New Mechanics to Protect Tanks: True Armor and Crit Protection

Slushi Simcambi·Dec 21, 2014·23 votes·2,592 views

So most people around here (myself included) feel that full tank build champions are really struggling right now due to late game Marksman being able to totally wreck tanks no matter how much armor/health one builds.

I suggest that one, or both, of these are implemented in order to protect tanks in the future.

True Armor: Plain and Simple, immune to armor penetration. That's right folks. Of course they could implement true MR if they wanted, but lets save that for later. This would be a way to counter those pesky Marksman who build Last Whisper all the time and nullify your purchases. Slapping this onto an item (say it transforms 20% of your armor into True Armor) could go a long way in helping tanks. Or, and this way could be more balanced, you could slowly amass true armor (+10-30) with the completion of full tank items. That way only those comitted to the tank route could get enough for it to be useful in fights, cutting out bruisers.

Crit Protection: pretty simple concept, instead of removing crits from the game, perhaps make an item that nullifies critical hits (to a degree) or weakens the effect of critical hits.

Lastly, perhaps if these two effects are too strong together, Riot could design a branching item that allows Tanks to opt for only one of these items, preventing bruisers from becoming unkillable gods.

I'm silver and I suck, so these ideas might be dumb, but I thought I'd try and contribute something. (Also on my phone, please ignore typos)

90 Comments

SeCKS EgaiDec 21, 20148 votes

I wouldn't like the idea of true armor or mr - goes against the existence of true damage.

Crit damage reduction currently exists - but only through masteries afaik.

Survivability definitely needs to be addressed tho - whether it be through a crit damage rework (or replacement really) or readjustment of penetration now that there's plenty of data.

Slushi SimcambiDec 21, 20145 votes

[{quoted}](name=SeCKS Egai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vI4jJne5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2014-12-21T15:03:39.737+0000)

I wouldn't like the idea of true armor or mr - goes against the existence of true damage.

Crit damage reduction currently exists - but only through masteries afaik.

Survivability definitely needs to be addressed tho - whether it be through a crit damage rework (or replacement really) or readjustment of penetration now that there's plenty of data.

Well, why should Marksman get true damage and Tanks not get an inversely useful ability?

Maybe instead one being a percentage based thing, we could get true armor in little amounts (like +20-30 true armor with each completed tank build item) that way you really have to commit to the tank route to amass true armor?

NarasimhaDec 21, 20145 votes

why should Marksman get true damage

Where the hell do adcs get true damage? Other than Twich, anyway? Edit: I knew I forget some guys. Bleh, this is hat I get for talking with no coffee in me.

JustMyBassCannonDec 21, 20144 votes

Well, there are actually a few marksmen who get True Damage (Corki and Vayne). That said, their physical damage never hits True Damage levels.

Knight SoIaire Dec 22, 20141 votes

he didnt mean it that way he meant that there is no real way to reduuce the damage adc's deal because last whisper is in every game

and some even have botrk so whatever you build adc can always shred you even if you have thornmail (then adc will die but hell still hurt you like a truck)

Slushi SimcambiDec 22, 20141 votes

This, I didn't mean "true damage", that was a typo on my part.

I meant penetration in general.

Knight SoIaire Dec 22, 20141 votes

depends on the numbers atm penetration is usefull but tanks arent even worth picking becauuse items that remove them get bought every game

SeCKS EgaiDec 21, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slushi Simcambi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vI4jJne5,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2014-12-21T15:07:57.529+0000)

Well, why should Marksman get true damage and Tanks not get an inversely useful ability?

Maybe instead one being a percentage based thing, we could get true armor in little amounts (like +20-30 true armor with each completed tank build item) that way you really have to commit to the tank route to amass true armor?

True damage isn't just a marksman thing, even smite can deal true damage now.

True armor would be counter-productive, particularly when it comes to percentage penetration.

If anything tanks aren't so tanky because of a multitude of changes. You also have to consider the impact said def items have on "non-tanks" which is probably what's convoluted the balancing of it all anyway.

Adcs are expected to melt tanks at the cost of being pretty damn vulnerable to a melee assault. With all the champs with gap closers now, in order for the adcs to do their job they require team support or to be insanely fed over the enemies.

Damage as a whole is basically scaling better than defense, so unless you're dealing with a Vayne or maybe Kog, the likelihood of seeing a tank melt isn't really just the adc, but moreso they just take a lot more damage period. In other words, you're better off with solid initiation/cc and damage output over trying to tank 5 people for several seconds. To keep the bruisers from completely dominating ala league of warmogs, def has taken hits which in turn seem to pretty much screw the dedicated tanks.

Technically Vayne can hit well over 200 true damage - so hitting a Vayne's actual attack damage is actually possible unless you're counting crits and damage output instead (since true doesn't crit).

Right now I think its pretty much a balancing nightmare with the jungle changes.

Since a lot of folks are wanting to see the rng factor in criticals removed altogether - I would much rather prefer that system get designed and implemented before doing any heavy armor/mag res adjustments.

DryditchDec 21, 20141 votes

He did consider the effect on non-tanks as well, which is why OP included the concept of it building up based on completed tank items.

I'd actually argue that this should be a mastery, so it's something you have to commit to before the game even starts.

True armor or mr would allow tanks to feel useful again, since the existence of Last Whisper/Void Staff couldn't completely nullify two or three of their full-build items.

SeCKS EgaiDec 21, 20142 votes

{quoted}

He did consider the effect on non-tanks as well, which is why OP included the concept of it building up based on completed tank items.

I'd actually argue that this should be a mastery, so it's something you have to commit to before the game even starts.

True armor or mr would allow tanks to feel useful again, since the existence of Last Whisper/Void Staff couldn't completely nullify two or three of their full-build items.

Considering the penetration formula - I would expect true armor to cause problems in calculations - that and it takes away value in true damage which already has limited sources as is.

Buffing the resistance to crit strikes in the mastery page would make more sense to me than complicating things with true armor.

DryditchDec 21, 20142 votes

Let true damage through--true armor is just non-reducible. If true damage strikes for X, regardless of armor, then true armor won't matter.

True armor is just there to provide some extra damage mitigation and let a tank survive for more than half a second once they initiate.

SeCKS EgaiDec 21, 20142 votes

{quoted}

Let true damage through--true armor is just non-reducible. If true damage strikes for X, regardless of armor, then true armor won't matter.

True armor is just there to provide some extra damage mitigation and let a tank survive for more than half a second once they initiate.

A much simpler adjustment would be to revert the penetration order.

I would say the reasons bruisers/fighters have basically taken over is that generally speaking, a "dedicated" tank is a lot easier to ignore, versus someone like Vi who can dive your key teammates, or the fact that mobile assassins can move past them often ignoring them completely.

One of the issues I had wtih Ram before all the changes has been the fact that he's effectively relying on allies to secure kills. Say he's alone in the jungle - he can't actually fight 1v1 with most if not all his likely opponents. On the other hand, Lee can fight or escape as needed.

With that said, giving tanks better survivability tends to do more for the bruisers that deal notable damage compared to the dedicated tanks expected to soak up damage.

DryditchDec 21, 20141 votes

Oh, hey look! We actually agree!

I feel like tanks should have some ability to be an impassable wall for at least long enough to make a difference. Otherwise they just kinda suck... like they do now.

SeCKS EgaiDec 21, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Oh, hey look! We actually agree!

I feel like tanks should have some ability to be an impassable wall for at least long enough to make a difference. Otherwise they just kinda suck... like they do now.

Not quite.

I will wholeheartedly state that I don't believe mitigation is up to par anymore.

But while the dynamic has changed and I don't see "true armor" doing anything beneficial. The biggest issue is all of the champions that have come since tanks were a regular thing. There are too many mobile champs that deal solid damage to simply "tank n spank". Boost tank mitigation, you only end up making the fighters/bruisers stronger - still preventing tanks from any major relevance.

I tend to miss the days when not everyone in heavy rotation had a built in dash (or two).

DryditchDec 21, 20142 votes

My bad. I forgot I hadn't outlined my entire philosophy of tanks v bruisers in this thread.

I'm in agreement with you about quite literally everything you say there. Mobile champions should be glass cannons, while tanks should be slow, lumbering, but you should want to run once they get close,or just stop them before they get to you.

Bruisers are a bastard class that shouldn't be able to exist. Fighters are fine as they are (and I have actually switched over to maining lifesteal junglers for the very reason that they do a better job of staying alive than do tanks--which is a problem).

In all honesty, I think dashes should be reserved for ultimates if a champion is meant to do serious damage (See Nocturne for well-executed character design).

SeCKS EgaiDec 21, 20141 votes

{quoted}

My bad. I forgot I hadn't outlined my entire philosophy of tanks v bruisers in this thread.

I'm in agreement with you about quite literally everything you say there. Mobile champions should be glass cannons, while tanks should be slow, lumbering, but you should want to run once they get close,or just stop them before they get to you.

Bruisers are a bastard class that shouldn't be able to exist. Fighters are fine as they are (and I have actually switched over to maining lifesteal junglers for the very reason that they do a better job of staying alive than do tanks--which is a problem).

In all honesty, I think dashes should be reserved for ultimates if a champion is meant to do serious damage (See Nocturne for well-executed character design).

I don't mind the idea of a bruiser - I just can't believe how many have basically come with at least one dash. Someone who sacrifices some def for added offensive potential, great. Someone who ends up outclassing and practically negating the use of traditional tanks, not so much.

However, I can admit that Vi having 2 potential dashes did appeal to me, but it was her kit as a whole. Now a dash type ability is practically standard. Meanwhile, someone like Ram or Voli has to "walk" to his target.

DryditchDec 21, 20142 votes

Old Sion main. More recent Malphite main. I understand the pain of walking.

Bought Lee the other day to see what all the fuss was about... might actually refund him since he violates everything I stand for as a player.

There are very few champions who I think actually deserve dashes--usually explained by their lore or visual design.

Dashes are lazy kit development... they belong on very few champions.

Knight SoIaire Dec 22, 20143 votes

To keep the bruisers from completely dominating ala league of warmogs, def has taken hits which in turn seem to pretty much screw the dedicated tanks.

i would also like to add a problem which exists for even longer time that this one

tanks as a class were always intended to be guys who soak damage but dont deal it .. yet riot couldnt create champions who worked that way so they gave them cc and good base damage to be actualy uusefull

now as we enter the bright age where riot goes ham on champion design they already sstated that they want to make tanks fit their intended role better so they gave us braum

as far as ballance goes i think that tanks need a rework not the tank itemization ... most of our tanks works only when chasing/cc'ing enemy adc, peeling or becomes a threat that has to be killed swiftly ... which is what bruisers (chasing and being a threat) and supports (peeling and ccing) do

personaly i await the glorious times where tanks work because they can wreck the meta

Gandr AdderbaneDec 22, 20141 votes

The problem with soaking damage but not dealing it is that the tank has to be threatening enough to the enemy to give them a reason to attack it. This problem is intrinsic to the tank role in any video game. Otherwise you've got a big block of health and armor that just gets ignored by the enemy team until the actually dangerous members are down. Thus cc and/or damage is necessary for their role.

Knight SoIaire Dec 22, 20141 votes

The problem with soaking damage but not dealing it is that the tank has to be threatening enough to the enemy to give them a reason to attack it.

thats not a problem of tanks anymore but a problem of riots champion desigh which wasnt capable of making such champions in the past

now riot got more creative and they have programmers who can put their imagination in game so all that is left to do is to rework the tanks with their actual role in mind

look at braum, our newest tank , he was riot's first take on modern tank who doesnt need to be a threat to get hit .. and he will probably be a role model for the rest (damage interception techniques will prolly be defining trait of our tanks)

soon we will se a rework of taric the gem knight who was always a tanky champion if riot sticks with him being a tank then im sure that we will se soome cool mechanic that will make the dream work

to summarize : while your points are correct they dont aply to tanks but to realy tanky fighters, since riot wasnt able to produce a tank in the past they gave us such tanky fighters but they shall fix it and i think that it will happen soon tm

Kuroi86Dec 23, 20141 votes

now as we enter the bright age where riot goes ham on champion design they already sstated that they want to make tanks fit their intended role better so they gave us braum

Ug, I can still hear the people complaining about how he shouldn't be able to block so much for his team. I swear, any time Riot tries something new, there's always some people posting a thousand threads complaining that they just broke the game. >_

Knight SoIaire Dec 23, 20141 votes

that happens after every change riot does but braum is an actual tank who negates damage without dealing it

SeCKS EgaiDec 23, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Ug, I can still hear the people complaining about how he shouldn't be able to block so much for his team. I swear, any time Riot tries something new, there's always some people posting a thousand threads complaining that they just broke the game. >_

Very true, granted on release he was really strong being a tank that had ranged poke, a ranged slow, potential stun etc etc etc. Sure blocking a nami wave can completely change a teamfight, but positioning and having the shield up to block it at the right time isn't easy.

Lord DusteonDec 21, 20146 votes

First, last whisper doesn't nullify your purchases, it makes them less efficient. Last Whisper NULLIFYING would be if it had 100% armor penetration; it does not, having 35%. Building health and armor is still the counter to last whisper, just armor becomes less efficient if they have it.

Second, we already have a protection against critical strikes. We call it armor.

DryditchDec 21, 20144 votes

You seriously misunderstand. Last Whisper (against full build tanks) ignores X amount of armor, sometimes equal to the amount of armor gained by one, two, or three items in your build--nullifying them.

JustMyBassCannonDec 21, 20142 votes

Maybe they shouldn't make such sweeping statements as "nullify your purchases" if it doesn't actually nullify more than one and a half in most real scenarios.
You seem to forget that base Armor exists in a range of about 65-97. You could simply look at it as negating your innate Armor instead of your purchases from the range of 187-276 Armor, depending on your base, if that makes you feel better.

DryditchDec 21, 20143 votes

Base armor should not be reducible except in very niche areas.

It's just bad game design...which unfortunately seems to be the case with a lot of decisions Riot has made recently.

The game's still fun, but they have some definite problems to work out.

If you're going to prescribe base armor and then have it be reducible, it should be only on certain champions (the tanks). If you're going to give unreducible base armor, it's OK to have it on all champions because it provides a level of protection against early game basic attacks.

In either case, one item negating two/three others (or the equivalent value), is absolutely bad game design.

JustMyBassCannonDec 21, 20141 votes

{quoted}

In either case, one item negating two/three others (or the equivalent value), is absolutely bad game design.

You're right, they should remove Thornmail--wait, no, that's a red herring. A point to make, but still a red herring.

Let me make a more fair point. Last Whisper is actually incapable of negating more than 2 Armor items, unless two of your Armor items provide less than 50 Armor. If every single item in your Inventory is Thornmail/Frozen Heart, Last Whisper still can't negate more than 250 without some ridiculous, extenuating circumstances.

Last Whisper, in real scenarios, negates about one and a half Armor items, two and a quarter if you're holding Ninja Tabi (the lowest Armor item besides Cloth), or your base Armor, depending on your perspective.

DryditchDec 21, 20142 votes

You're just about right, but here's the thing.

As a tank, items I build should be meant to mitigate the damage I'm taking, so I can better serve my team.

If you, as an ADC, can buy an item that completely ignores pieces of my build, then I am always on the back foot, and that makes a tank feel useless.

The problem with armor mitigation items (instead of having ADCs build items that can ramp up their damage exponentially--like they normally do) is that an ADC can just go ahead and deal 5-shot kills to the one champion on the opposing team who's supposed to be able to survive them.

And yes, Ninja Tabi are most likely going to be the boots I pick up, since I need boots and I scale well with armor, so there goes about 600 gold from my build, in addition to whatever else you're negating (let's say it's Frozen Heart, and the passive doesn't really matter thanks to your insane AS) thanks to 2300 gold from yours.

700 gold benefit to you.

SeCKS EgaiDec 21, 20141 votes

{quoted}

You're just about right, but here's the thing.

As a tank, items I build should be meant to mitigate the damage I'm taking, so I can better serve my team.

If you, as an ADC, can buy an item that completely ignores pieces of my build, then I am always on the back foot, and that makes a tank feel useless.

The problem with armor mitigation items (instead of having ADCs build items that can ramp up their damage exponentially--like they normally do) is that an ADC can just go ahead and deal 5-shot kills to the one champion on the opposing team who's supposed to be able to survive them.

And yes, Ninja Tabi are most likely going to be the boots I pick up, since I need boots and I scale well with armor, so there goes about 600 gold from my build, in addition to whatever else you're negating (let's say it's Frozen Heart, and the passive doesn't really matter thanks to your insane AS) thanks to 2300 gold from yours.

700 gold benefit to you.

But no items completely ignore defensive items that apply. A LW doesn't magically invalidate armor. Void staff doesn't whisk magic res away. It reduces it's effectiveness, but you're still getting benefit, just not the full benefit.

But why run a tank when a bruiser gets similar survival performance all the while doing enough damage to not be a major threat where the typical tank can basically be ignored once the cds are blown. That's what really keeps tanks out of the mix - they've been outclassed.

DryditchDec 21, 20142 votes

Aren't we having this conversation on another comment chain in this thread?

X amount reduction invalidates X amount resistance. If I'm building to counter you, you should not get to build to invalidate my counter. The rest of the team might be AP, so my armor is to stop you, the fed ADC.

JustMyBassCannonDec 21, 20141 votes

So, would you still be upset if Marksmen were able to rapidly kill tanks without ArPen?

Fun fact: ArPen is one of those power exponents. Would you rather they replaced it with a different damage multiplier that gives them the same damage output bonus, but doesn't say it's due to ignoring a percentage of your Armor?

AD scales on AD, AS, Crit and ArPen. They've got four damage multipliers. It's not at all surprising that they can eventually have an ungodly amount of DPS.

DryditchDec 21, 20146 votes

I would rather see an AD Deathcap than the current state of ArPen.

It's not that the tank dying quite so quickly is bad, it's that it feels awful for the player to know their hard-earned gold is made useless by itemization on the other team.

No tank can make an ADC deal zero damage, so why should an ADC make a tank resist zero damage?

Now... ideal situation? I'd like to see tanks be vulnerable to one character on the enemy team, and sort of shut out the rest (still take damage, but really have it reliant on one champion to take them down). A tank should not be as easy to kill as a squishy.

DragonSheaDec 22, 20144 votes

I Agree on the part where a tank should not be as easy to kill as a squishy. when you fight some one with alot for pen/true damage you still tend to dies as fast. if true armor is too OP then pen resistance would also be cool to see as you could still forfill your role as a tank without with an extra second to live with wouldn't matter since you is fast as a squishy when your are supposed to be a tank.

ZamiakeDec 22, 20142 votes

I agree that defence needs a major rework. Mainly because I top laned as a vlad against a sion recently and as we all know sion recently got buffed last i heard and vlad was last nerfed. And needless to say i was destroying the poor guy.

Im not sure if it was just because my experiance or my stats.

Masteries 3% life steal/spell vamp from masterys. Along with gold perks and movement speed. And hp and auto atk defence perks

Runes 2% spell vamp 21 Ap +18 hp regen at lvl 18 7.8 ap pen

I start out with 5% spell vamp. I also bust out tome as my first time and hp potions. Making my ap start out at 41. Thats pretty decent since i need no mana and sion does. I sit there shredding his hp forcing him out of lane repeatedly even when his jungler comes up i easily shrug them off and wait for wave to be pushed and regen.

After a while i got a kill or enough cs to go striaght to voids from my tome. Wasted no money and when i finally see sion get back to lane he had just bought a magic mantle. Felt bad for him knowing i just got void finished right before he just was able to get his first mr item. I completely shut him down by not allowing him to do anything at all. By the time laning phase ended i was probably 4 levels ahead of him and he was 2 behind most of his team

DryditchDec 22, 20141 votes

OK. Two things:

Thank you for recognizing this issue.
Sion's rework removed any chance of his winning lane against mobile opponents. He is also greatly countered by anything with range, as it takes time for his shield to come back up after it is popped.

That said,

A zoned Sion is a sad Sion, which is why he's really only viable in Jungle.

SeCKS EgaiDec 22, 20141 votes

{quoted}

I would rather see an AD Deathcap than the current state of ArPen.

It's not that the tank dying quite so quickly is bad, it's that it feels awful for the player to know their hard-earned gold is made useless by itemization on the other team.

No tank can make an ADC deal zero damage, so why should an ADC make a tank resist zero damage?

Now... ideal situation? I'd like to see tanks be vulnerable to one character on the enemy team, and sort of shut out the rest (still take damage, but really have it reliant on one champion to take them down). A tank should not be as easy to kill as a squishy.

ADCs can't make a tank resist 0 damage.

True damage ignores everything, that's not an adc specific stat and to believe so really shows a limit to your understanding. Even when procing the true damage on silver bolts, the rest the of damage of the auto still goes through armor. Every auto by corki still goes through armor. Unless there's a major disparity like a level 18 with nonstandard items with a heavy flat pen focus vs a level 1 tank with no items, you're not going to ever completely ignore defense.

Tanks don't really see play anymore, at least not compared to S1 and maybe S2 . The meta of the game has basically killed the idea of having dedicated tanks absorb "tons of damage". Fighters and bruisers can basically fill every role tanks did but instead of being easily ignored, do enough damage to remain a threat.

Until you address that you're not going to get to see the old survivability tanks used to have.

You really need to lose this notion that LW negates your armor though. I don't build any flat armor pen as an adc so that negates the "flat pen order" issue. With masteries that means I can ignore 39%, so that's less than the original 40% LW was for the longest time on its own.

If an adc can get several free autos, you're bound to die unless you can burst them down, you know, like all the assassins and bruisers you see.

So to show just how weak your argument has been - if I play adc and never build pen outside of a LW, then it's impossible to negate your armor entirely. Sure, Vayne can have her true damage but she excels at solo target damage at the cost of a weak early game. Cait on the other hand can still wreck through a "tank" and has no "TRUE" damage. Trist can melt a tank without "TRUE" damage.

If you're going to complain about mechanics, you have to be able to look at a bigger picture. I'm not a tank or fighter main, but I've spent a decent amount of time both top and jungle across the seasons. While I'm annoyed at how dashes have become virtually standard, I don't ignore how that changes the dynamic just because it doesn't coincide with my personal design philosophy.

DryditchDec 22, 20142 votes

You totally misunderstood this situation.

An ADC can build items that reduce armor to negligible levels, which is the same as negating X amount of armor. It's not a notion, it's a truth.

Just like a tank can't make an ADC actually deal zero damage (even ignoring LW), an ADC can't actually make a tank lose all his resistances. What they can do is this: Buy Statikk Shyv, buy IE. Crits done. Buy LW.

The tank now must calculate how much extra armor he has to buy to stay in the same place, damage-wise.

See how that's not fair?

Also, any ADC melting a tank is ok-they're fed and have had the ability to outplay their lane opponents, earning them the gold to buy damage boost items.

The problem is this:

If ADCs can kill you as easily as they kill another ADC, you have wasted your gold, and are now useless.

SeCKS EgaiDec 22, 20141 votes

{quoted}

You totally misunderstood this situation.

An ADC can build items that reduce armor to negligible levels, which is the same as negating X amount of armor. It's not a notion, it's a truth.

Just like a tank can't make an ADC actually deal zero damage (even ignoring LW), an ADC can't actually make a tank lose all his resistances. What they can do is this: Buy Statikk Shyv, buy IE. Crits done. Buy LW.

The tank now must calculate how much extra armor he has to buy to stay in the same place, damage-wise.

See how that's not fair?

Also, any ADC melting a tank is ok-they're fed and have had the ability to outplay their lane opponents, earning them the gold to buy damage boost items.

The problem is this:

If ADCs can kill you as easily as they kill another ADC, you have wasted your gold, and are now useless.

No I'm not misunderstanding - you're over-exaggerating the wrong focal points.

Armor doesn't get reduced to "negligible levels". 100 Armor = 50% reduction before LW - with LW & mastery you see about a 12% decrease to about 38% physical damage reduction. If you're stacking armor:

200 armor = 66% base physical damage reduction. Against a LW +mastery -> 45% physical damage reduction

300 armor = 75% base physical damage reduction Against LW + mastery -> 65% physical damage reduction

However, if an ally is hitting same target with a cleaver, then the armor really starts to suffer, but said ally would likely be attacking enemy carries, not to mention that for black cleaver's full effect, multiple hits are required to build stacks (albeit physical damage spells build stacks as well).

Statikk is 100 magic damage base and up to 250 magic damage base to a single target if crit. It is mitigated by magic resistance, and ad carries don't build magic penetration (except maybe low bronze).

I'm basically trying to tell you you can't give tanks additional survivability without heavily screwing the balance in favor for bruisers and fighters. You're expecting an adc versus tank fight to be fair - which it's not supposed to be.

If a tank melts in 3 hits or less FROM ADC ALONE, the adc is very far ahead. Now the particular exception to this are the late game carries that really excel after some items but are typically prone to a weak laning phase.

You can't use someone like Vayne or Kog as a baseline performance - most adcs aren't going to see the same power spikes and almost all will fall off in power in comparison.

But as I've repeatedly said, the biggest issue that has prevented the tanks from seeing frequent play is that while fighters/bruisers aren't engineered to take as much damage - their damage output and CC abilites more often than not outweigh the reduced survivability. If you boost survivability for the tank itemization, the fighters/bruisers still retain their dominance.

I completely understand wanting to see tanks become a regular sight again. The jungle changes may or may not help towards that goal since top and jungle are the two typical spots to slot said "tank". But introducing a major change without contemplating its affects across the board don't make things better.

While I don't miss seeing a 6 item fully stacked ChO lumbering about - giving him more survivability won't matter if the rest of his team gets melted.

DryditchDec 23, 20141 votes

I'm talking about what should be done for game health.

If Riot wants tank players to feel like shit, they're doing a great job. If they want us to move towards bruisers, they need to work just a wee bit harder at removing tanks from the game.

I'm looking at this as a potential future mechanic designed to help mitigate the bruiser encroachment on tanks.

Also... where did I ever mention Vayne or Kog? I'm saying one very simple thing that you just keep ignoring, since you don't play tanks.

Tanks FEEL useless because of this: An ADC can buy ONE item to make your hard-earned gold half as effective.

SeCKS EgaiDec 23, 20141 votes

{quoted}

I'm talking about what should be done for game health.

If Riot wants tank players to feel like shit, they're doing a great job. If they want us to move towards bruisers, they need to work just a wee bit harder at removing tanks from the game.

I'm looking at this as a potential future mechanic designed to help mitigate the bruiser encroachment on tanks.

Also... where did I ever mention Vayne or Kog? I'm saying one very simple thing that you just keep ignoring, since you don't play tanks.

Tanks FEEL useless because of this: An ADC can buy ONE item to make your hard-earned gold half as effective.

Again you resort to LW magically negating your armor - EVEN WITH MATH EXAMPLES I PROVIDED you still keep on this claim. At least you've gone to saying armor becomes 50% worthless over the 100% earlier.

Vayne came up primarily because of the true damage - I mention kog because he basically gets a similar bonus damage in magic form and is especially designed to be a tank melter like Vayne.

I do play tanks, and have since season 1, which is why I'm familiar with how dramatic things have changed. In fact, I think my braum was 2-0 in ranked vs my 0-4 leo. It's lot harder to coordinate with Leo than Braum when playing with a random stranger. One is all in, the other can poke and built around utility defense. You make these assumptions as if I am looking at things trying to favor the adc, yet my support win rate is actually a bit higher, and my highest win rate being in top lane, (mainly because if i end up there the rest of my team has gotten one of their better roles). Not only am I used to spending time bot lane, I've done it regularly on both tanks and non-tanks.

The difference is instead of looking at things from a specific role, I look at how the game dynamic changes as a whole. When I started, the support meta didn't exist.

We've all been talking about game health. While you have been transfixed on LW ruining your armor despite being 5% less effective than where it was at season 1, we've discussed survivability and why simply improving it through itemization or masteries alone does nothing to resolve bruisers and fighters effectively having taken their place.

I was a Vayne player drowning in a sea of Warmog's. Where stacked hp is usually a good thing for a Vayne, it was bad for not just her but adcs in general. You clearly feel like your favorite role is getting screwed - as if only your role has ever been in that position. So I have to wonder just how long you have been playing, as the League of Warmog's reference doesn't seem to click and that wasn't very long ago. And again, it wasn't the tanks that got it nerfed to hell, but the bruisers/fighters who could basically could kill and survive still negating the "necessity" of tanks as they had their own cc.

But you really seem to need an adc's perspective, as you've got this perception that one item makes tanks nearly useless. I mean you're still on with 39% penetration somehow negating 50% of your armor when its 39% only with masteries and 35% otherwise.

If you really think adcs have it so easy, you need to spend more time in bot lane. I know that before I started jungling I was quick to blame the jungler for poor performance. Once I became familiar with the jungle dynamic, I stopped being THAT player because I understood what went into it.

JustMyBassCannonDec 22, 20142 votes

{quoted}

I would rather see an AD Deathcap than the current state of ArPen.

Ehhh...I understand the concept, changing from a penalty on opponents to a bonus on self. The problem with an AD Deathcap is that it's redundant for those that use Infinity Edge, and it could be pretty ridiculous on the ones that don't.

It's not that the tank dying quite so quickly is bad, it's that it feels awful for the player to know their hard-earned gold is made useless by itemization on the other team.

No tank can make an ADC deal zero damage, so why should an ADC make a tank resist zero damage?

Tanks are basically experiencing how mages and some marksmen felt during Season 1. Yeah, Last Whisper ignored 40% instead of 35% (although it was after Flat, so Flat Pen was slightly weaker too), but that didn't keep tanks from basically running the game past 50 minutes with the minute-plus length team fights.

Not saying they deserve it; Tanks need some help. But the problem is the disparity between tank changes and anti-tank changes. Overall, the potential for defeating tanks has gone up, because of better items and systemic changes, all while tank items have taken consistent nerfs across the board.

Now... ideal situation? I'd like to see tanks be vulnerable to one character on the enemy team, and sort of shut out the rest (still take damage, but really have it reliant on one champion to take them down). A tank should not be as easy to kill as a squishy.

Tanks are now Poppy.

Really though, that kind of turns the game into Rock-Paper-Scissors (or Sword-Axe-Lance, Light-Dark-Anima, take your pick). Making it so that it's only worth having one specific champ interact with a specific target kind of turns the teamwork aspect back into "Protect X until Y is gone, then we can actually do something."

What if you need to carry your team, but you're not one of the champions who's able to deal with the tank? Just sit on your ass, watching your "carry" fail to do the one thing you need them to do?

I could be exaggerating a bit, but it just sounds more DotA than LoL style.

MiraweaveSep 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You're just about right, but here's the thing.

As a tank, items I build should be meant to mitigate the damage I'm taking, so I can better serve my team.

If you, as an ADC, can buy an item that completely ignores pieces of my build, then I am always on the back foot, and that makes a tank feel useless.

The problem with armor mitigation items (instead of having ADCs build items that can ramp up their damage exponentially--like they normally do) is that an ADC can just go ahead and deal 5-shot kills to the one champion on the opposing team who's supposed to be able to survive them.

And yes, Ninja Tabi are most likely going to be the boots I pick up, since I need boots and I scale well with armor, so there goes about 600 gold from my build, in addition to whatever else you're negating (let's say it's Frozen Heart, and the passive doesn't really matter thanks to your insane AS) thanks to 2300 gold from yours.

700 gold benefit to you.

The problem with LW isn't that it's good against tanks it's that it's good universally. It should be good against tanks, the entire purpose of the item is to let you kill tanks.

Sire HippingtonDec 21, 20146 votes

why introduce unnecessary new mechanics, that make itemisation way more of a clutter and probably a arms race, if you could fix it otherwise?

Change the armorpen-stacking back to S2, so flat and % pen don't go as well with each other
Reduce the way to high dps of lategame carrys, like reduceing base crit damage from 100% to 50% and increase all crit chances by some(like 20%, that means 30%instead of 25% on IE and so on) to make it more reliable and the difference from crit to no crit less devastating while also reducing the lategame dps
reduce LW to 30%, but maybe up the ad by 5 -give better lategame tank items!!!. The most expensive tank item curretnly is with 2.850g(well, one could argue that with 3.300 is, but it simply gives way less tank-stats than randuins) Most damage items cost above 3.000g and accordingly give more stats for the slot, and the 3 most expensive items are for ad( )
nerf , it is intended to be a counter for health stacking tanks, and it should be a lategame item cause the %damage should less powerfull than raw ad vs low health targets(in the early your enemys have a rather low healthpool) but become better vs highhealth enemys(in the lategame, most champions will have a rather high healthpool). Yet it is usually rushed, especially on assasins or dueling ad, not to fight tanks but to duel squishys. The fact that the actuall usecase of is the opposit of the theoretically intended usecase shows that something is inherently wrong with the item.

As a sidenote, crit should finally get reworked, not because of power(even though i think it's to powerfull atm), but to finally get rid of the last RNG in the game. There is no need for artifical randomness on a competive pvp game like lol.

Knight DevoutDec 21, 20146 votes

^ This. Botrk and last whisper were meant as anti-tank item, but they became strong against all kind of targets due to how resistances were calculated.

I don't know where the answer is, but as a fact having 2 anti-tank items beinf always presents even when not facing tanks is something that should be addressed.

Kuroi86Dec 21, 20145 votes

Crit reduction= Reinforced armor: Reduces the damage taken from critical strikes by 10%. Item for use against crit= item 3075 Item for use against bork= item 3110 Item for use against LW= item 3083 Good against AD in general= item 3047

The actual problem with tanks= I can itemize against AD and get nuked by their AP. Or I can itemize against their AP and get nuked by their AD... decisions, decisions...

JustMyBassCannonDec 21, 20142 votes

I'd probably replace both Frozen Heart and Warmog's with Randuin's Omen for that.

70 Armor + 500 HP is going to give you a lot more EHP than 800 HP or 100 Armor separately, unless you already have an insane amount of Armor or HP respectively.

{quoted}

The actual problem with tanks= I can itemize against AD and get nuked by their AP. Or I can itemize against their AP and get nuked by their AD... decisions, decisions...

That decision is easily decided; who is your laning opponent? If duo lane, which one is dealing more damage?

Kuroi86Dec 21, 20143 votes

I was more making generalizations than pointing out hard counter options. AD counters health, Armor counters AD, ArPen counters Armor, Health counters ArPen.

And while you're right, late game I'm screwed if I was laning against the only AD champ on their team.

the Anarchit3chtDec 22, 20142 votes

I agree with this, actually. It doesn't matter if I can live from a barrage of spell combos from their APC if their ADC is meanwhile shredding me to pieces with their machine gun-like xbow. Or vice versa. If I make the ADC's shots feel like a squirt gun I'm totally done for when they APC comes to melt my face off. The only way a tank is effective in these situations is if he can take the shots for his carry while managing to lock down his target for the kill. But seeing as how everyone has some form of dash these days... GOOD LUCK (*: