Anyone worried about the rise of J4?

Tik115·Jan 25, 2015·95 votes·7,134 views

Oh I'm not talking about his Mobility being strong

Or his engage

Or his insane synergy with Gnar

Or his damage:tank ratio

I mean whenever a Jungler tries to challenge a certain monk in that role they errr, they tend to get nerfed pretty hard

in all seriousness if Riot decides to nerf J4 then I say Lee nerfs should come with him, specially since Riot don't see a problem with Lee and the community mostly don't see a problem with J4 (minus Gnarvin but hey that's an effective wombo for you)

130 Comments

LearndingJan 25, 201537 votes

This shit bothers the ever living hell out of me. He's not, "On the rise". He's filling in for the lackluster group of junglers that can perform because Riot can't balance a champion for their lives. It's the same thing with Tristana; when Pro players thought she was "OP". No champion is OP, Riot is just forcing other predominant champions that perform at a lower level compared to the recently nerfed champion line, because they nerf for the now and not the later.

VDc0zCqe0wJan 25, 201510 votes

normally i would agree with you, but not this time

J4 punishes non-mobile champs extremely hard (you gotta have flash else you can't do anything): we need champs that punish mobility, not the opposite

meatjunjunJan 25, 20156 votes

Punishing mobility requires more mobility. So I don't think that logic is sound.

LeeDarkJan 26, 20154 votes

Champions who have mobility pay for it by giving up some other strength. (Generally, that is how it is supposed to work. Of course, Riot's balance team doesn't get it quite right, but the point is the same. When a champion is designed with mobility, they try to design it with some lack of strength elsewhere. Xerath lacks mobility and makes up for it with sheer power and two forms of CC. Zed has lots of mobility and can't CC at all without an item.)

With that in mind, anything that negates mobility, such as Azir's ult, or ignores mobility, such as Vi's ult, essentially lowers the overall strength of the champion.

AlphariteJan 26, 20152 votes

Zed does have soft CC in the form of a slow, but your point about mobility being a tradeoff (theoretically) is correct.

A Superb VillainJan 26, 201523 votes

Azir's ult punishes mobility.

http://st.elohell.net/public/chill/49f7f43c571d0ffd8e81c24fac785d31.gif

Rew711Jan 26, 20152 votes

Is that really something we should be worried about? I'm worried that because everyone wants to play their favorite champions, they want the ones that can beat them to be nerfed.

I for one hate the "this champion can do more with energy" and "that champion would be to OP if you did this small change". It bewilders me.

How many times do we see a buff that actually does just damage anymore?

Now, its all about armor pen and magic res. I for one do not think that champion abilities should have to have so much put into them. I say, make Shen have reasonable Energy costs, give mana regen its crazy regen back, undo a lot of nerfs that have been done to fun champions and items, and for the love of God, can word on Ao Shin please reach us, Riot.

I can't even play Zac because he was too strong when HP regen could help him, I want to play Yorick who isn't broken anymore because of item changes, and I want to play the different game modes Riot seems to think we hate because they sure don't stay long. (What I meant was, I want them to stay.)

Look at what Riot did to so many champions because you removed 1 item from the game. Garen wanted to be a Sorcerer, but Riot said no. I don't really understand why it was removed. I never heard of anything bad coming from it, unlike Zhonya's Hourglass which has a lot more troll moves.

LeeDarkJan 26, 20152 votes

I just want to touch on your comment about Shen. I feel like Shen is the ONE energy champ that is close to the right place. Energy should be limited, and every energy champ should have to land something to have enough energy to do a full combo, just like Shen has to land his taunt. (He needs other buffs, I think, but this one aspect is right.) Zed would be much less oppressive if he had to land either 2 Q's or 2 E's (one from himself and one from his shadow) in order to get energy back to do the other. This rewards skillful use of the skillshots, and allows counterplay in that dodging stops him from just continuing anyway. (Hell, I'd even consider making shadow swapping cost energy so he'd have to land those skillshots with both himself and his shadow in order to escape after an ult.)

blueberrypancakeJan 26, 20152 votes

long live Kennen

MadraJan 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

normally i would agree with you, but not this time

J4 punishes non-mobile champs extremely hard (you gotta have flash else you can't do anything): we need champs that punish mobility, not the opposite

Mobility isn't balanced properly in total power budget.

1st HanarSpectreJan 25, 201524 votes

J4 is not rising, he's been at the top for quite a while now.

Tik115Jan 25, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bnuOHmqG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-25T19:42:23.839+0000)

J4 is not rising, he's been at the top for quite a while now.

Oh i'm aware he's always been a strong pick but this Gnarvin combo pushes him up to match Lee, whiiiccchh typically results in the contender to Lee being nerfed

Flawless FetusJan 27, 20151 votes

Lol. "Pushes him up to match with Lee". Idk why people insist on pretend that Lee is still god tier. If I have a J4 jungle, I love it. If I have a Lee jungle, I consider dodging. He is a shadow of what he used to be. Granted, he's still mobile, but the "jack of all trades" he used to be is gone. He's now subpar at everything. Remember how Yasuo got overnerfed, to trash tier, but still got banned? Lol. He was never picked, always banned, but he had to receive buffs. I think it's the same thing here. Lee is currently a subpar pick, but quite a few people still view him as a threat. I don't get it. When was the last time you played Lee Sin? Maybe you're confused in thinking that he's what he used to be.

MeowMixWarriorJan 25, 201519 votes

This would require Riot to actually take a look at the new jungle, itemization, and current champion strengths which we all know that they have historically proven that they are incapable of moving with some semblance of urgency.

coppinslingerJan 25, 201519 votes

I'm sad if this happens because J4 was literally tier 2 for all of season 4. Suddenly jungle changes go through and he becomes this unstoppable monster? Yeah he was always good, but it sucks that randomly he becomes the new God of the jungle. It honestly shows that the jungle has this nerf-cycle going. Elise was shot-down. Kha'zix was shot down. Evelyn was shot-down. Pantheon's ult was "fixed" and his AS nerfed. Even Lee Sin was hit lightly with the nerf-bat last season. If all those nerfs didn't lead up to this point, then would J4 really be the best right now? I don't know but it seems like Riot brought this upon themselves by nerfing every other jungler.

Yeah I suppose he can deal with the new jungle relatively well and has a lot of damage and tankiness when on a budget. But I hope he isn't nerfed too hard.

Tik115Jan 25, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I'm sad if this happens because J4 was literally tier 2 for all of season 4. Suddenly jungle changes go through and he becomes this unstoppable monster? Yeah he was always good, but it sucks that randomly he becomes the new God of the jungle. It honestly shows that the jungle has this nerf-cycle going. Elise was shot-down. Kha'zix was shot down. Evelyn was shot-down. Pantheon's ult was "fixed" and his AS nerfed. Even Lee Sin was hit lightly with the nerf-bat last season. If all those nerfs didn't lead up to this point, then would J4 really be the best right now? I don't know but it seems like Riot brought this upon themselves by nerfing every other jungler.

Yeah I suppose he can deal with the new jungle relatively well and has a lot of damage and tankiness when on a budget. But I hope he isn't nerfed too hard.

The thing is with J4 is he isn't an unstoppable monster, he also can't pull of the kind of things Lee can, BUT with Gnarvin (Meaning it takes TWO PEOPLE) He can make a play which instead of knocking the enemy carry to their death like Lee can he instead is able to (With the help of Mega Gnar) lock down an entire team, except Riot will probitly say thats too strong (When they made the damn change to let his wall work like that RECENTLY) and nerf him even though it's not his fault

coppinslingerJan 25, 201512 votes

Well, it may just be me, but I'm pretty sure J4 is top tier even when not combo'd with gnar.

J4 always had great synergy with anyone with AoE CC/Damage (Cough: Rumble ), but he's pretty strong regardless of that in both competitive and soloQ play.

exiledFromBadmenJan 26, 20153 votes

Orianna Yasuo

MakebateJan 26, 20151 votes

same happened to WW, he was rising just before the jungle change, and after he was a greatest demi god we have seen for a long time with a smashing 60% winrate

Angry MonsterJan 26, 20158 votes

lets be honest, WW needed to be hit. Was he hit to hard? Sure he was, but that does not change the fact he need to be nerfed.

OrdersJan 25, 201516 votes

I'm actually glad that J4 and Rek'Sai are out-competing Lee Sin for top jungle pick.

I was getting really sick of Lee Sin every LCS game last split.

Since Rek'Sai is already getting additional nerfs, I can see J4 nerfs soon. Riot's balancing team bias always shows its true light when it's dealing with Lee Sin and his competitors.

Tik115Jan 25, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prime Tempest,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bnuOHmqG,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-01-25T19:46:11.310+0000)

I'm actually glad that J4 and Rek'Sai are out-competing Lee Sin for top jungle pick.

I was getting really sick of Lee Sin every LCS game last split.

Since Rek'Sai is already getting additional nerfs, I can see J4 nerfs soon. Riot's balancing team bias always shows its true light when it's dealing with Lee Sin and his competitors.

Even though the J4 nerfs will be unjustified since literally the massive increase in power is just due to the Gnar/J4 R combo, ban or take Gnar from the J4 and suddenly he's a little below his S3 strength

AkesgerothJan 26, 201516 votes

JarvanIV La dee da dee da, jungling sure is fun!

LeeSin Hello Jarvan.

JarvanIV Oh, Lee Sin! Uh... I... Uh, I didn't see you there. N-nice to meet you!

LeeSin Yeah, yeah, nice to meet you too Jarvan. So, I've heard rumors.

JarvanIV W-what kind of rumors?

LeeSin Apparently you're a good jungler. A really good jungler.

JarvanIV I'm not that good, really. Not that good at all!

LeeSin That's not what I've been told. I'm told you might even be competing with me.

JarvanIV N-no! That's not true! Ha ha... Ha. Oh man, who would say such things?

LeeSin SHUT UP!

JarvanIV AGH! MY LEGS! MY LEGS! WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY-

LeeSin SHUT THE HELL UP! YOU THINK YOU CAN MOVE ON MY TURF LIKE THAT?

JarvanIV HOW IS THIS LEGAL?

LeeSin I'M MOTHERFUCKING LEE SIN! I'M UNTOUCHABLE, BITCH!

JarvanIV HELP! SOMEONE HELP! AAAAGGGH, MY ARMS!

LeeSin Yeah, that's right. Now, next week, Morello is going to send some nerfs in the mail, and you're gonna take them and be happy.

JarvanIV Oh god, it hurts, it hurts so-

LeeSin DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?

JarvanIV YES! YES I DO!

LeeSin Good. I'm glad we had this conversation. Now have fun jungling, jackass!

JarvanIV sobs uncontrollably

Tis a nice dayJan 26, 20152 votes

Jarvan always takes it rather hard.

Balderdash1000Jan 27, 20151 votes

This is without a doubt one of the best posts I've seen in a long time here.

Silents429Jan 27, 20151 votes

Even though this was amusing but as characters, I think J4 would fuck up Lee Sin.

Cale017Jan 25, 201511 votes

Riot will never legitimately nerf Lee Sin, but I can't tell you how refreshing it is to see someone saying something positive about JIV right now and even tossing in a critique of Riot's favoritism for Lee Sin as a means of warning people. If I could do more than +1 this I would.

Tik115Jan 25, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Riot will never legitimately nerf Lee Sin, but I can't tell you how refreshing it is to see someone saying something positive about JIV right now and even tossing in a critique of Riot's favoritism for Lee Sin as a means of warning people. If I could do more than +1 this I would.

J4 was my main jungler S3 and my fall back jungler in S4 so I would be positive about J4 and the critique tossing was simply because Lee and J4 do the same thing differently

-Both are highly mobile (lee more so) -Both have high damage -Both are good initiators

the literal difference is with a Gnar J4 can supasse Lee's engage with the Gnarvin R combo but unlike Lee who can cause your highest value player to get deleted by himself it takes 2 for J4 to do an equivalent

Cale017Jan 25, 20155 votes

The difference I see between them is that JIV's mobility comes at the cost of his initiation. It's his only way in, and he doesn't have a way out afterwards. He's mobile while engaging, but otherwise not so much. And his damage? Yeah it's great, but Lee's scalings are so god awful high that he can build a Hydra and keep up in damage output by the numbers while building two tank items while other junglers would have to build two more damage items to beat him out in terms of hurt.

I feel like people who play JIV have to work for what they get. I've never really paid attention to the pro scene, as I prefer to learn myself instead of copying others, but I did sit down to watch the season 4 finale and when I saw JIV in action the way he was used I bought him pretty much immediately and since then I've been trying to learn him. He definitely doesn't disappoint, but I've never once felt that I was being fed things. I work for every assist and every kill, and when I die I feel like it's my fault.

futuresight23Jan 25, 20157 votes

I think it is inevitable that Jarvan is going to get nerfed, not for challenging a certain champ but for being pick/ban in competitive while having one of the highest solo queue winrates. The solo queue ban rate will also be on the rise after the assassin nerfs go through.

Jarvan is a really consistent champ that while there may be others with stronger strengths, he doesn't have much in the way of glaring weakness.

Tik115Jan 25, 201512 votes

{quoted}

I think it is inevitable that Jarvan is going to get nerfed, not for challenging a certain champ but for being pick/ban in competitive while having one of the highest solo queue winrates. The solo queue ban rate will also be on the rise after the assassin nerfs go through.

Jarvan is a really consistent champ that while there may be others with stronger strengths, he doesn't have much in the way of glaring weakness.

Mana costs
No escapes if he goes in
Rather weak peel power
"I'm Jarven I'm helping!" (if he messes his ult up, say if he gets a few teamates in it and the fight goes sour it'll REALLY go sour)

Kobila2000Jan 26, 20153 votes

Mana costs? Go play Skarner and then talk about mana costs. Or is it a mana issue that there's a mana-using jungler who's popular among all the Rek'Sai and Lee picks?
Tanks are meant to initiate. They are not meant to have escapes. Anivia or Brand not having escapes is a legitimate flaw, saying that Nautilus or Sejuani can't escape after engaging just shows a complete ignorance over what tanks are supposed to do. Also J4 has a really good escape, in many cases making it useless to chase him. You're basically pretending like it's a flaw that he doesn't have 3 dashes.
So an aoe pass-through knockup and a terrain cage is really weak peel power. Man, I wonder what you have to say about Rek'Sai or Olaf.
The player being bad is not a flaw. This is the same as the Thresh lantern argument: just because your teammate is too stupid to click your lantern does not mean that the lantern is useless.

Only Play DariusJan 26, 20155 votes

I used to main skarner. Very tanky jungler that at the same time does incredible damage, high movement speed, and an extremely disruptive ultimate. Then the mana changes went through and now skarner runs out of mana while he has blue buff. It's a shame because he is one of the coolest champions in the game.

AltricadJan 25, 20156 votes

Jarvan was always strong, I knew this ever since I hit level 30 ( 6 months ago), apparently, the reason that he wasn't "top-tier" was that his ulti could be easily flashed out, etc.

Another reason was that there were other champions that were better than him in ganking Elise Evelynn and others that scaled harder Khazix .

Now, let me tell you, the minute Jarvan gets the nerf bat XinZhao will rise. People just don't notice the champions other than fotm, just like how Warwick was QQd about despite it being the ridiculously overpowered devourer enhancement that gave true damage. Other champions abused the crap out of it too, like MasterYi Aatrox Fiora . Instead of ONLY nerfing the item, they went an extra step and reduced Warwick to tier 3 status.

And that "Extra" step is COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. Riot seems waaay too worried at times and OVER-KILLS anything that seems to be a problem.

This fish Fizz is finally getting fixed, but something deep inside tells me that riot will put out another nerf on pbe as soon as the patch hits. Why? Because "Extra".

Same for Zed , instead of fixing his obnoxious harass and zero risk ulti, they go for the "extra", and nerf his attack speed. Now, I don't think there was a single post that complained about Zed's splitpushing ANYWHERE, just cuz riot wants it removed, they're going for it. Of course, they'll nerf his lane harass as well and people will find that Zed is sub tier, because he loses his late game utility of splitpushing.

That "Extra" is NOT NEEDED. JarvanIV has plenty of issues, he goes oom way too fast, his ulti can be flashed out ( unlike this guy LeeSin , f*k his zero counterplay ulti) , he's only strong because others are dead.

AND EVEN AFTER THIS, if the community cries for blood and JarvanIV is nerfed, who will you go for next? is still quite strong, are you gonna kill her next? or maybe XinZhao ? A champion with 0 escapes that does well in the new jg due to his sustain. Great, gut him too.

Then a long time will pass until people QQ about Nocturne , who also has sustain and can contest dragon easily with his ulti. And YES, the community will proceed to get him gutted, when he is considered tier 3 right now.

This has to stop, the Never ending Nerf-cycle has to end. Why can't we buff others instead??? Does it ALWAYS have to be nerfs? Even when clearly, the nerf pool is LARGER than the buff pool???

Why not buff Nautilus Sejuani Elise Hecarim Sion Amumu Chogath these guys and their jungle capabilities if you're REALLY worried about Jarvan dominating??

It sounds like the community just loses to one champion/sees him/her in MUH LCS and just wants them removed. WTF, is killing a champion the ONLY solution to diversity?

tldr ; Nerfing Jarvan would only bring more nerfs to other champions. The Nerf cycle has to stop and the Buff cycle has to start. Buff tanky jungler's stats that allows them to jungle early game and Jarvan won't be an issue.

Tik115Jan 25, 20153 votes

{quoted} tldr ; Nerfing Jarvan would only bring more nerfs to other champions. The Nerf cycle has to stop and the Buff cycle has to start. Buff tanky jungler's stats that allows them to jungle early game and Jarvan won't be an issue.

I think after they hit Lee with the nerfbat THEN start the buff-cycle, since the 2 other top teirs knocking Lee out of the running for now are Reksai which is a strong duelist and less Utility and J4 who really only got up a tier because of Gnarvin, 2 powerful jungles with very clear weaknesses (Reksai has poor utility and her ult is only good for positioning, J4, well, your post)

futuresight23Jan 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I think after they hit Lee with the nerfbat THEN start the buff-cycle, since the 2 other top teirs knocking Lee out of the running for now are Reksai which is a strong duelist and less Utility and J4 who really only got up a tier because of Gnarvin, 2 powerful jungles with very clear weaknesses (Reksai has poor utility and her ult is only good for positioning, J4, well, your post)

Yes Gnar and Jarvan have strong synergy, but Jarvan is a top jungler even without Gnar.

qetzelJan 25, 20152 votes

To be fair, they just buffed four of the junglers you mentioned, Sion is strong in the top lane and a buff will push him over the edge and Amumu has a consistent win rate.You could make an argument for Cho'Gath being sleeper OP.

NicarasuJan 25, 20152 votes

I think you're right about cho. I recently started playing him mid, and if he gets too many buffs (aside from his recent ulti buff :D), he'll be an unstoppable monster in not only the jungle but mid and top as well.

roflcoptarsJan 25, 20156 votes

J4 is busted.

Basically if you pick J4 vs an immobile mage mid ( Orianna , Xerath , Syndra , Anivia ), you pretty much auto-win by camping mid.

Even vs shit like Azir , Zed , Talon ) that can escape, just wait til they blow it and jam your ult down mid.

He's retardedly easy to pilot and makes immobile champs impossible to play. On top of that he's got a double gap close kit, crazy fucking damage, tankiness, and crowd control.

Yeah J4 is the epitome of balanced.

Antemos XaosJan 26, 20152 votes

Huh... its almost like Immobile Mages are countered by CC... And if the player blows their mobility initiating, or stays in an aggressive position after blowing it to escape, then they are accepting the risk of getting ganked and killed for having no escapes open.

its almost like champions have weaknesses, and bad plays will get you killed.

roflcoptarsJan 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Antemos Xaos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bnuOHmqG,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2015-01-26T15:37:43.570+0000)

Huh... its almost like Immobile Mages are countered by CC... And if the player blows their mobility initiating, or stays in an aggressive position after blowing it to escape, then they are accepting the risk of getting ganked and killed for having no escapes open.

its almost like champions have weaknesses, and bad plays will get you killed.

I've been on both sides of this match up, it's literally brainless for J4. Just ram your ult down mid and get free kills. J4 can ult the mid laner 3 times (rank 2 ult+) after he blows their flash, before it comes up again.

If "bad plays" means only having flash open every 5 minutes then yeah they got "outplayed" by me pressing R.

As if they even need to be in an aggressive positiong when your E+Q+R takes you across the entire lane.

J4 is going to fuck immobile picks ALWAYS because of his ult, but there's no reason he should do that plus deal ridiculous damage and having insane mobility, all the while being tanky. Riot said they don't want hard counters but J4 HARD counters immobility, in a time where just being mobility creep is very pronounced anyway. Literally 0 incentive to pick an immobile champ, which edges out a huge amount of the roster.

VDc0zCqe0wJan 27, 20151 votes

VI is equally ultra retarded in that aspect

Q from 19 kilometers, R, gg kill midlane

if you ain't got flash or a champ with dash you can't do anything

OneSlickPhonyJan 25, 20155 votes

If Jarvan got nerfed I'd be happy. If Lee Sin AND Jarvan got nerfed, I'd have a fucking party.

But we all know Riot's favorite #LC$BIGPLAY$ posterboy is immune to nerfs that actually mean anything.

MatezoideJan 26, 20155 votes

Yeah, Jarvan is going to get smacked hard by the nerf bat.

How dare a jungler step up against the great Lee Sin

DrukyulJan 25, 20153 votes

Even without the buff/debuffs J4 provides, he'd still be a decent pick compared to a lot of other junglers. That's a problem.

KnalxzJan 26, 20153 votes

I started playing J4 just before be became a priority pick and i feel very sad about the thought of him being nerfed. He feels really balanced IMO.

He can't just instantly delete people like Lee Sin, he has to have great timing with his Q and E to even be mobile an his ultimate is basically a really crappy snare.

If they were to nerf anything about him that I can say makes sense is his ults damage. There have been many times where a target has almost escaped me and i just say "fuck it." and ult them for 20% of their health.

But after the fear of him being nerfed after the first couple of months of playing him, i realized that they wouldn't nerf him because well everyone else was far weaker then him. Why nerf J4 when buffing all the others is what needs to be done.

gubigubiJan 25, 20152 votes

J4 has been strong ever since I started playing this game in 2012. He just got a little stronger when they buffed him a few patches back. I would take JarvanIV Over any jungler any day in the last 3 years.

Hellish ProphecyJan 25, 20152 votes

I build Jarvan not so douchey so that way I'm not "that" guy. I go full tank. Yes. I said it. See I started playing J4 a bit before I saw everyone begging for a nerf. And I did NOT like the bruiser or full AD build. Instead, I liked laughing like a maniac while I trapped the enemy team in my ult and watch as they can only focus me because the melees provided the CC and the ranged attacked from afar. So instead of being the asshole that does the damage and never dies, I'm the asshole that keeps them trapped near me with slows and CC while my team does the damage...holy shit...sounds a lot like a regular tank doesn't it? shots fired

Silents429Jan 26, 20152 votes

If J4 gets nerfed but Lee Sin doesn't I am giving up and going to stick with playing Strife full time.

I am utterly sick of Lee Sin being everywhere, I don't mind the fuzzy balance work with everyone else, The questionable reworks on some people, The crappy servers for east players, Jungle changes, Tanks being useless etc. But having this prick still dominate the game for like 3 seasons has to fucking end already.

AlphariteJan 26, 20152 votes

Jarvan's OP now? LOL, if almost every other jungler wasn't made complete trash, he wouldn't be overplayed ATM. rito has done the EXACT opposite of what their goal was. "Strategic diversity"? Maybe 5 junglers remain viable and mages gutted for absolutely no reason while assassins run rampant. Great fucking job Rito.