Is Riot ever going to address how Yasuo removes his opponents agency from the game?

Over Innsmouth·Nov 20, 2016·120 votes·7,811 views

A sufficiently skilled Yasuo turns the game into his to lose, not his enemies to win.

The Boards is usually rife with complaints (almost always justified) about Yasuo's design as a gameplay element, so I'll skip all that as there's probably a thread on the same page as this one about it.

Other Champions do have similar issues, but none as egregious as the wind wandering weeaboo. Laning against him, it's very easy to see who's a Yasuo main, and who's not. There's something to be said about Champion Mastery certainly, but something is desperately wrong when Champion Mastery warps the game in such a way that there's almost no interaction for your opponent.

297 Comments

AstroFerrari Nov 20, 201636 votes

Wind wandering weeabo LOLOL

Best princess EUNov 20, 201636 votes

Not really

Yasuo's kit favors him against ranged champions with windwall and sweeping blade, but i never saw a yasuo destroying a melee, or it's really rare.

What board doesn't tell you is that yasuo is immobile outside of the lane, doesn't have mr/lvl and does 25% less damage with crit.

Board also always summons the argument of frustration, when yasuo is balanced to underpowered right now.

Over InnsmouthNov 20, 201646 votes

I admire your desire to defend your champ, and I thank you for remaining civil, but it's a massive stretch to call Yasuo close to balanced and I have to disagree with you.

Yasuo doesnt have MR per level because in a lot of cases his passive shield serves him just as well, if not better. It's 25% less on Q crits, and 10% less on autoattacks, and double crit chance more than makes up for a rather insignificant damage loss. Calling Yasuo immobile outside of lane is hard to defend, since he can dash through anything targetable aside from wards, and there's more than enough of those in the game.

Yasuo's passive shield and how almost-nonexistent his CD's for Q and E make him hard for melees as well. Also getting to zone melee champs for 10 seconds with 3rd Q.

I like Yasuo's aesthetic and theme a lot, but I think his gameplay is terribly designed.

NightmareAmazoXNov 21, 20165 votes

Irelia Akali Kled Pantheon Poppy Cassiopeia Kennen Make the player playing Yasuo cry an ocean while in rage. Riven Fiora Darius Jax Jayce Kled Skill match up.

MontethePythonNov 21, 20164 votes

From what I've seen yasuo actually stomps cassiopia pretty hard because of her skill-shot nature, Annie however destroys him. Darius has a much heavier advantage than kled, and is hardly a skill match up. Darius stomps yasuo unless he misplays very hard. Kennen is also a bit of a skill matchup. Pantheon though, he shits on any yasuo's day, just my 2 cents.

NightmareAmazoXNov 21, 20168 votes

Wow. It's the opposite though, Cassiopeia has a ground silencing effect with her poison effect and can spam E, And ult you (You can't wind wall her ult) and do so much damage and kite you too, It's really not easy as you think. In team fights its hard to get to the her. Annie is very easy, Best thing about annie's rework is that you can actually dodge her ult+stun with flash now. Kennen destroys Yasuo because of his kit, The only way you beat kennen is if you bait out his ult and then run away & re engage if possible.

If you want a better explanation, You should see what RegisZz says about Yasuo's match-ups. His the 1# Ranked Challenger & a Yasuo main.

Fly Fish MasterNov 21, 20162 votes

Cass is just Cass. She can force a trade that is in her favor given the nature of her W.

Zero Skill TankNov 20, 201667 votes

Being favored against ranged champions in lane, duels or skirmishes is OK.

Disabling enemies ability to use half or more of their skillset simply because Yasuo is there is much less ok. If you are playing a Brand, you will never ever get to cast your Pyroclasm until somebody stuns Yasuo. This is just too much power you can't take from him no matter how much behind you put him.

but i never saw a yasuo destroying a melee, or it's really rare.

And that's just silly because just a few patches ago tanky Yasuo top destroying melee champions was a very common sight.

japan hate accNov 20, 20165 votes

Or you just bait it out? Pyroclasm isn't the only ability in the game.

MelledoneusNov 21, 201633 votes

Yasuo usually walks away until the CD is back, anyway...

TFBaamNov 21, 20162 votes

then u walk away when its up

MelledoneusNov 21, 201614 votes

It would be so much easier if CRIT ITEMS DIDN'T GIVE MOVEMENT SPEED.

Fly Fish MasterNov 21, 201615 votes

Yasuo can destroy any melee that isn't a bruiser. The only other exception to this rule is Darius, because Darius. Bruisers hurt Yasuo bad because they have dmg to back themselves up with some tankiness. Also, Yasuo disables enemies to land most of their kit was what he was designed to do because when he was released, he was suppose to be an AD midlaner. He still is, but he is also seeing tons of action at top lane too since Yasuo's ability to dominate in lane and outplay potential is huge.

Only Play DariusNov 21, 20164 votes

{quoted}

If you are playing a Brand, you will never ever get to cast your Pyroclasm until somebody stuns Yasuo.

Just like how if you play Zed you never ever get to ult anyone with Zhonyas until somebody forces them to activate it. Or if you're playing Darius you never ever get to ult someone with GA until somebody kills them. Don't get me started on Zilean and Kayle. There are frustrating counters everywhere, not just Yasuo.

Also, a good Brand will stomp Yasuo in lane.

Zero Skill TankNov 21, 20168 votes

Zed has different targets, and Dario doesn't even get his ult denied completely by GA. Both cases also require target to buy an item, and CD on the effect is way longer than CD on Death Mark or Noxian Guillotine. None of those cases are nearly as bad as Yasuo is for any champion with a crucial projectile.

Zil and Kayle are BS, but at least they are equally as bad for everyone. I never said that Yasuo is the only champion with problems. Still, windwall easily outperforms even Intervention in terms of negated damage.

YumaS2AstralNov 20, 201621 votes

I would argue that Yasuo does even better against melees, given how he can choose when he wants to trade with them. Because they are melee, Yasuo has an easier time denying them farm.

Also, Yasuo only does 25% less damage with crits on his Q, on his normal autos, it is 10% less damage. Which doesn't matter that much when you consider that Yasuo can get 100% crit chance with only 2 items, and then can focus on building more AD to make up for that loss of damage on crits.

RequiemsfireNov 20, 201621 votes

Not to mention his Q has a rather long range for a melee ability so if a melee tries to CS with their auto attacks, Yasuo can simply Q them. If they have a ranged ability to farm with, windwall. Then he has his tornado up and that's basically a zoning tool for most champions simply because that skill shot will chunk you for a fair bit, and finally during all of this none of his abilities have any cost, he's just spamming them incoherently with no real ability to punish him without going all in.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 21, 20164 votes

That's one of the biggest issues i have with yasuo: he can hold onto his tornado way too long. If you are rather a bad farmer in the early game like maokai for example he will push you under turret hold onto his Q and you can decide: going to AA that minion, get hit by tornado and miss? Or do i just miss the minion? And that's the whole problem with yasuo. He decides if you can outplay him or not.

Spicy RiceNov 21, 20163 votes

You do realize that he is a melee adc. His increased crit is his passive steroid, like love tap, or silver bolts, or Draven q, etc.

So please realize, that I as a yasuo main, would 100% trade double crit for silver bolts, or love tap, or headshot. All are much better steroids

PermabannedGarenNov 21, 201612 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uoeB06PU,comment-id=000300020001,timestamp=2016-11-21T03:20:33.835+0000)

You do realize that he is a melee adc. His increased crit is his passive steroid, like love tap, or silver bolts, or Draven q, etc.

So please realize, that I as a yasuo main, would 100% trade double crit for silver bolts, or love tap, or headshot. All are much better steroids

They're bad steroids for a melee champion, lol.

YumaS2AstralNov 21, 20168 votes

Also, the fact that he can get 100% crit with only 2 items means he can opt to either get more AD to make up for the loss of damage on crits, or he can build tanky.

In fact, many AD items allow him to get a lot of survivability while still giving damage, for example: item 3072 item 3812 item 3046 (this is not an AD item, but is one of the crit items that Yasuo can build if he wants even more survivability) item 3053 item 3156

Combine that with Warlord's Bloodlust, his passive, and his windwall, and you start to realize that Yasuo is tankier than he seems to be. Unless you perma CC him, but he can block many CCs with his windwall.

PermabannedGarenNov 21, 201611 votes

{quoted}

Also, the fact that he can get 100% crit with only 2 items means he can opt to either get more AD to make up for the loss of damage on crits, or he can build tanky.

Yes, you have grasped the purpose of a steroid. Steroids mean that champions have luxury within their builds for items they wouldn't normally be able to get.

It's why Vayne doesn't need a last whisper, and why Darius can go Black Cleaver into full tank and still be a threat. They have steroids that give them the benefits building certain damage items would give.

Also, a Yasuo that builds 100% crit into full tank (as in, actually full tank, not AD items that give some survivability) will do relatively negligible damage. Damage outscales tankiness, and the bulk he builds won't be as effective as getting more damage.

In fact, many AD items allow him to get a lot of survivability while still giving damage, for example: (this is not an AD item, but is one of the crit items that Yasuo can build if he wants even more survivability)

Combine that with Warlord's Bloodlust, his passive, and his windwall, and you start to realize that Yasuo is tankier than he seems to be. Unless you perma CC him, but he can block many CCs with his windwall.

Why shouldn't a champion be able to buy items that mitigate their weaknesses? Literally every MOBA allows this, and every champion can do it, and often does.

Yasuo gets some good damage items that give him a bit more survivability. It's no different from a mage getting zhonya's. What's the problem?

Hyrum GraffNov 21, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uoeB06PU,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-20T22:07:40.589+0000)

What board doesn't tell you is that yasuo is immobile outside of the lane

If your definition of "immobile" is "has no dashes or blinks" then this is true. If your definition is "moves slowly", not so much. Yasuo's MS is rather high.

NineTailedMysticNov 21, 20161 votes

Isn't it 350? Or 345 at worst on top of rushing Shiv or PD, Yasuo goes pretty quick.

Hyrum GraffNov 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Isn't it 350? Or 345 at worst on top of rushing Shiv or PD, Yasuo goes pretty quick.

Which would be OK on its own, but is a bit over the top given that he rushes a MS item.

RequiemsfireNov 20, 201623 votes

Don't forget the part where he can windwall in the opposite direction of the projectile and still block it. ;)

THE RlVER KlNGNov 21, 201621 votes

The whole concept of "Hey, I have gotten sufficiently good at x champion, so you are no longer allowed to play League of Legends" is toxic and horrible design, and it has gotten champs gutted in the past. Azir Kalista .

Maining and practicing a champion should of course grant you an intrinsic advantage when you are able to play well, because you know that champion's ins and outs. But it shouldn't mean that you remove all agency from your opponents, because that is truly unfair.

Vayne Riven Fiora Nidalee Ryze are other champions that come to mind that have or have had this problem.

HibekiNov 21, 201621 votes

This is the problem with CertainlyT

Fly Fish MasterNov 21, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Dextix LTNov 21, 201611 votes

I don't care if they are fun to play, CertanlyT champs are hell to play against. He may be creative, but he does not know kit balance for shit.

manbearswineNov 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uoeB06PU,comment-id=000e000000000002,timestamp=2016-11-21T07:21:30.706+0000)

I don't care if they are fun to play, CertanlyT champs are hell to play against. He may be creative, but he does not know kit balance for shit.

I mean just because most of his champions are absolute crap doesn't mean all of them are. Take thresh for example, sure on release he was an overloaded abomination, but then we released braum, kench, bard, and now he is looking pretty sensible.

Dextix LTNov 21, 20165 votes

The only really balanced champion of his is zyra, that is all. Thresh is still extremelly overloaded when compared to even the newer supports, the only reason thresh is still not the only support played is the constant nerfs of his numbers or skills.

None of CertainlyBroken kits besides zyra are balanced.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 21, 20166 votes

Zyra ? Balanced? The "support" who even against pros deals more dmg than actual carries? Lul.

Dextix LTNov 21, 20163 votes

I was talking about her kit, not numbers, because those are busted currently.

She and brand "supports" who can solo kill adc's because of their numbers alone make my life as a support a living hell.

MrWasjigNov 21, 20164 votes

He's a fantastic designer....just not for a heavily competitive PvP game!

Over InnsmouthNov 21, 20168 votes

IMO, Fiora's issue is that she has %health true damage, which in my mind is a stupid mechanic that really shouldnt exist on a damage-dealers kit. That, and her W grants immunity from all directions rather than just the cast one, are my only problems with her. Ryze isnt really an example, because even a monkey with arthritis could steamroll a lane as Ryze.

Vayne is more an example of what happens when many, many bad design ideas make it all onto one Champion. A spammable (albeit short) dash with a damage buff attached to it that can crit, %health true damage applying on AAs, a free movespeed buff that triples when ulting, said ult giving a massive AD steroid, and undetectable invisibility.

Totally right about Riven and Nidalee though. I always laugh when people try to defend Riven's design. Four dashes, two forms of hard cc, an AD scaling shield, an AD steroid, an AoE AD nuke execute, and basically nonexistent cooldowns.

giggles

AHeroNamedHawkeNov 20, 20169 votes

For the hundredth thread this week, can you explain how Yasuo scales the hardest with skill in the entire game, and completely removes the ability to outplay him, yet was not picked a single time by the best players at the World Championship?

EschetonNov 21, 201618 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uoeB06PU,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-20T22:28:34.324+0000)

For the hundredth thread this week, can you explain how Yasuo scales the hardest with skill in the entire game, and completely removes the ability to outplay him, yet was not picked a single time by the best players at the World Championship?

Because 5 people going 'yasuo, yasuo, yasuo, Yasuo, yas, yas, yas, I STUNNED HIM, go go go go go !" doesn't happen in solo Q.

AHeroNamedHawkeNov 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Because 5 people going 'yasuo, yasuo, yasuo, Yasuo, yas, yas, yas, I STUNNED HIM, go go go go go !" doesn't happen in solo Q.

CCing and killing a priority target is literally the most basic teamfight mechanic in this game

I don't know what kind of dumpster you live in, but people figure that out around silver 2

Battlecast SonaNov 21, 201614 votes

i don't know what game you're playing, but go watch a Challenger or Master or Diamond tier streamer. They still have problems with target prioritization.

Just because everyone recognizes you need to CC and kill a priority target doesn't mean everyone agrees on who the priority target is. Comparing a team of 5 pro players to a team of 5 random players (even if they're Challenger) is literally no comparison - the 5 Challengers would get destroyed by just about any pro team unless they were also on comms in a 5stack.

GULAG 4 UNov 21, 20161 votes

wait, that is why Yasuo is P/B in high elo unlike graves/nidalee/lee sin right? RIGHT???

Battlecast SonaNov 21, 201610 votes

I actually didn't even say the word Yasuo in my post. Or mention a specific champion or problems I have with any champions. At all. Nice try though, 10/10 reading comprehension.

japan hate accNov 20, 20162 votes

Explain to me how this is different than other champions, say Gangplank. He's mechanically difficult, has great late game, it's easy to tell who's good at him or not, he can easily solo carry the game to the point where its on him to win or lose it, and his W removes cc, which would nullify half or more of Amumu's kit, or Nautilus, or Leona. Why aren't people complaining about him?

Because everyone's complaining about Yasuo. He really isn't that bad.

TheHurricaneGamrNov 20, 201616 votes

Probably has something to do with the fact that he is rather immobile, has no defensive tools in his kit (aside from his w, but is a rather selfish and conditional defensive tool), no hard CC in his kit, and ACTUALLY HAS A WEAK EARLY GAME. In addition, he has actually received multiple nerfs and has clear weaknesses to work around. Yasuo, on the other hand, is strong at all stages of the game, and gives the average opponent no way play around a good Yasuo's weaknesses.

Rock MDNov 21, 201618 votes

{quoted}

Explain to me how this is different than other champions, say Gangplank. He's mechanically difficult, has great late game, it's easy to tell who's good at him or not, he can easily solo carry the game to the point where its on him to win or lose it, and his W removes cc, which would nullify half or more of Amumu's kit, or Nautilus, or Leona. Why aren't people complaining about him?

Because everyone's complaining about Yasuo. He really isn't that bad.

It isn't different.

That's why Gangplank ate nerf after nerf after nerf and is still a playable champion.

manbearswineNov 21, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uoeB06PU,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2016-11-21T01:47:45.120+0000)

It isn't different.

That's why Gangplank ate nerf after nerf after nerf and is still a playable champion.

It is different. Gankplank is very "heavy" kit wise, don't get me wrong, but even when played well there's room for you to outplay him, if yasuo can pass his easy reflex checks your kit doesn't work, no matter how good you are.

GULAG 4 UNov 21, 20162 votes

If that was true, why did yasuo have 0 spotlight in worlds? I'm more than certain pros would be able to abuse his "It's up to me if u win or not" bs if it actually was that way.

Conclusion? It's not that way. Yasuo isn't Azir/kalista/lee sin, he doesn't warp competitive simply _by existing. _

Over InnsmouthNov 21, 201612 votes

Competitive isnt the only aspect of the game.

GULAG 4 UNov 21, 20165 votes

it isn't, but if the pros aren't even able to do the things you've said, no one can. Still a nicely constructed and worded post.

Over InnsmouthNov 21, 20169 votes

Well thank you.

Granted, the pros exist in an environment where the game is different enough that - as someone who doesnt regularly spectate pro play - I barely recognize it. Azir and Kalista overperformed because their core gameplay supports a team-setting (as well as having some fundamental design issues) and Lee Sin is immune to the nerfbat. Yasuo is a bit more selfish than any of those three.