, 20182 votes

Malphite's pretty good with grasp because he steals movement speed and his passive is based on his max HP. But you have a good point that Aftershock doesn't feel good on many tanks. I haven't played Gragas since before the rune rework, probably should though, and anyway with his low cooldown jump he should be able to get decent value out of Grasp.

No comment on Urgot. Galio is an abomination so I would be fine with him never having a decent keystone unless his rework was reverted.

GigglesOJun 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Grasp (lmao don't tell me you can't use it as a slow melee)

So how do you run up to someone to use grasp as a slow melee?

DuskDaUmbreonJun 2, 20181 votes

You use it against them in lane, when their options to avoid interacting with you are basically 0 unless they're Heimer or Morgana.

In later game, use your CC (every slow melee should have some by the time late game rolls around - the only slow melee with no CC I can think of is Morde, and Rylai's is core on him anyways) to stick to them as you use it, or get your team to work with you.

And, besides, if you're not in a position to use Grasp as any champion that would ever use Grasp, you aren't useful anyways, so your keystone options are irrelevant.

GigglesOJun 3, 20181 votes

So, they don't avoid interacting with you... they just poke you down before you touch them.

"Get your team to work with you"

Guys can you keep me alive long enough to get me in range of my grasp proc, We will win, I assure you....

Yea right.

Meep ManJun 2, 20183 votes

I wish we had a Pure Defensive keystone that was for Solo Lane champions. Aftershock pretty meh and requires certain aspects from your kit.

GigglesOJun 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Emperor Churger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vJtUILhJ,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-06-02T01:13:07.100+0000)

I wish we had a Pure Defensive keystone that was for Solo Lane champions. Aftershock pretty meh and requires certain aspects from your kit.

I agree with this statement, I really want to be able to just walk into a solo lane and have a defense option when I can't use aftershock.

BjørnetjenestenJun 1, 20182 votes

All true "tanks" have lots of cc, which means aftershock is perfectly viable. Juggernauts have grasp, phase rush and conqueror. I dont get what the resolve tree need more than it already has?

Yets4240Jun 1, 20186 votes

What about someone like Urgot? Can't use any of those well, and doesn't have a keystone, or itemization that fits him.

What about Malphite, or tanks who's only hard CC is their ultimate? Do they just not have a keystone in lane, and only a keystone every 2-3 minutes for a few seconds?

Mundo Jungle? he's currently basically pigeon-holed into grasps, but unless he's top lane he can't make good use of it, so some use FF instead, which has a notably lower winrate on him as he simply doesn't use it as effectively.

Galio? He sort of uses aftershock, and sort of uses comet, but doesn't effectively use either, as he doesn't build the resistances aftershock scales with and all but requires, and comet is just kinda the least bad option remaining.

Gragas? The fucker's best rune is electrocute. . . that should speak volumes to you about how shitty keystones are on him.

Basically, unless you are someone who is a lane bully who likes extended melee trades and can use grasps/conqueror, you have aftershock provided you have hard CC. If you don't have reliable hard CC, or you don't have an all-in play pattern after landing your CC, then you really don't have a rune for you.

Would a sustain keystone, or one that just makes you harder to kill without being tied to hard CC/healing allies, really be that problematic if we made itpotentially lower attack speed/damage in some way as to keep assassins and ADCs from abusing it? (without trying to rely on melee only which would just serve to fuck our poor boy Urgot even fucking more than that system already rails him.)

BjørnetjenestenJun 1, 20184 votes

Problem is if you remove the requirement for hard cc, it will make lots of abuse cases, where hypercarries start taking it and sort of becomes ranged juggernauts or imagine yasuo with insane tankyness and same dmg. You need to shrink the group down by finding common traits in that class, which is cc and max hp scaling. I dont know if there is anything else they have in common, but differs from other classes like mages or juggernauts.

Also the champs you mention are special cases with lots of ranged poke, which means they probably would take comet and do just fine. (not that this is a good thing). I think urgot just need to be reclassified as melee or have a passive that opens melee items up for him, its actually that simple.. but riot wont do it.

Yets4240Jun 2, 20182 votes

For comet you need spamable, reliable single target spells to make the most use out of it, and none of the champions listed but Mundo (who doesn't synergize well with Sorcery as a primary tree for other reason) have single target spells they can use to lower the CD.

Tanks want resists, HP is firmly a juggernaut and diver stat-- at least, RIOTs previous reworks and items changes made it that way. You have TBC, TH, SG all as HP + AD items that just so happen to be most juggernauts core or parts of it. Throw in Triforce to a lesser extent, and now we have Atmas for even more HP + AD synergy.

Tanks used to have hp regen as a stat but. . . its kinda gone by the way side outside of runes sustaining you for free through laning. Teamfights happen too quickly, and damage is far too high for any regen but warmogs to be meaningful, and that itself required you leave a teamfight for a good 30 second to heal to full.

If you want commonalities look at play patterns rather than itemization choices or stats in and of themselves. A commonality would be having a way to guarantee your way in, so you either can't be peeled immediately/before you get there or a way to avoid getting CC chained as you generally have to be in range of everyone else's shit for all but your ultimate with these types of characters. Think about GSP. Just make sure the rune has a minus AS/AD/AP/%damage etc effect so that adcs and assassins don't want it, and couldn't abuse it, but let some of these champions into teamfights without getting instantly locked down and blown up.

Or maybe something that decreases your AS/AD/AP/%damage, and gives you a slight stacking ms buff for walking towards enemy champions (within a somewhat limited range. Probably 700-1000ish?) after a certain time/distance makes you immune to displacements? Maybe even scale the malus equally to the stacking speed so champs like Hec couldn't abuse it, and you couldn't simply run people down. Maybe have it be disabled for a few seconds if you've been hard CCed lately so you could peel for allies with stuns and roots-- but these could be mitigated by tenacity, so there would be multiple layers of counter building and or interaction points.

GigglesOJun 2, 20181 votes

"melee only" or ranged gets 50%...

GigglesOJun 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Basically, unless you are someone who is a lane bully who likes extended melee trades and can use grasps/conqueror, you have aftershock provided you have hard CC. If you don't have reliable hard CC, or you don't have an all-in play pattern after landing your CC, then you really don't have a rune for you.

Even if you are a lane bully, if you aren't ranged you don't get to use grasp... not every champ can abuse aftershock either.

GigglesOJun 2, 20181 votes

How the fuck are your fights as a non-tank lasting more than 4 seconds? (So that you can use grasp)

flibitydooJun 2, 20182 votes

Aftershock is horrible on two of the tanks I play: Poppy and Sion.

For Poppy, it's an issue of "you don't really toss cc out there willy nilly". You want to save your E for the stun which means lining up your opponent to a wall which is something that isn't necessarily available in every engagement. Your W is just unreliable and depends on the enemy champ. Using your ult when it's your ult with a massive cooldown is just foolish.

Sion is an issue of "only one skill pre-6 triggers aftershock", and typically you aren't even close to your target when you use it. Your ult is a nice way to trigger aftershock but that's falling into the malphite aftershock conundrum of only being able to use aftershock reliably post 6 and on a minute+ cooldown ultimate.

I've also recently been playing more Galio. It's bad on him too. It does nothing in lane because your opponents typically are mages who hang back and don't get near to be cc'd. Your primary tool is your Q, and every other part of your kit is too slow to reliably trigger it.

I've found for all 3 that grasp is much better. But Grasp isn't supposed to be the cc peel tank rune, and there's plenty of matchups where the rune gets little to no value.

Aftershock is just a poorly designed rune. It's as if the design team thought "man no one is playing Leona for like 3 seasons, let's make a rune around her and not consider any other champion". Then they nerfed Leona cause it turns out she was OP with that rune (big surprise) and now nearly every other tank in the game feels awful because there is no rune that they are happy and comfortable running. Personally I'd much rather just delete aftershock, undo any balance changes surrounding it and bring back courage of the colossus. Which was a much more healthier rune that didn't give invisible stats and made the game better by promoting champion diversity since many champs were viable and happy to use it.

Quiet DudeJun 1, 20182 votes

Give the fat boys of league a keystone that converts health into extra armor/MR

IfnethJun 2, 20181 votes

It would have to be interactive.

KeshaunJun 2, 20182 votes

It's time for the Resolve tree to remove second wind and replace it with something different or nothing at all. Pretty much every melee tank can utilize Grasp and half of that class can utilize Aftershock. I can't think of any melee tank who can't utilize both of those keystones.

GigglesOJun 2, 20181 votes

Mordekaiser

KeshaunJun 2, 20181 votes

Mordekaiser uses Aery really well? Able to shield himself and allies and abuse the Aery proc with his E. Every rune in the tree he can utilize also so idk why you feel the need the use Resolve tree as a primary for .

GigglesOJun 2, 20181 votes

Oh boy, one ability that actually doesn't even work that well because it gets tied up shielding or poking when you want the other.

He also does shit with the sorcery tree, what else is even good in that tree? Its honestly a shit tree.

Maybe I don't want anything in that shit tree. Just ask any mage main, the whole tree is trash.

Vlada CutJun 1, 20181 votes

Yes but the question is how to make a keystone for slow melee champions without making phase rush or glacial augment irrelevant.

Yets4240Jun 1, 20181 votes

Letting them survive getting to their target? Think a reverse Olaf ult where you lose AD/AS, but gain armor and magic resist and a temporary movement buff towards enemy champions? Maybe even have something like displacement immunity for a short period so that tenacity can actually apply to the CC they are affected by, but then increase the durations of non-displacements to make tenacity actually useful and a viable stat for once, as they would need it to offset the increased CC durations while immune to displacements?

Something like gain +50-100 armor + MR, lose 50-75 AD or .5AS/S, you are unaffected by knock ups/aside/backs/hooks/pulls/displacements, for the next 3 seconds but CC applied to you within this timeframe is increased by 20%-25%? Moving towards an enemy champion increases your movement speed by 10% per second during the duration, and fading over the next 1-1.5 seconds (giving a 10/20/30% speed up which then decays quickly)

Maybe call it "Momentum" or something similar.

GigglesOJun 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Letting them survive getting to their target? Think a reverse Olaf ult where you lose AD/AS, but gain armor and magic resist and a temporary movement buff towards enemy champions? Maybe even have something like displacement immunity for a short period so that tenacity can actually apply to the CC they are affected by, but then increase the durations of non-displacements to make tenacity actually useful and a viable stat for once, as they would need it to offset the increased CC durations while immune to displacements?

Something like gain +50-100 armor + MR, lose 50-75 AD or .5AS/S, you are unaffected by knock ups/aside/backs/hooks/pulls/displacements, for the next 3 seconds but CC applied to you within this timeframe is increased by 20%-25%? Moving towards an enemy champion increases your movement speed by 10% per second during the duration, and fading over the next 1-1.5 seconds (giving a 10/20/30% speed up which then decays quickly)

Maybe call it "Momentum" or something similar.

I like this... you could even make it a boots activate-able like predator.

Vlada CutJun 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Letting them survive getting to their target? Think a reverse Olaf ult where you lose AD/AS, but gain armor and magic resist and a temporary movement buff towards enemy champions? Maybe even have something like displacement immunity for a short period so that tenacity can actually apply to the CC they are affected by, but then increase the durations of non-displacements to make tenacity actually useful and a viable stat for once, as they would need it to offset the increased CC durations while immune to displacements?

Something like gain +50-100 armor + MR, lose 50-75 AD or .5AS/S, you are unaffected by knock ups/aside/backs/hooks/pulls/displacements, for the next 3 seconds but CC applied to you within this timeframe is increased by 20%-25%? Moving towards an enemy champion increases your movement speed by 10% per second during the duration, and fading over the next 1-1.5 seconds (giving a 10/20/30% speed up which then decays quickly)

Maybe call it "Momentum" or something similar.

Or make you LOSE armor/magic ressist to empower your next ability by a LOT. To make is different from aftershock that is. Empowering an abality through your armor/mr would make your one spell hit like a truck. Think about Sion smashing you with his axe because of how much of dmg spike such keystone would give him. Unlike aftershock which forces you to shove enemies right in your face...

Yets4240Jun 3, 20181 votes

See, I really, truly hate ideas like this because it is the literal antithesis of what not only the Resolve tree itself is for, but also for the fact that you are designing a rune that is the exact opposite of what the intended champions want or need, or even is their role in the game.

Tanks need keystones that make them tanky, that let them survive and sustain in fights, and that oh I don't know, literally based on the wording of Resolve tree itself, maybe there should be something that actually helps with lockdown and crowd control?

Rather than having several runes which do nothing at all to CC itself, nor make it easier to apply, but instead just give tanks (who am I kidding, non-tanks who abuse the resolve tree) damage for landing the CC which should already be rewarding because of its, y'know, Crowd Control, and not at all because of its damage output.

Vlada CutJun 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

See, I really, truly hate ideas like this because it is the literal antithesis of what not only the Resolve tree itself is for, but also for the fact that you are designing a rune that is the exact opposite of what the intended champions want or need, or even is their role in the game.

Tanks need keystones that make them tanky, that let them survive and sustain in fights, and that oh I don't know, literally based on the wording of Resolve tree itself, maybe there should be something that actually helps with lockdown and crowd control?

Rather than having several runes which do nothing at all to CC itself, nor make it easier to apply, but instead just give tanks (who am I kidding, non-tanks who abuse the resolve tree) damage for landing the CC which should already be rewarding because of its, y'know, Crowd Control, and not at all because of its damage output.

And instead of flaming in your first sentence you could've read my post lol. I was talking about a keystone that would temporarely give damage like aftershick does. A damage that is bindable with their next cc spell.

Yets4240Jun 3, 20181 votes

I did read your post, but you evidently did not read mine. For the record, I hate the fact that the main part of aftershock is the damage that it deals and would happily see all of it removed for more power to the resists it grants, and an increased duration thereof.

Empowering CC should be about making the crowd control itself actually in some way empowered, y'know? The damage is utterly and entirely irrelevant, and making CCs do more damage isn't empowering the CC, its just adding free damage for no reason.