The 'Fighter Problem' has got me thinking

Rebonack··31 votes·3,463 views

To reiterate for those unfamiliar. The Fighter Problem, simply put, is that they're competing with Rangers, Tanks, AND Assassins in terms of both relevance and team role. If Rangers are the ranged sustain damage guys, then how do you make melee sustained damage guys desirable? If you just give them way more damage, then that tends to leave people feeling icky when their whole team gets aced by pre-nerfs Samurai Bob. How about making them more durable Assassins? Nope, dealing with someone who has high damage while being durable AND slippery is hell. Tanks with more damage? Then why would you want to use an actual Tank if a Fighter is just as durable while having similar CC and better damage?

Let's break things down a bit. What are the things champions do?

Attrition damage is pretty straight forward. It's typically augmented with auto-attack steroids of various kinds, but it can also be boosted by AoE damage over time effects. There are a few notable outliers like Ryze and Cass. You want to be careful about giving a champion high burst AND high attrition because it means they can erase someone, and then roll over the top of everyone else. Champions with that sort of play style (Kat, Akali, Samurai Bob, Riven) have typically run into balance issues over the years.

Burst damage is the counterpart to the above, the archetypical example involving the act of throwing fire and bears at people. As long as Tibbers is up Annie has a pretty solid source of attrition damage, but when you compare it to someone like late game Graves there's no contest. The purpose of burst is to either instantly erase a target completely (sup, Veigar) or to chunk several folks enough that your buddies can polish them off (hey Brand). Burst is really touchy since vanishing in a cloud of damage leaves people wondering what the hell just happened.

Utility is kind of a grab-bag of various effects that help your team or hinder your foes. Shields, heals, movespeed buffs, helpful steroids both offensive and defensive, and even nerfing the defense or offense of enemies. Utility acts as a force multiplier for your team, augmenting their effectiveness in combat. Ostensibly, all a Support is at heart is a Mage with damage dialed down and utility dialed up. Most of the time. Again, we have outliers like Orianna who boast fairly high utility AND damage (and control, we'll get there next).

Control comes in two main flavors, crowd control and area control. CC is your sundry list of effects that directly inhibit a champion's ability to function. Slow, silence, stun, root, so on and so forth. AC, on the other hand, creates an area of 'don't go here'. It can do this directly with effects like Anivia's wall or indirectly with effects like her Ult. A lot of Tanks (or tanky Fighters) have area control effects that are centered on them (Tree, Amumu, Sej, Shy, and many others).

Soak is simply how well a champion can eat damage and keep on ticking and can be divided into hard defense vs sustain. The former consists of all the various defensive steroids (including Tenacity) in the game while the latter covers self-heals, heals over time, and lifesteal/spellvamp. For the sake of simplicity, we'll include mana-sustain abilities (or manaless kits) under the general heading of sustain since both are meant to mitigate attrition.

Threat is how large of an area of influence a champion has, basically how large of an area a champion can threaten enemy champions within. Ranged auto-attacks are the more persistent form of threat, though ranged abilities are certainly worth taking into account as well. Some champions like Blitz and Thresh can zone out opponents with the mere threat of their reach so long as their respective Qs are off cooldown. Once the ability is whiffed, their threat drops considerably for a while. Typically combining high threat with high mobility leads to a great deal of frustration, more on that in a moment.

Mobility is a measure of how effectively a champion can move around the map both in and out of combat. Dashes, flashes, movespeed buffs, and teleports all fall under this category. We'll also include here abilities that allow a champion to avoid attacks, including spellshields, invisibility, and brief windows of invulnerability/untargetability. When a champion boasts high mobility in addition to high threat they can become incredibly oppressive for champions who are lacking in those aspects to deal with.

Okay, great, so what does that have to do with the Fighter Problem? Well, what do the other classes focus on, typically?

Mages are primarily (AoE)Burst and secondarily Control and Threat. Rangers are primarily Threat and secondarily Attrition and Mobility. Assassins are primarily Mobility and secondarily a strong mix of both Burst and Attrition. Supports are primarily Utility and secondarily Control and Threat Tanks are primarily Control and secondarily Soak and either Attrition or Burst damage depending on the Tank. A few Tanks sport both (Amumu and Sej) but they have really weak Soak to make up for it.

So what about Fighters? Well, how about we look at the three Fighters who are most successful right now (Lee, Vi, and Jman) and see what they're doing for their team.

All three of them have strong Attrition and Burst. They all provide varying degrees of Utility (resist shreds, friendly buffs, true sight). They all have amazing Control. They all have at least one means of Soaking damage (with both hard defense AND sustain on Lee). They all have incredible Mobility. The only thing they don't have is persistent long-range Threat, but because each of them have two two dashes they can easily reposition to place foes in their Threat range.

Fighters exist in a limbo between the other five classes. Either they need to be a jack-of-all-trades, or they end up as a melee hybrid of two (or more) of the other classes. They have no focus. So what does Riot need to do if they're ever going to fix the Fighter Problem? They need to nail down what a Fighter's three main contributions are to their team and (with obvious rule-breakers to keep things interesting) stick to those aspects.

Soak is important, I think. It's what a Fighter shares with Tanks and what distinguishes them from Assassins. Mobility is also important and Fighters somewhat lacking in the Mobility department (hi there Olaf) should be significantly compensated for it. That leaves one aspect left. And it should either be Attrition or Burst. When a Fighter boasts both you get horrifying Assassin/Tanks like the current three most popular Junglers.

So there you go. That's how we fix the Fighter problem.

Fighters get Burst OR Attrition, Soak, and Mobility. Leave the double-dipped damage to Assassins and the heavy Control to Tanks.

Fighters like Jman and Vi should probably be pushed in a more Tank-y direction since Control is so central to their kit (less Attrition, more Soak). Most other Fighters would require some minor tweaking and remaking. Lee should probably have all the Soak aspects of his W removed and the ability remade into a purely Assassin-type Mobility skill so he can keep making his #BigPlays without being a Mage/Support/Fighter/Assassin/Tank/Jungler who excels at everything.

There! Lots of rambling and a few real solutions offered. What do you guys think, what should the primary team role of Fighters be? Should they even have one, or should they waffle back and forth between Damage and Soak depending on the Fighter?

EDIT!

The question keeps coming up about the fact that 'Fighters' should probably be broken down into several different unique classes of champions since they're so different in terms of what they do. I've broken them down into several sets that I think cover all the bases pretty well.

Bruisers are super tanky, but a bit lacking in the hard CC department. Garen, Shy, Nasus, Mundo and friends go here. Darius would probably fit here, too, even though his defensive level isn't that great. Fighter/Tank would be a good way to describe them.

Peelers are the next step down. They've got much better CC than the above and often aren't quite as tanky. Jax, Panth, Wukong, Irelia, Aatrox, and a ton of other champions fit into this category. If 'Fighters' did get broken up, I would probably vote for this group keeping the name 'Fighter'. They are, I feel, the healthy form of 'jack of all trades'.

Strikers are more or less melee-Rangers who are trading out persistent long-range Threat for TONS OF ATTRITION DAMAGE. Yi, Try, Fiora, and friends go here. Most of these champions would be classified as Fighter/Assassins right now.

Skirmishers are champions who provide Assassin-level mobility with with solid damage and Soak. Some of them aren't that bad (Riven) while others are just a tad bit overloaded right now (hey there Jman). Jayce sorta fits in here as well, though I would probably peg him as a Ranger/Assassin/Fighter. It would probably be healthy for champions like Jman, Vi, Lee, and Jayce if they got their kits focused rather than just giving them all the things. As it happens, Nidalee sorta goes here as well, Trinity/Tanky Nid in particular.

71 Comments

KidSpectre16 votes

One model for the fighter that I like is that of the "drain tank." Champions like Warwick and Aatrox. They do good damage as long as they are attacking, and since they have very strong drain they can survive for quite a while. However, if they can't hit things, their survival takes a huge hit. I also like abilities like Vi's passive shield, and even Diana's shield, both of which benefit you most in the thick of a fight (which is where a fighter should be, of course.)

Rebonack4 votes

{quoted}

One model for the fighter that I like is that of the "drain tank." Champions like Warwick and Aatrox.

Speaking of! I think it might be a decent idea to just run our way through the game's Fighters one at a time and poke them a bit.

Aatrox Man, this guy. Him and Irelia, these two are THE pair of poster-children for Generic Fighter McBruiserson. His kit is all over the place. He's got Attrition, Burst, Soak, Mobility, and Control. The only thing he's missing to put him in the same 'do ALL THE THINGS!' category as Lee/Vi/Jman is his lack of Utility. Worst of all? Every single one of those attributes is too shitty for him to be worth picking. This is a champion who, without question, suffers from kit overload.

Displacements mess up his Mobility ability due to its long windup. His Soak is totally contingent on people allowing him to attack them and Ignite (and the ever-present Morello's) ruins his Soak as well. When you get right down to it, Aatrox is just a crappy version of AP Xin. Honestly, I think the best route to go with Aatrox is to push him more in the direction of a Tank, specifically a sustain Tank. Imagine he dropped the IAS boost on his Ult and got a MR/Armor boost instead along with an AoE Fear. Would that not be awesome? I think that would be pretty awesome.

Jump in, whack a few times, pop Ult, then use the slow to chase. Pretty solid initiate if you ask me.

What do you guys think? What's holding Aatrox down? Could he use some kit-focusing?

Dark Trennow7 votes

I have mained Aatrox since his first free week. Do not, do not make him a tank. If he were to become a tank, his whole kit would need a rehaul except maybe his Q. None of his other abilities really provide tankyness other than his passive which he will never fill without damage capability. On top of that his base stats, but especially his defensive stats suck. He needs better offensive capabilities with a more solid engage that isn't interrupted by every other form of cc in the game. His kit should be put back in the offensive spectrum with some E buffs and proc remains available when he comes out of passive./

Rebonack3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Trennow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uOoOjE1b,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-02-07T21:12:05.247+0000)

I have mained Aatrox since his first free week. Do not, do not make him a tank. If he were to become a tank, his whole kit would need a rehaul except maybe his Q. None of his other abilities really provide tankyness other than his passive which he will never fill without damage capability. On top of that his base stats, but especially his defensive stats suck. He needs better offensive capabilities with a more solid engage that isn't interrupted by every other form of cc in the game. His kit should be put back in the offensive spectrum with some E buffs and proc remains available when he comes out of passive./

Okay, serious question here.

What does Aatrox bring to the table that Wolfy, Irelia, and Xin don't? They all have Soak/sustain. They all have decent Mobility. They all have good Attrition damage with a little bit of Burst. Wolfy brings his suppress, Irelia her True Damage, and Xin sticks better than anyone else in the game. What makes Aatrox stand out? What can he do that's unique from the other Drain-Tank type champions? Is it just his mini-GA Innate?

Do you think he needs to be focused? Because it seems to me that his kit being all over the place is hurting him.

Messaiga6 votes

Aatrox currently does not have any reason to be picked over WW, Irelia, and Xin. He does not have anything really unique to him and his kit is just kind of overloaded with bland stuff. He currently competes for the role of split-pushing/dueling bruiser and is failing on that because other champions already dominate that category (Jax, Irelia, Xin, Nasus, Trundle, etc). He needs something unique, that would set him apart from other champions (what can Aatrox do that nobody else does?).

Looking at his lore, it appears to me that he shouldn't be so focused as a duelist anyway and should have a much stronger presence in team-fights. It's described that he can turn the tide of a battle, but unless you're ahead I imagine that such a thing will not occur. He's also got an unhealthy play-style which is partially why Riot is currently keeping him on the weaker end (Max E and poke your opponent until you can all in, keep yourself topped off with your Blood Thirst. Huge lack of counterplay here other than dodge every Blades of Torment). He most definitely needs a kit rework (some elements of his kit could stand to remain). Here's what I think would be a fitting (and unique) Ultimate for him.

R - Massacre: Aatrox inspires a lust to fight in his allies, causing Aatrox and nearby allied champions (Area of 800 units) to heal for X%/X%/X% of damage dealt to enemy champions from any source. Additionally, Aatrox gains 175 attack range and his auto-attacks deal 50%/62.5%/75% (If Blood Price procs it is also added onto this damage) of their damage as physical damage in an AOE around his primary target (that synergy with Hydra, it's insane). Massacre lasts for 8 seconds, increasing by 2 seconds for every champion kill or assist.

As for his basic kit I imagine Dark Flight could stay (probably stands to be buffed a bit too) and the on-hit third proc of Blood Price could be fitted somewhere (literally it wouldn't have to change at all). He'd probably have a form of sustain built into his basic kit somewhere to make up for HP costs as well, but it would not be nearly as strong as current Blood Thirst.

Just imagine Aatrox diving into a teamfight, using Massacre, and (enemy champions at about 80% HP) even though his team is low (35% HP on average), his teammates follow up (with most of their spells ready) and for reference, we'll say that Annie lands a (~500 AP) Tibbers on 3 people.

Suddenly both teams are sitting at 50% HP on average, with Aatrox's Ult keeping his team alive as they keep throwing damage onto his opponents (Lets say if Massacre healed for 20% of damage dealt to enemy champions from any source, and that Annie landed her Tibbers on those 3 champions, his team would instantly heal for about 360 HP. Then there's the DPS from yourself and your ADC which would probably heal everybody for at least 80 HP each second).

What do you guys think? Does it sound fitting for Aatrox? I know it's definitely unique (The only champion that's ever had a similar Ultimate was old Sion). I find it fits the whole turn the tide of a battle as well as the drain tanking fantasy well. And to clarify, Aatrox should not be a tank. In my opinion, he should be a fighter with a focus on (AOE) Attrition, and Soak (by healing, A.K.A. Drain Tanking), while having moderate mobility and control (basically Dark Flight).

Dark Trennow2 votes

it wouldn't hurt him to be focused on what he does best, which is a sustain, non critting auto attack melee fighter. Of course, to do this you again run into the other areas of his kit that neglect or detract from this central theme. While all his abilities synergize, they do need a bigger retooling. I have found all his abilities to be useful, even the attack range extension on his ult many, many, times. If you want to really re center him, IMO he should have lower health costs, (just one Q and one E is 15%) higher base attack damage, higher base attack speed, an ult that does physical damage that offers survivability in the form of a restore. (like Messaiga said, That is probably one of the best suggestions i have seen for it.)

If RIot wants to keep his low base stats for that much sustain fine, but at least make his sustain more reliable.

Messaiga1 votes

From how I view, Aatrox's sustain should be just enough to compensate his health costs (Zac's passive is a great example of this. Using an ability allows him to heal for the health that the ability costed and if below 100% HP, a missing amount of HP as well), and his in-combat sustain would come from use of his Ultimate. That way they can properly balance his laning phase and Aatrox can keep his drain-tanking.

About his base stats, a good route to go would be to increase his base HP (not growth/per level, the base amount he has at level one) which would put him at similar health levels as Lee Sin or Shen throughout the game (potentially slightly lower, but not too big of a disparity) and increase his base attack speed to around .679. At level one the difference would only be like 0.2%, at level 18 this would be an increase of 4%. This allows him to build less attack speed items (compensating that he no longer has 2 attack speed steroids, which was kinda odd anyway).

I'm gonna be honest, I've had an Aatrox rework laid out in a .txt for a long time but I haven't really decided to share it with boards, that's where the concept of Massacre I put in my other post came from anyway (and it was inspired by a thread about Aatrox from OuterRaven, thread's called Reforging the Darkin Blade on RoG).

Skias8 votes

I don't know if anyone remembers Vlad S2, but remember what a nightmare is born by an overpowered Drain Tank with no weaknesses. We have very few sources of Grievous Wounds.

terkmc21 votes

The drain tank. Its very hard to balance, since if you push it too high, and he can out heal your dps, he is unstoppable, whether its too low, the drain tank dies with a sneeze.

Skias11 votes

You understand it perfectly. It's a dangerous archetype.

NinjaFifer2 votes

And how do you balance its ability to survive in a teamfight vs. a duel? If you've got the Drain to survive a 3 man assault for several seconds, (reasonable expectation for a true Drain Tank in a teamfight) how can just 1 person compete in a duel?

I agree with you, drain tanks are pretty unhealthy for the game just because of their difficulty to balance.

Drukyul2 votes

Drain tank is pretty much how every fighter is these days. Build a lifesteal item + 1 tank item, and be far tankier than any actual tank in the game because lifesteal is so broken.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Drain tank is pretty much how every fighter is these days. Build a lifesteal item + 1 tank item, and be far tankier than any actual tank in the game because lifesteal is so broken.

The Elixir of Wrath is probably contributing to this. It basically provides champions with 10% Lifesteal/Spellvamp on anything that deals physical damage. I'm pretty sure it even triggers off the damage from BotRK's passive.

aperson17 votes

Please stop including joke options. It dilutes the poll results.

NinjaFifer2 votes

Honestly, the poll doesn't matter at all. The post is well written and brings up many solid ideas. Riot's not going to look at the poll and say "Hey, that's the direction our customers want us to take fighters! Let's do it!" They're set in their ways and are going to do what they want to do. But, if we can get idea seeds like these planted in a couple of the developer's heads, we might, just maybe, see some changes we actually can be happy about.

redniwediS5 votes

When did people start calling marksmen rangers? Or am I understanding things incorrectly?

Rebonack9 votes

{quoted}

When did people start calling marksmen rangers? Or am I understanding things incorrectly?

I've been calling them that since Beta. Same with Fighters, who used to be 'Tanky DPS' or just 'Melee DPS'.

puts on hipster glasses

Frikgeek2 votes

Tanky deeps building metagolem. Good times(for the tanky deeps, of course).

Irelia Bot4 votes

{quoted}

When did people start calling marksmen rangers? Or am I understanding things incorrectly?

I call them siege bitch because it more clearly defines what their power in a team should be mainly focused on instead of killing the enemy tank with 300 armor and 4000 health in 6 shots or less.

Rebonack5 votes

On a somewhat related note, I think it's probably worth while to outline the major sub-categories of Fighters.

Everyone knows about Bruisers. These guys are tanky as balls, have pretty solid base damage, and are lacking in the hard CC department. Classic examples include Mundo, Shyvana, Garen, and Nasus. The thing that makes these champions fun is that you can feel like an unstoppable juggernaut stomping your way through the enemy team. These champions should boast the highest Soak among Fighters. Special mention goes to Darius, who gets built like a Bruiser even though he's pretty lacking in the defense department. The rest of his kit certainly fits into the Bruiser category, though.

A Peeler is a step up from a Bruiser in the CC department. I've also seen the term 'Off-Tank' thrown around for them. These are champions who are tanky and hurt when they bop you in addition to having some crowd control to shut down priority targets, but they lack the hard initiate that many true Tanks have. Generally speaking, they have less defense than a Bruiser and less offense than a Striker. Blitz, Irelia, Renekton, Aatrox, Jax, and many, many more all fall into this category. These champions are pretty strong generalists.

A Striker is more or less the melee equivalent of a Ranger who trades persistent Threat for TONS OF DAMAGE. These guys include Yi and friends and have traditionally been one of the most obnoxious classes of champions to balance since they stomp low-skill players hard if they even begin to approach balanced at high levels of play. I'm kind of surprised Riot hasn't just remade them all into true Assassins yet.

The Skirmisher is a champion that combines decent damage and durability with Assassin-level mobility. Remember when Kha's Ult gave him 50% damage reduction? Yeah, like that. Riven sorta skirts this category. So does Jayce. So did Eve before she got dumpstered and then remade. Jman, Lee, and Vi all fit quite comfortably into it, though they all boast Utility as well because reasons. Champions that are durable and slippery can be annoying to play against, but I would argue that champions with massive Threat range that are slippery are far worse when they're strong. Remember when Trinity/Tanky Nid was super-popular? That would be another example of a Skirmisher.

Brenticus121 votes

Doesn't Darius and Pantheon fall under Bruiser and Hecarim fall under Peeler? Also I believe Jayce falls under Skirmisher.

AD Caster isn't even a relevant term here, they're just AD champs that rely on their skills that scale off of AD rather than AAs (Zed, Talon, Rengar).

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't Darius and Pantheon fall under Bruiser and Hecarim fall under Peeler? Also I believe Jayce falls under Skirmisher.

AD Caster isn't even a relevant term here, they're just AD champs that rely on their skills that scale off of AD rather than AAs (Zed, Talon, Rengar).

Yeah, I'm kinda left pondering this myself. I suppose Panth and Hec could potentially be stuffed into the Peeler category, but their defensive abilities are pretty weak. I wouldn't hesitate to call Darius a Bruiser if not for the fact that he has no defensive steroid at all. All his ability to Soak damage comes from items and his attack speed slow. Is that good enough to be called a Bruiser? I dunno, maybe? Darius is an outlier in this regard, certainly.

Jayce is just weird. He's basically nothing but Burst, though due to his ranged auto-attacks he can build like an actual Ranger and get his Attrition damage with the %armor shred to augment it. He's another one of those Jack-of-all-trades abominations with Mobility, Utility, both damage styles, Control, and ranged Threat. I don't think his Mobility is quite strong enough to place him in the same league as Lee, Vi, and Jman, but he's pretty darn close.

Thanks for that comment, I think I'll go edit =P

Brenticus121 votes

A right, Panth is more of a peeler now that I think about it. Thanks for the correction.

And yeah I don't really know about Darius since unlike other Bruisers he doesn't have any defensive steroids in his kit (Even Panth has his shield) but his most optimal build is definitely more bruiser-like so I guess he's an exception.

And while Hecarim has some mediocre defensive stats, his peel is quite good for a fighter (Fear, knockback) and is quite game changing.

Done254 votes

I think that Fighters should mainly focus on their auto attack boosting nature. Garen's Decisive Strike, Trundle's Chomp, Xin's Three Talon Strike, Yi's Double Strike+ Wuju Stlye, The on hit/attack nature of Udyr's stances, Fizz's Seastone Trident, Gangplank's Parrrley, etc.

They're really not too different from Marksmen/Rangers other than their upclose and personal play style. Which is fine. It would be broken as hell if Caitlyn had Udry's on demand stun from Bear Stance.

Ferezilla3 votes

I picked waffling like a walrus only because it sounds funny.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

I love how as of right now 114/164 votes are for the troll option.

LilxPaprika2 votes

Fighters should be more soak or sustain. Shields/life steals. Their damage should be stable. They shine by being reliable low risk semi front liners. As a fighter your source of defensiveness is usually improved with offensive items. Whereas tanks typical derive their offensiveness by way of building more tankyness.

So to answer you poll. I'd say 1&2 combined. You get more soaking power with more ap ad on jax's ultimate for example. Riven gets bigger shield with more ad. Etc

Skias2 votes

In my opinion a Fighter should not be based on sustain through lifesteal but light mitigation through barriers. Moderate damage over time. CC should be stripped down and left to the tanks.

TheRainInSpain2 votes

Honestly, the unwillingness to classify champions for a full rotation of their kit is the reason why "Fighters" are in the situation they are in, and why certain champions are classified as things they are not.

The classification should have been:

  1. Ranged or Melee -- Pretty simple to figure out. Either you're a ranged champion, or a melee champion.

  2. AD or AP or Hybrid (Mixed) -- Also pretty simple to figure out. Hybrid champions deal nearly equal amounts of physical and magic damage (10% difference either way, so a 60% magic/40% physical champion is still a Hybrid champion)

  3. Primary attribute accounts for 60% of the kit. Secondary attribute accounts for 40% of the kit.

--3a. Assassins are known for burst damage, positioning requirements, gap closers, and or stealth. (A Bruiser/Assassin can be a bruiser type champion with stealth, such as WuKong)

--3b. Fighters deal sustained damage, primarily through auto attacks, but can also be done through spammable spells. (A Mage/Fighter can be a mage that has very spammable spells like Ryze) Fighters in general also like to be closer to the fight, rather than sniping from afar. A Fighter may also be fairly durable, but lacks CC in his normal abilities. Only signature CC abilities like Warwick's Suppression Depression Ultimate is allowed.

--3c. Bruisers are between Fighters and Guardians, having significant durability, decent damage output, and soft CC. However, they lack the full damage potential of Fighters and the full tank potential of Guardians. Bruisers can be ranged or melee, but tend to be melee. Urgot is a ranged AD Bruiser/Marksman.

--3d. Guardians (renamed from tank, because all tanks eventually die) are champions designed to protect their teammates and hopefully prevent death. Guardians are defined by having very little comparative damage, but very high amounts of CC. They're always full tank, and rely on their team to fulfill the damage they lack.

--3e. Support champions (not the team role) have team wide utility or abilities that buff allied champions. Pretty simple.

--3f. Mages are champions that rely almost entirely on spells. They can be entirely melee (such as Rumble and Mordekaiser), but can have additional attributes. A Guardian/Mage can exist. Aka: Cho'Gath. Mage/Bruiser has Rumble. Mage/Marksman has Twisted Fate. Mage/Support has Morgana.

--3g. Marksman is a special niche for ranged auto attackers, specifically for those that want to stay at range and not do anything fancy. Such as Caitlyn and Ashe. Ranged AD auto attackers like Vayne would actually be "Fighter/Assassin", not Marksman/Assassin.

Edit: It seems using < > to identify things actually makes the Board delete it.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

I think the core problem with fighters is that the class is way too broad. You shouldn't be able to call Darius, Fiora, Kayle, Tryndamere, and Wukong the same kind of thing. They're too different. They should split the class into several different groups and clarify what the strengths and weaknesses of those groups are.

For example, we could create a "duelist" class that specializes in 1v1 combat. They do tons of damage and have mechanics that let them survive long enough in solo combat to get the kill, but if there's peel around they probably aren't going to finish the job. Champions like Fiora, Master Yi, and Tryndamere go in here.

Another example class is "brawler", which is a dude that likes being in the middle of a fight dealing and taking a bunch of damage. Guys like Gragas, Darius, and Trundle go in here. These guys aren't very good at diving or killing targets in solo combat like the duelists are. In exchange, they're almost as durable as tanks and they do sustained damage if you stay in their reach. They're more of a zone control sort of thing, they make sure opposing squishy targets don't come to this part of the fight.

After you've come up with 3 or 4 subclasses for the fighter, and defined their roles, you'll need to rework the champions that don't really fit in the new boxes. For example, what is Fiora's AoE teamfighting ult doing on a duelist?

It's a lot of work, to be sure, but I think breaking up the fighter class is a good way to get out of this "jack of all trades" feeling you get from the class today.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I think the core problem with fighters is that the class is way too broad. You shouldn't be able to call Darius, Fiora, Kayle, Tryndamere, and Wukong the same kind of thing. They're too different. They should split the class into several different groups and clarify what the strengths and weaknesses of those groups are.

For example, we could create a "duelist" class that specializes in 1v1 combat. They do tons of damage and have mechanics that let them survive long enough in solo combat to get the kill, but if there's peel around they probably aren't going to finish the job. Champions like Fiora, Master Yi, and Tryndamere go in here.

Another example class is "brawler", which is a dude that likes being in the middle of a fight dealing and taking a bunch of damage. Guys like Gragas, Darius, and Trundle go in here. These guys aren't very good at diving or killing targets in solo combat like the duelists are. In exchange, they're almost as durable as tanks and they do sustained damage if you stay in their reach. They're more of a zone control sort of thing, they make sure opposing squishy targets don't come to this part of the fight.

After you've come up with 3 or 4 subclasses for the fighter, and defined their roles, you'll need to rework the champions that don't really fit in the new boxes. For example, what is Fiora's AoE teamfighting ult doing on a duelist?

It's a lot of work, to be sure, but I think breaking up the fighter class is a good way to get out of this "jack of all trades" feeling you get from the class today.

I actually had a post on this a few pages back, it might be a decent idea to add it into the opening post. I would personally identify four main flavors of 'Fighters'.

Bruisers are super tanky, but a bit lacking in the hard CC department. Garen, Shy, Nasus, Mundo and friends go here. Darius would probably fit here, too, even though his defensive level isn't that great. Fighter/Tank would be a good way to describe them.

Peelers are the next step down. They've got much better CC than the above and often aren't quite as tanky. Jax, Panth, Wukong, Irelia, Aatrox, and a ton of other champions fit into this category. If 'Fighters' did get broken up, I would probably vote for just calling this specific category Fighters.

Strikers are more or less melee-Rangers who are trading out persistent long-range Threat for TONS OF ATTRITION DAMAGE. Yi, Try, Fiora, and friends go here. Fighter/Assassin fits here pretty well, right?

Skirmishers are champions who provide Assassin-level mobility with with solid damage and Soak. Some of them aren't that bad (Riven) while others are just a tad bit overloaded right now (hey there Jman). Jayce sorta fits in here as well, though I would probably peg him as a Ranger/Assassin/Fighter. It would probably be healthy for champions like Jman, Vi, Lee, and Jayce if they got their kits focused rather than just giving them all the things.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well Shy and Nasus doesn't have all that much that makes them tanky though Garen got his W I guess

Saixos1 votes

I actually really dislike this way of thinking about the problem. The way I'd go about it is that those attributes are attributes that the champions have, but they pick and choose from those attributes according to the ingame situation by adjusting their items. Whether they're tanky or deal burst damage or their level of utility ought to come from their items. I'd support fighters being pushed into a more jack of all trades position for this. The primary team role for fighters should be damage OR soak, depending on how they're doing in the game at the moment and what their team needs. Let them make an educated choice, adjust their build and playstyle, adds depth to the game etc.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Saixos Yewark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uOoOjE1b,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-02-07T22:06:56.540+0000)

I actually really dislike this way of thinking about the problem. The way I'd go about it is that those attributes are attributes that the champions have, but they pick and choose from those attributes according to the ingame situation by adjusting their items. Whether they're tanky or deal burst damage or their level of utility ought to come from their items. I'd support fighters being pushed into a more jack of all trades position for this. The primary team role for fighters should be damage OR soak, depending on how they're doing in the game at the moment and what their team needs. Let them make an educated choice, adjust their build and playstyle, adds depth to the game etc.

That's what the Waffle-walrus option is for. Give Fighters the tools to go damage-focused or defense-focused. A lot of them already have this, but the few that are overbearing offer way more at the expense of... well... what is Jman giving up to be super mobile, bursty, attritiony, controlling, and soaky all at the same time?

I personally think that Fighters should typically have a nice mix of damage, defense, and mobility. Those that drop the mobility should be getting something amazing in return (Olaf and Udyr) because low Threat combined with low Mobility means you get kited to death and cry. Whether they decided to build more Soak or more Damage should be a case by case basis. They're a flexible class, that's cool. I honestly with Riot has stuck with the 'Abilities scale with Ability Power' model so players could pick between Burst or Attrition, but just a choice between Damage and Soak will have to do.

Partholonian2 votes

what is Jman giving up to be super mobile, bursty, attritiony, controlling, and soaky all at the same time?

I wouldn't know, I've never seen him with 30k gold and 12 item slots. He can build to be any of those things (well, not bursty compared to Zed, but enough to blow up someone who builds 0 defense), but not all of them.

One thing he definitely never has, though: poke. If Jarvan wants to hurt you, he's going to have to get in your face to do it. If your face is conveniently parked under a tower, or behind some teammates with good CC, that's not going to go well for him.

Some fighters have a nonzero amount of poke, but it usually isn't much good compared to what other classes get. Others, like Riven, Fiora, Jax, and Jarvan, are not doing one damn thing to you unless they get into melee range first. I think this makes good sense as a class weakness.

Jacknife2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Saixos Yewark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uOoOjE1b,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-02-07T22:06:56.540+0000)

I actually really dislike this way of thinking about the problem. The way I'd go about it is that those attributes are attributes that the champions have, but they pick and choose from those attributes according to the ingame situation by adjusting their items. Whether they're tanky or deal burst damage or their level of utility ought to come from their items. I'd support fighters being pushed into a more jack of all trades position for this. The primary team role for fighters should be damage OR soak, depending on how they're doing in the game at the moment and what their team needs. Let them make an educated choice, adjust their build and playstyle, adds depth to the game etc.

I see where your coming from, and I'd like to agree, but jack-of-all-trades style is a broken system on its own. A few years back I remember playing an MMO called Rift (its still fairly popular, so I imagine most anyone reading this post must've heard of it). I started playing it probably a year after its been out. One of its niches is that it had nine skill trees, three you could pick for one build of every generic class (warrior, rogue, mage, etc) so you could customize your guy to fit a lot of situations. While this would normally be good, at the time I was playing, one class in particular (rogues) had more diversity in their kit that the rest. They could literally do anything, and outshine everyone else by doing so. They could heal others and themselves, they could burst mobs and players extremely quickly, they could even tank better than most sub classes. There was literally no reason to pick anything else, because they could do so much.

Another example would be Guild Wars 2, where every class could do everything for themselves. It was nice at first, but became boring very quickly, as the reason to cooperate with your teammates vanished, making it just an rpg with people in it. As a last piece of evidence to prove my point, Lee I-fit-into-every-teamcomp-ever-made-so-well-it-must-be-a-sin. In a game where one class can do everything, there would be no point in picking another class that can do less.

Also as far as your itemization, that already exists in league. Thing is some top lane champs just scale better with certain items than others. You think a Riven could take a lot of damage if the team called for a full tank? probably. Could she do it better than a champion with one defensive steroid? probably not.

junglerboy161 votes

Simplest solution: Remove fighters from the game. Pick what they are best at and tune them to the class they ought to be. Vi is mostly a durable control assassin, Lee is mostly a mobile utility assassin, J4 is a DPS control tank, etc.

DubaZuba7 votes

So a complete rework of Aatrox Chogath Darius Diana DrMundo Elise Galio Gangplank Garen Gragas Hecarim Irelia Jax Jayce pants Kayle Mordekaiser Nasus Nocturne Nunu Olaf gasp for airPantheon Poppy Renekton Rengar Riven Rumble Shyvana Singed Sion passes out ... ect. ect. is in order because you don't like one class of champions?

Frikgeek2 votes

Hell no. Nobody has that kind of manpower, what they'll most likely do is rework the items that most fighters like to buy(trinity force, omen, IBG, etc.) to change them indirectly.

It's how they changed marksmen back in S3.

NinjaFifer2 votes

And then tanks are going to be in trash tier again. Bruisers/fighters almost always build one damage item then all tank, so, unless they make tank-only items, (like how they made ranged and melee only items in S3) any nerfs to the common bruiser items will almost guarantee a nerf to tanks.

Frikgeek2 votes

Or you could just give them %hp so that tanks get more from it than bruisers who build less defensive items. Or maybe buff their %AS reduction and give them similar stats but lower the HP and armour. This will make them better when built in combination, but worse when you just take sunfire/spirit visage on Renekton midgame. Or just nerf them but make them cheaper, since tanks don't usually get a ton of gold(even a toplane tank only farms for 15-20 minutes, when grouping your midlaner and adc get all the cs). This would mean that tanks could realistically get to a full build and bruisers(who get 1 damage item and much more gold) would fall off if they built the same items.

Besides, tanks are already trash tier and are only played as botlane supports.

NinjaFifer1 votes

%HP is a possible solution, but once again, the difference between a bruiser and tank is only 1 item. The difference that one of those items makes isn't going to be enough to really define tanks.

Synergy falls into the same category. If the difference is only in one item, then you'd have to have a full 6 item build to really feel different.

Making the items less gold efficient isn't a solution either. The argument is that bruisers will fall off late game if they take these items, but doesn't that mean that tanks will fall off even harder? Full build doesn't matter if you only picked up 2k items. Unless these tank items are very gold efficient, you'll still have paid for the same amount of stats as everyone else, but you won't have anywhere to go anymore.

So, you're saying that, since they are already trash tier, we might as well nerf their items since they can't get any lower?

Tanks really do need a specialized set of items only they can use efficiently. There's no way to completely restrict certain items from being bought by anyone else, like Runaan's and Hydra are, since there's no hard defining line between tanks and anyone else.

One way might be to increase tank base stats, then give % base stat gains. Tanks would gain more than anyone else, so they'd have their own little niche of items. Might be a little too binary, since then you'd be hard pressed to tank with anyone who isn't already defined by Riot as a tank.

Another solution might be to nerf some of the melee items, such that you can't get away with just one offensive item while still dealing tons of damage. Even making them buy two then tank, that would still give tanks a wider gap to distinguish themselves.

Frikgeek1 votes

Wouldn't nerfing melee offensive items make melee carries even worse? When's the last time you saw Yi or Fiora being played competitively? And again, when's the last time you saw a support Leona or Braum get full build? I'm not saying it never happens but It'd have to be a 60 minute game.

NinjaFifer1 votes

They're not getting played competitively because of the glaring holes in their kits. Fiora is getting reworked anyways (Soon™) but Yi needs to go glass cannon to get his resets off. The nerfs would come to the single item big hitters: Hydra and Triforce, pretty much exclusively. Those are really the only two items you can build to really spike your damage while you go full tank. All the others are either in a good place now as lone damage items (Ghostblade, BotRK, Cleaver) or require synergy (Crit items).

As for full build, I'm saying that, if you reduce the cost of tank items as well as their stats, you're just going to have champs who hit full build earlier (or jungle/support at the same time) but still have less stats for their full build than everyone else. Sure, saying you hit full build is nice, but if you're behind everyone else AND you can't keep going up, there's no point.

Frikgeek1 votes

Sure, but for most of the game, support or jungle tanks will be just as strong as they are now, and bruisers would be weaker. And really, when you hit superlate and supports could actually have more gold than they can spend their tankyness is kinda negated by heavy Arpen stacking on the enemy carries. Tanks would be just as shit as they are now and bruisers would be weaker, I really don't see a problem.

NinjaFifer1 votes

Once again, if you don't increase the efficiency of the items, it's still just an equation of Gold --> Stats. It doesn't matter if you put 6k into two items or three, you're getting the same stats out of all of it. The only thing that reducing the final gold cost (and the resulting stats of items) would do is make your full build weaker.

Now, if we did do this, it would lower the cap for bruisers, making the 30-40+ minutes more tolerable, but they would be the exact same before that time.

Frikgeek1 votes

That's the idea. Also, bruisers can get their full build at 30 minutes with the current item cots(if you're at least half-decent at csing that is). I was thinking of capping them around midgame because they're not really a problem early.

NinjaFifer1 votes

Meh, I get what you're shooting for, but I just don't think that it's a good way to go. It feels like it's too much of an artificial ceiling. There would be too much crying on the forums for higher tier items, just like what happened for Chalice.

I really do feel that the solution to the fighter problem is on some entirely different track.

Linna Excel1 votes

Some mages are sustained damage. Also what is a ranger? An adc? What about melee ADCs like Yi or Fiora?

Kingsgrave1 votes

Something tanks don't have that Bruisers honestly all do is presence

You always feel it when they are in the fight. Tanks are always kinda there but almost never chase or intervene your every attempt to even do something.

This is why something like Volibear and Trundle are not tanks just by playstyle and I think that having peel aka control should not be allowed on most if not all bruisers

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