Can we talk Max vs Monsters?

Tik115··4 votes·1,629 views

More specifically can we talk about why some champions have it and why some don't? let me throw some examples of champions which ether massivly aid steals or are played as junglers (not all of them but just the ones off the top of my head)

Without caps

Nunu Chogath Kalista Lucian Sejuani Nidalee Volibear RekSai Khazix

With Caps

Zac Vi Vayne JarvanIV DrMundo Elise HecarimMaokai LeeSin Gnar KogMaw

Now lets look at what the Max damage vs Monsters do, its a way for Riot to gate jungle clear times or lane pushing. but do you notice that theres some major things weird here

First lets look at the capped Champions with % health damage, so that's everyone on that list minus Hec (Sorry ponyman) So these are capped on minions and monsters in their % damage, thats understandable for Vayne and Kog, their marksmen, Lee and Vi? I suppose its to give Tanks a chance to clear but....wait... Mao, Mundo and Zac are also capped and their tanks... Meanwhile lets look at the uncapped % damage, Voli, Nidalee and Kha'zix, 2 Assassins and an early game tank.

Now what about the ADCs? Well As I said it makes sense for Vayne and Kog, their mostly single target, Lucian with the mechanics of his ult make a bit of sense too but Kalista....Ok I'll be blunt this WAS gonna be a simple "Why isn't Kalistas E capped vs Monsters?" thread but then I noticed that the Max damage vs Monsters is...well it's a mess we have more tanks with capped damage vs monsters gates then the assassins do, infact there isn't one, (unless you include poppy), Riot talks about how tank junglers have a hard time well for some of them, this might be it I mean the only champions with uncapped damage vs Monsters on that list I feel is justified is Nunu, Cho, Sej and Voli, ether because they aren't good for anything else (Nunu) or because they're tanks who are already having a tough time, Meanwhile Mao, Mundo and especially Zac are gated as TANKS.

Riot I think you need to go back and really look at the Max vs Monster gates, it seems to me you've forgotten that gate (I mean C'mon you didn't gate Nids Takedown on monsters when she already has a waveclearing E? THIS is one of the main reasons she's a good jungler) or you apply them on the wrong things (Zac and Mundo guys! They have to kill themselves to use their damn abilities!) I mean people clamor for tanks to be usefull again, you want tanks to be part of Jungle diversity well theres an option to bring 3 back, get rid of their max damage vs monster gate, while your at it put the gates of Nidalees Q and Kalistas E, at least with Nunu and Cho you have a chance to outsmite the combo if they mistime, as for Kalista let her wail on it for 10 seconds and not even they can outsmite her (Lucian is fine because its DOT)

13 Comments

KaisadiIIa2 votes

So these are capped on minions and monsters in their % damage, thats understandable for Vayne and Kog, their marksmen, Lee and Vi?

Imagine champions with 20% of the target's maximum health using these abilities against Drake/Baron. Maokai could use an W to deal ~2,000 damage to Baron.

Tik1151 votes

which wouldn't be a far cry from Amumu 3% + 1% per 100AP W which may I add is uncapped

In fact Amumu deals more then Mao in that sense (13% per 9 seconds vs 3% per 1 second)

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

Nunu, Cho'gath, Lucian, Kha'zix and Rek'sai don't deal %HP damage. When there's a cap to the damage dealt, it's because the effect is based on %HP. Otherwise, the ability would deal increased damage to champions/reduced damage to minions.

Volibear's W does not deal %HP damage; rather, it deals a flat amount of damage based on Volibear's HP, and that flat damage is increased based on how much HP the target is missing (think Nidalee's Q).

Nidalee's %HP damage is based on current HP, so it gets weaker the lower her target is, while the rest of her damage is flat values.

Kalista's W does have a cap. Her E is flat damage.

Sejuani's is the only one that appears to legitimately lack a cap, but it's 12% (+3% AP) of target's max HP with no base damage. Full-AP Sejuani is an off-build, and not a very good choice.

Tik1151 votes

{quoted}

Nunu, Cho'gath, Lucian, Kha'zix and Rek'sai don't deal %HP damage. When there's a cap to the damage dealt, it's because the effect is based on %HP. Otherwise, the ability would deal increased damage to champions/reduced damage to minions.

I never listened them as having % HP, I listed them as having no cap.

Volibear's W does not deal %HP damage; rather, it deals a flat amount of damage based on Volibear's HP, and that flat damage is increased based on how much HP the target is missing (think Nidalee's Q).

Which is hardly any different to % missing health, it's an execute ability just like a Riven ult, lee Q or Elise Q, it just has a slightly less gaurentee

Nidalee's %HP damage is based on current HP, so it gets weaker the lower her target is, while the rest of her damage is flat values.

I was refering to her Q which is "The damage is increased by 1.5% for every 1% of the target's missing health, for a maximum of 150% bonus damage (250% total damage)." No cap despite the fact her Spear + Cougar Q would deal around 200 damage minimum to begin with, also if that is all well and good not to cap her W....why is Mundos Q capped when its also % current?

Kalista's W does have a cap. Her E is flat damage.

And that flat damage E is the problem, with how Kalistas work they'll have enough spears in the target to kill it at over 3K health with no chance to outsmite

Sire Hippington2 votes

why should any of the listed have a cap besides kallista and her E?

Tik1151 votes

Well why should some champions have the monster cap treatment and others don't? Smite + Comsume/Feast combo deals over 2K damage to a mob at level 18 so why can't Zac or Maokai do the same with their Ws?

Why can Nidalees Takedown not be capped on mobs despite her Q R Q dealing more damage then a Lee QQ, Vi W or Elise QQ which are capped anyway?

Its the fact that champions have unjustified caps when Nidalee, Kalista, Nunu, Chogath and Lucian are allowed to run around willy nilly without said caps, I can see the reasoning for say Nunu because he only has 2 damaging abilities, he needs something to shine out, Lucian I kind of see it too due to his mechanics, but Nidalee? KALISTA? I fail to see why they can get away with no cap and champions like Zac can't

Sire Hippington2 votes

Nunus consume is prettymuch his only selling point as a jungler, it's core to his identity and a Strength he makes up for with enough weaknesses. nidalees jungleclear since the buffs is a bit quetionable, but she needs to built damage and yet come close for that damage, so if she tries to execute a objektive while the enemy team is nearby, she's in a rather vulnerable spot. She also only deals that much damage vs low health targets, and if you block her spear she will have problems getting close while alos looses out a good bit of execute damage(+the spear damage) Nidas Q damage vs mobs probably is the least problematic part off her kit... Zac and Mao deal far more damage with there skills to mobs than any comparable skill with no maxhealth damage at tank gear. As i said, the only thing that really is strange is that the cap does not scale with ap, and therefor their damage vs mobs doesn't scale either. Chogath needs to burn his ult cd for that damage, so it's a damn fair tradeoff. Also, the cap of most skills only kicks in lategame or vs dragon/baron, else the junglemobs don't have enough hp for them reaching the cap in the early, and since early game is the main problem for tanks, the caps aren't a reason for their struggles(3 off the most dominant junglers actually have a cap aswell, Lee, Vi and J4(and Elise/Mundo in the past....)

As i said befor, the only problem with caps is that they don't scale with offense even if the %damage does scale, and Kallistas E as it reaches ridiculously high damage that allows her to out burst nearly every jungler, makeing baron/dragon steals vs Kallista kinda impossible.

Sire Hippington1 votes

there are only two things that are strange for caps vs monsters.

  1. Kallistats E, which allows her to outburst anny jungler as adc
  2. Why does the cap of %dmg that scales with ap not also scale with ap? why does a champ like eleise not get more damage vs monsters from building ap?

beseides that, only %max health is capped vs monsters. even mundos %current health isn't capped(Elise's is though....probably cause both her Qs together equal % max) edit: apparently mundos Q is capped, just at a compareable high cap

Tik1151 votes

Mundos Current health damage IS capped if you look it up the cap is this Max Damage versus Monsters: 300 / 400 / 500 / 600 / 700

Sire Hippington1 votes

well, it doesn't say so in the tooltip and the cap is so high that you don't notice it unless you fight baron or dragon.... Seju also got her W capped at 300 all ranks, and I'm damn sure that Ammumus W also has a cap

Kingsgrave1 votes

The without caps are not health damage.

Voli W is an increase based on missing health but not directly missing health damage thus it's not capped.

Cho and Nunu always deal the same amount.

More from Gameplay

More by Tik115