And with the MF mini rework we're down to 2 champions and 1 item that can apply it.

Tik115··73 votes·4,512 views

Ok lets remember here, what was the purpose of Grevious wounds? it's aim was to counter healers, life steal and spellvamp and thats good right? Champions like Vladamir, Zac, and of course those double lifesteal ADCs can be hurt but not shut down and countered.

Then pray tell then Riot, why you think its a smart idea to add more means of sustain (WoTA change, BOTRK, Elixirs, Spirit visage change) but you remove its main means of countering it.

Executioners? Gone Fizz W? Gone MF W? Gone

What's the point of Soraks ult removing Grevious wounds anymore if your slowly phasing it out? lets just remember here there are only FOUR things that apply it now

Varus E Kat ult Morello Ignite

So you have a choice of a champions weakest spell in their entire kit, an ult which only lasts until it gets one kill then spam those resets, an item which only applies it at 40% or lower or a spell with over 3 mins of cooldown. This just means sustain will go hand in hand with tanks and we'll go from a tank meta to a tank+ Heals meta, we're talking Nauts top Tanky junglers Vlad mids and the return of Sona and Nami (Ok I'm all Yay for that last one)

Rather then just flat out remove this "hidden power" why not move it to other things? say Iunno, what if attacking a person with Thornmail applied grievous wounds as well? what if a new item for say brusiers applied grievous wounds when activated?

I mean if your just phasing out the debuff why not just say "hell with it" and remove it from everything minus Ignite since y'know, over 3 mins cooldown? kinda not gonna worry sustain champions.

Wouldn't be suprised if thats in patch 5.15

62 Comments

Knight SoIaire 41 votes

Grewious wounds are in fact to be removed

existance of grewious wounds makes it so that champions with good sustain need to have their sustain op

if grewious wounds actualy disapear from the game riot can simply nerf champions who heal too much without worrying that gw will make them totaly obsolete

its a weird interaction where the solution to the problem is actualy making the problem worse ... but with time it will be fixed

AutoreactiveCD42 votes

This is actually the best argument for removing gw I have read. Wasn't sold on it before, still not completely sure, but I can see a decent reason now.

gubigubi2 votes

Ya this actually makes sense now that I think of it like that lol.

Champion Skin2 votes

The problem with GW in the game is that... hmm if it this sustain/healing is hit with GW it is useless.. however if we buff it and it isn't hit with GW it is OP... So either it will be useless when hit by GW or it will be OP when it isn't reduced by GW... which is the current problem with healing

AutoreactiveCD41 votes

Ya its kinda weird...The way I'm looking at it is that when they both exist GW makes healing useless, but healing is compensated because of it. Less GW in the current state makes sustain ridiculous because sustain is still tuned to a game where GW is meant to counter it...you end up in a strange circle...or I'm just dumb both are very possible.

I'm still not sold on getting rid of GW, maybe just tweaking it to less heal reduction and keep it rare or conditional. Preserve champion an item identity/diversity, whatever PR campaign riot is using at the time.

Champion Skin1 votes
  1. Healing is ridiculous because of GW (or made useless because of GW)
  2. GW is removed healing is even more ridiculous
  3. healing is toned down and balanced around the fact that GW almost don't exist

(Like Katarina will likely never lose the GW on her ult simply because you are supposed to prevent it with CC not healing.. however item 3165 likely will lose its GW)

Solaxo3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9M8V06b,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-07-07T23:39:17.399+0000)

Grewious wounds are in fact to be removed

existance of grewious wounds makes it so that champions with good sustain need to have their sustain op

if grewious wounds actualy disapear from the game riot can simply nerf champions who heal too much without worrying that gw will make them totaly obsolete

its a weird interaction where the solution to the problem is actualy making the problem worse ... but with time it will be fixed

Soon they will remove all spells because they're also problematic and hard to balance

Knight SoIaire 3 votes

they should remove champions and minionswhile they are at it

how can they call the game ballanced when i have to go itno the game and kill those minions ... it makes me feel like some hitler who just kills innocent beings

rissotto is bad consifrmed

Doctor Ivellius2 votes

I would argue it's the kind of thing that should be done during a preseason, not in the middle, and done basically all at once.

The other issue is that a lot of healing is also balanced / designed so that certain champions can jungle. Without giving more advantages against only monsters, you run into problems with tuning them (healing has to be strong in the jungle but weaker in lane).

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

(healing has to be strong in the jungle but weaker in lane)

thats a machete gw has nothing to do with it

I would argue it's the kind of thing that should be done during a preseason, not in the middle, and done basically all at once.

but doing this progressively also has its merits they can avoid the ballance break caused by gw just disapearing ... ballancing takes time so all heavy healing champions wont be ballanced right after the change

by doing this progressively players will still have options to counter that ... it can cause a simple meta shift where champions who heal and those who still have gw get to be the meta champs ... then some nerfs and buffs gw wont be needed and riot will be safe to finaly remove them

i think that the slow way is safer

Doctor Ivellius1 votes

Machete sustain is laughable.

Champions like Warwick, Fiddlesticks, Xin Zhao, and so many others have typically depended on the self-sustain aspects of their kit to be successful junglers. When tuned high enough to be competitive options, they would just go to lane and sustain through everything. Grievous Wounds is one of the options to balance that better (provides a PvP option independent of PvE success).

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

if others can heal so good why would machete be any stronger

remember we are not talking about that is on live but what is planned for future

Champion Skin2 votes

Ehh... well Warwick and Xin Zhao.. needs to auto attack a lot (Warwick even needs to hit the same target which is usually not that optimal in lane when last hitting and such) and well Fiddle is farm from a great laner and if he drains minions for sustain he is very vulnerable if he drains an enemy champion they are likely to break the leash or CC him

Non of their sustain is great in a laning scenario and they are decent in PvP if they aren't CC but even then life steal is most likely stronger in most cases and fiddle is often very screwed if his drain is interrupted because he is so squishy without the "OP" healing from drain

Fat of the Land2 votes

Ding ding ding. It doesn't belong in the game aside from a few exceptions wherein it supplements some other purpose. For example Katarinas ultimate is a good spell for it to exist on because it's a burst AoE spell designed to kill people, therefore limiting the amount opponents can sustain during it maximizes the impact of its damage output. Further since the effect is secondary to this primary goal (of killing people) it isn't ideally utilized primarily as a counter to sustain. That is when using Katarinas ultimate you look to do so for damage and kills over preventing the sustain of champions such as Swain or Mundo.

Cheap and frequent spells such as Varus E or MFs W however skew the balance of healing so much that sustain champions have to compensate for the handicap, which makes their sustain ridiculously strong when that handicap isn't present. Therefore it shouldn't be on those spells at all and sustain champions should be balanced with the idea that opposing players won't nullify half their healing output.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

true

but at the same time carries shouldnt be able to sustain hard enough to counter burst the chain of consequences is realy long and complicated here

Earl Eulrich15 votes

well, the system needs a compelte overhaul anyway - 50%difference is just way too binary atm. If sustain-champs are strong that means that either you apply gv and the champs are sort of alright, or you don´t apply it and they become immortal. There´s just no healthy middleground currently.

they really have to address it this preseason though if they keep on removing gv-sources.

kile14711 votes

Exactly, GW is too powerful to be common. Hopefully they will remove it from Morello too, and then they can finally balance healing around the damage that champs normally take, and not GW.

DanofDemacia3 votes

I agree with the removal of gw just cuz j want everyone who abuses healing to be nerfed. But what would they give Morello to make it more special? More mana regen? More ap? I was thinking armor so like to push it toward more against ad champs while chalice is for against ap champs

kile1471 votes

item 3191 kinda already fills that niche, though it doesn't provide mana regen. Right now Morello's is the more offensive of the mana regen items, whereas Grail is the more defensive option. I think that the tricky part about changing it will be to do it in a way that doesn't add a lot of damage. Maybe giving it the mana return on spell damage mechanic that people have been asking for. Having it so that it works kinda like a weaker version of Xerath or Lissandra passive.

DanofDemacia1 votes

Yeah but we have ultiple ap/mr items so i think it would be a good option to give it armor . If they make the ap to high no one will get chalice. A mana return would be nice but id personally prefer something offensive

kile1471 votes

The mana return would be the more offensive equivalent of the Grail. Grail's passive rewards you for playing more passively, where a mana vamp mechanic would reward you for playing aggressively. I thought about having it so that it would have like 60-100 AP based on %current mana but thought that would be way too rewarding to burst playstyles.

OverpoweredSoap11 votes

To be fair (or at least imo) Fizz didn't really need GW because he could instantly delete people. On top of being invulnerable at the same time.

I dunno why they removed MF's though, she needed that for laning. She is a bully laner and is still planned to be one so the removal is weird.

GW is kinda disappearing though and it's weird.

(I'm about to go on a random tangent over here so be careful)

Honestly sustain and lifesteal are the reason assassins most of the time are made to 100-0. Because when they go in and 100-20 someone (and possibly die, the possible exception being LeBlanc Zed? and slightly Shaco) , that person most of the time will have enough sustain (or lifesteal if an adc) to literally be up at full health aftwards. Or even lifesteal during the burst because they have enough damage to live through it and kill someone. For reset champions that means a lot (Kat and Kha).

I find the removal of GW really awkward tbh.

kile1472 votes

I think that if they remove it from normal use (Ignite is fine, and I guess Kat ult is fine since neither are really spammable) then they will be able to balance healing better, which is why I think they are doing the changes to WoTA too. Right now healing has to be balanced on your damage, your target's armor/MR, your penetration, how many nearby minions there are, and if the other team has grevious wounds. They are trying to make it so that healing only needs to be balanced on amount of damage dealt and amount of damage taken.

This will hopefully allow them to tune the values a lot easier so that you don't have cases where Swain in the middle of a minion wave NEEDS Grevious Wounds to be beaten, and the rest of the time his healing is not even good for sustain because you have item 3165.

Renegade Angel953 votes

Miss Fortune's W is far from spam-able. It's a steroid weaker than a few Marksman, like Tristana or Jinx. There worst part of it being removed is she was compensated absolutely nothing. She still has that mediocre E that I almost never cause because of the insane mana cost. It does almost nothing.

kile1474 votes

It's relatively spammable compared to summoner 14. She was compensated by making the active effect turn her passive on immediately, which if you're unhappy with then your issue is that she was poorly compensated, not that the GW was removed.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

The obvious issue with replacing a powerful debuff with...that is how easy it is to turn off her Passive.

I can cancel her Passive without a thought once, and I can do it again.

kile1473 votes

They also made it so that it's harder to cancel, though I didn't really understand the full details. I don't play MF so I'm not going to argue with you over the relative worth of what they did, but I can say that taking her grevious wounds away will end up being better for game health overall, and if they didn't compensate it enough then the solution is to give it more compensation and not to revert the change.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Not certain but id assume it meant strut is only broken if hit by a single target spell or basic attack. So things like Ziggs Q wont stop her. I dont really know though. Also means minions will still stop strut

MrBuffington6 votes

Morellonomicon is disabled for the next featured game mode on PBE (with a few different other items acting as substitute); wouldn't be surprised if they're looking to replace Morellonomicon at some point in the future....

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

Perhaps, the better question is: why does Kat of all champs, need grievous wounds?

IcyPepper4 votes

So it's easier to get kills, I'm guessing.

Heaven forbid that a champion without reliable cc has some defensive measure against Katarina.

kile1474 votes

I think it's because she is intended to be a burst champ. Her ult is over time so that you have time to CC her and prevent the full damage, but because it's not instant you could theoretically heal through it, which you don't want on a burst champ, so they gave it GW. With the massive damage it does I don't think it needs GW, but that was probably why they put it on there. Even with GW being removed, I doubt Kat will lose hers, but it certainly wouldn't break her if they did take it.

SoMNia4 votes

To prevent you from heal-tanking her ult rather than CCing her to stop it.

Silents4291 votes

Didn't stop me from killing her during her ult hehe Swain

AbyssionKnight5 votes

Let's be real. Mf losing Grievous wounds is not going to create a heal tank meta. Why? Because Grievous wounds is already so rare, that if such a meta were to exist, it probably would already.

Sightless664 votes

it's aim was to counter healers, life steal and spellvamp and thats good right?

It may be a good aim, but it's an absolutely terrible execution. Grievous Wounds warps the balance around healers. It is such a strong effect that healers either have to be balanced around being oppressive when it isn't in a game and balanced when it is, worthless when it is in a game and balanced when it isn't, or worthless/oppressive based on whether it is in a game or not.

What's the point of Soraks ult removing Grevious wounds anymore if your slowly phasing it out?

The point of it was to make a healer without having to balance them around Grievous Wounds. Ignoring the horrible way the effects warps healer balance was literally the entire reason that clause exists. If Grievous Wounds doesn't exist, the attempts to balance around it don't need to exist either.

This just means sustain will go hand in hand with tanks and we'll go from a tank meta to a tank+ Heals meta

What this means is that we can balance healers around more reasonable counterplay. If they're too strong, we can nerf them without worrying that they'll be utterly useless whenever they have to go up against Grievous Wounds.

I mean if your just phasing out the debuff why not just say "hell with it" and remove it from everything

Two reasons. First, it represents a significant piece of power on the champions it exists on. Simply removing it requires rebalancing and/or redesign which would take time, and there are other priorities for that time. Second, it can have some very limited healthy uses (Katarina ult is actually healthy given that it lasts for a very short time and only serves to make immediate saves harder, which is useful for her reset-on-kill passive).

Rather then just flat out remove this "hidden power" why not move it to other things?

That doesn't fix the problem. The mechanic itself is poorly designed.

Calibretto94 votes

I miss Executioner's Calling. That is all.

Emperor Time3 votes

Grevious wounds in no way made or breaked MF laning phase. She's a pokey lane bully and she will continue to be a pokey lane bully with or without grevious wounds.

Champion Skin2 votes

It made MF dueling better because most ADC's get life steal

5G8Nri0B543 votes

Well I'd also add one more purpose behind MF's own Grievous Wound in that, it counters healers and also lets her damage stick a little longer. Her W reduced lifesteal and basic health regen, which doesn't seem like much, but then you remember that she is meant to apply it frequently over a long period of time in lane.

What I mean to say is...it adds up and it plays directly into her lane-bully-ness.

I can think of a poor man's remedy to that effect, and that is to make it inflict a small DoT to offset regeneration and lifesteal a bit, but it still won't help against Soraka and Taric.

Marianna Kross3 votes

I loathe Riot's inconsistent hate for heals. Back in the day, Morello went on and on about how being able to heal back damage made for boring games. We saw the rise of shields back then.

Now we are losing more and more ways to combat healing. The few times you needed to buy something like Executioner's Calling, you REALLY needed to. Sure, the item wasn't fantastic, but it did it's job. Now the only AD options for GW is "Tell whoever has ignite to save it specifically for one problem champion in the hopes it stops them" or "Pick Varus and make sure everyone CC's them inside your E"? Come on.

Removing (the original) Sword of the Divine made sense, since the mechanic it was countering was completely removed. Removing Grievous Wounds isn't the same at all. You'd have to remove champions/items and rework many abilities. It isn't something flat-out easy to remove like dodge.

OnanThaMan2 votes

I'd say my body is ready for these two Swain Vladimir and the new ap items changes but i'd be lying, just like i'd be lying if i said i liked Elise's stun duration being a fixed stun at all ranks(1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 -> 1.5 at all ranks now) rather than a scaling one.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well it kind of makes her E a better one point wonder... however the problem is that it weakens her late game... which already is far from great...

OnanThaMan1 votes

Which is why i don't like it. I'd prefer them to buff other aspects of her early game rather than shift power away from her already lackluster late game.

WolfBV2 votes

Awwww yus, my time to shine. DrMundo

Nunya Bezwacks1 votes

I'm actually suprised they aren't nerfing the shit out of mundo ahead of time...

JC DarkOmen2 votes

Swain thank you, Rito

Nunya Bezwacks2 votes

Sona and Nami still don't heal for shit even with nothing applying grievous wounds

foinhas2 votes

vlad was already uber buffed with the ap remake. now he has even less counters...

tr dl: vlads, vlads everywhere

Tik1152 votes

I Noticed Spirit visage also got buffed, ima just add that now

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