Evelynn is barely picked and pretty much a "win more" champion that becomes useless as soon as falling behind, has no sustain, is squishy and her only strengh are her ganks? Lets gut her jungle speed and her only escape/Chase mechanis to hell.
Vayne is actually the most picked and baned ADC in the game, who gets an insane power spike from just one item and tends to solo carry games? Best we can do ist 3 AD.
Trebbi60 votesThey are always extremely careful when changing Vayne, Lee Sin and Riven.
Akesgeroth22 votesThey are always extremely reluctant to nerf their pet champions, but always eager to buff them.
FTFY
Creepy Bubble1 votesFTFY
this post is extremely underrated
Raoul23 votesTrue story
Wonhwa1 voteslol its because its tank meta. doesn't make sense to nerf a tank buster which is vayne
Big Lincoln17 votesbruisers are not tanks
Raoul37 votesVayne is an EVERYTHING Buster. Want to make her a tank buster? Fine. Double the % on her true damage, but make it % bonus HP. There, shes a tank buster now.
DeusVult1 votesDouble the % on her true damage, but make it % bonus HP
Slow your role their buddy, 16% of bonus health is a little freaking high
Raoul5 votesWhats the deal? Most tanks have around 2000 base HP. A normal tank build will normaly give you around 3500-4000 HP.
So, whats worse? 8% or 3750 HP or 16% or 1750 HP?
lakeyja9001 votesif you want to be a tank killer you should play 
adc
Ace Access 10 votesdoesn't make sense that a tank buster is more deadly as a squishy buster either
General Esdeath 7 voteslol its because its tank meta. doesn't make sense to nerf a tank buster which is vayne
Tank meta died, way to prove you don't even know the game
Wonhwa1 votesVayne got nerfed 3 AD go whine some more bud Riot is worried about the game balance. If you don't have enough skill to kill vayne or you hate vayne ban her or play another game lol
General Esdeath 4 votesVayne got nerfed 3 AD go whine some more bud Riot is worried about the game balance. If you don't have enough skill to kill vayne or you hate vayne ban her or play another game lol
Wow a whole 3 AD. That'll show us! And Riot gave up on balancing the game a while ago, now they're playing favorites.
Dextix LT9 votesFirst, tank meta is over. And she is more popular than in the tank meta.
Secondly, she kills everyone faster than tanks, strange how a tank buster busts EVERYONE
Zenanii1 votesBecause everyone hates playing against a powerful Evelynn because of how insanely hard it is to properly counter her stealth ganks unless you're in a organized team that puts up multiple pinks and deep wards her jungle. As for Vayne, Lee and Riven, I think riot wan't to keep them top viable because they have a high skill cap and their abilities give them great potential for huge play-making, which is entertaining to watch and bolsters the e-sports scene (which is also why I'm calling a upcoming Morde nerf that will put how below viable for the rest of the year, at the bare minimum).
Dominick Destine5 votesAs for Vayne, Lee and Riven, I think riot wan't to keep them top viable because they have a high skill cap and their abilities give them great potential for huge play-making, which is entertaining to watch and bolsters the e-sports scene (which is also why I'm calling a upcoming Morde nerf that will put how below viable for the rest of the year, at the bare minimum).
That's a popular argument but Lee Sin and Riven are brainlessly easy.... they have a low skill cap because they have multiple, very easy escape mechanisms and do not have mana limitations. Champions that allow you escape horrible mistakes so easily are by definition, not "high skill cap".
Zenanii4 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHvlzuWn,comment-id=000000030000,timestamp=2015-10-14T20:07:20.667+0000)
That's a popular argument but Lee Sin and Riven are brainlessly easy.... they have a low skill cap because they have multiple, very easy escape mechanisms and do not have mana limitations. Champions that allow you escape horrible mistakes so easily are by definition, not "high skill cap".
You're confusing skill cap and skill floor.
They are not hard to play. They are hard to master. Sure, anyone can ward jump over a wall to escape a gank with Lee Sin, or land a point blank Q on a slowed enemy, but few people can snipe out the enemy adc in a teamfight and properly execute the wardjump - dragons rage into friendly team (insec). And while it's easy enough for Riven players to spam all her abilities off cd and win lane, it takes skill to use her broken wings and valor to dodge skill-shots during teamfights and land stun/knockup on multiple targets.
Compare any of those three mentioned to the likes of Mordekaiser, Garen or Evelynn and there is just a massive differance in the ammount of potential playmaking the champion offers (heck, Garen have one single ability that requires you to target something and he even tells you who to attack).
Dominick Destine5 votesYou're confusing skill cap and skill floor.
Nonsense. The ability to evade punishment from bad plays means the character requires low skill. The lower the margin of error for a character, the higher the required skill. You are an apologist for a low skill, overloaded champ,....well champs.
If you play Evelynn, the slightest mess-up equals death. If you play Lee Sin or Riven, you can faceroll keyboard and still escape without dying because of the wide assortment of safety mechanisms built into their kits (Ex: I'm lee and I'm waaaay out of position, WUT DO I DO? press R and survive easily or ward-jump over a wall? SO SKILL VERY HARD).... and that's in addition to the standard flash.
Spicay1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHvlzuWn,comment-id=00000003000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-14T20:28:17.088+0000)
Nonsense. The ability to evade punishment from bad plays means the character requires low skill. The lower the margin of error for a character, the higher the required skill. You are an apologist for a low skill, overloaded champ,....well champs.
If you play Evelynn, the slightest mess-up equals death. If you play Lee Sin or Riven, you can faceroll keyboard and still escape without dying because of the wide assortment of safety mechanisms built into their kits (Ex: I'm lee and I'm waaaay out of position, WUT DO I DO? press R and survive easily or ward-jump over a wall? SO SKILL VERY HARD).... and that's in addition to the standard flash.
Says an Evelynn main.
Must be real difficult to E+AA a squishy and kill them post Runeglaive.
Dominick Destine5 votesSays an Evelynn main.
The ad hominem, for when kids want to chime in too.
That said; it is because I am an Evelynn main at Diamond level that I can confidently state that the nerf was unnecessary... there are far stronger (Read: Actual overpowered characters) that are picked far more often (Ex: Lee Sin, Riven, Vayne, Thresh, Ekko, Darius, etc.). Evelynn did not need further nerfs.
Must be real difficult to E+AA a squishy and kill them post Runeglaive.
Proper positioning and timing are Evelynn's true "Skillshots", being in the wrong place or attacking at the wrong time is death. Being highly opportunistic like no other champion is the correct way to play Evelynn.
Compared to Lee Sin that can be anywhere and survive with "MUH MANALESS, MUH MULTIPLE FLASHES, MUH AOE STUN"... low skill cap high reward champ. Evelynn did not deserve nerfs.
Spicay1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHvlzuWn,comment-id=0000000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-14T21:30:07.338+0000)
The ad hominem, for when kids want to chime in too.
That said; it is because I am an Evelynn main at Diamond level that I can confidently state that the nerf was unnecessary... there are far stronger (Read: Actual overpowered characters) that are picked far more often (Ex: Lee Sin, Riven, Vayne, Thresh, Ekko, Darius, etc.). Evelynn did not need further nerfs.
Proper positioning and timing are Evelynn's true "Skillshots", being in the wrong place or attacking at the wrong time is death. Being highly opportunistic like no other champion is the correct way to play Evelynn.
Compared to Lee Sin that can be anywhere and survive with "MUH MANALESS, MUH MULTIPLE FLASHES, MUH AOE STUN"... low skill cap high reward champ. Evelynn did not deserve nerfs.
I understand that you dislike Lee Sin, but please stop trying to act like playing Evelynn is hard.
Evelynn also has a higher win rate than Elise, Rengar, Lee and Riven, while also having a higher ban rate than the last two.
3TWarrior1 votesa higher win rate in solo queue, where any competent player can trash the lower levels with a skill-based champ. Evelynn, however, can't take someone out if she unloads her full kit into them unless they're ridiculously out of position
I will paste my other comment here
evelynn can't do anything because riot nerfs her into the ground and refuses to remake her. Her E isn't even relevant to her standard build and only benefits AD eve. Her ultimate works on %current hp and gives her a short duration shield. her Q could fire 10x early game and not take out an enemy, meanwhile most junglers can kill you by themselves and even easier if aided. In addition, Evelynn has a very low gold income because if she snowballs herself, she dooms her team...
A full build evelynn is completely irrelevant to even a half build late game team...she couldn't even kill an out of position veigar underneath of her team's tower because he benefits from her primary stat...
a competent lee sin, rengar, master yi, sejuani, chogath(he can jungle but why, idk), akali, ekko, warwick, literally everyone else in the jungle could kill that veigar...
EddardStark841 votesNot that I disagree with the overall tone of other champions being in a much bigger need of nerfs..playing against Eve is entirely un-fun for anyone but the player playing her and her team. No other champ completely warps the way the game is played around her, except for maybe rengar and shaco (oh surprise stealth champions).
Celeste Benal1 votesI actually don't have a problem with them or stealth. There are a myriad of ways to play that reduce the risk any stealth champ represents. But since most of those methods require individual effort and change on the part of the players, we rarely see then employed.
Fro example, pink wards. I've placed pink wards in the top lane bush and had it last the entire game. Nothing screws over Shaco when he comes through your lane as much as being seen by that pink. Free kill baby.
EddardStark841 votesPink wards aren't a hard counter to stealth, they are a soft counter. All eve, shaco, rengar has to do is clear the ward and then gank. Unless you plan on instantly backing the second your pink is cleared, the advantage swings mightily into a stealth champions favor the instant your pink is cleared and the way you play is warped completely. Stealth has never been properly balanced and it's the reason why stealth champs are kept weak.
Zenanii3 votesI stand by my statement. "Skill floor" basically means how absolutely clueless you can be with a champ and still perform decently. It is possible that the skill floor for Riven and Lee Sin is lower than that of Evelynn since they have such strong escapes, I'm not going to go into a discussion about this since I don't main any of these champs. However, you can't possibly argue that the skill ceiling of Evelynn could possible compare to that of Lee Sin, Riven or Vayne. What can a skilled Lee Sin do? Insec, use resonating strike for both initiation and disengage, hit multiple targets with dragon's rage, all while weaving in auto attacks in between to keep his energy up. What can a skilled Evelynn do? Land a 5 man ult, then point and click ravage, then spam hate spike (possibly positioning in such a way that the spike hits multiple enemies).
And you make it sound as if you can play Riven and Lee to their full potential without ever having map awareness. You say that you need to play very conservatively as Evelynn to not get blown up. What you do not consider is that you need to play very aggressively as Lee or Riven to achieve their full potential. They can both escape some really tricky situations, but they constantly have to put themselves in those risky situations to fulfill their role.
Either way we can have this discussion all night, but you really only have to search on youtube for "League of legends top plays" to find the answer. You know how many Riven, Vayne and Lee Sin plays comes up? You know how many Evelynn plays comes up?
3TWarrior2 votesevelynn can't do anything because riot nerfs her into the ground and refuses to remake her. Her E isn't even relevant to her standard build and only benefits AD eve. Her ultimate works on %current hp and gives her a short duration shield. her Q could fire 10x early game and not take out an enemy, meanwhile most junglers can kill you by themselves and even easier if aided. In addition, Evelynn has a very low gold income because if she snowballs herself, she dooms her team...
A full build evelynn is completely irrelevant to even a half build late game team...she couldn't even kill an out of position veigar underneath of her team's tower because he benefits from her primary stat...
a competent lee sin, rengar, master yi, sejuani, chogath(he can jungle but why, idk), akali, ekko, warwick, literally everyone else in the jungle could kill that veigar...
Zenanii1 votesDid you even read my comment? I never said Evelynn was or wasn't underpowered (that's a discussion I have no interest in), I simply stated that I think Riot are deliberately pushing the "playmaking" champions into viability because their kit is more entertaining to watch and play against (can be argued) while trying to suppress the more bland champions with straightforward/simple kits because they are boring to watch and frustrating to go up against if they're overtuned. Our discussion was about if Evelynns skill cap was higher then the likes of Lee, Riven and Vayne, so why are you trying to convince me she needs a buff?
3TWarrior1 votesi'm not trying to convince you that she needs a buff? where did that come from? My point is that there is a very high skill ceiling on evelynn because she can do less than any other jungler and has no synergy with the team unless played extremely well to snowball lanes as a jungler is supposed to do, but, most opponents just run away whenever they see evelynn, making her unable to achieve her desired effect because of her low stats...
Zenanii1 votesmost opponents just run away whenever they see evelynn
Well, this should be the last of Evelynns problems >_> (unlike most other junglers)
All junglers need map awareness, regardless of how much mobility they have, and they all need to coordinate with their laners to pull off succesfull ganks. Evelynn isn't special in that regard.
Let me put it this way: Currently LoL worlds championship is being played. Do you think you could make it up there without map awareness, team communication and game sense simply by playing Lee Sin? I'm going to answer that right away, the answer is a resounding no. So at the highest level of play, Lee players needs the exact same things as Eve players but they also need to learn to land their Q, aim their ult and dodge/escape with their W. Hence my argument that the skill cap on Lee is higher then that of Evelynn.
TheCeeJay1 votesWhile Riven, Lee Sin and Vayne do have a skill cap I wouldn't say it's very high. It's true you can definitely tell a good Riven, Lee Sin or Vayne apart from a subpar one, but even the subpar ones do decent.
ARequestOfDeath1 votesit is because she is popular
MrWasjig13 votes"Because fuck stealth that's why" Has pretty much been Riot's stance on this matter. They dress up their explanations with some well worded guff but the underlying cause is simply "Fuck stealth"
I wouldn't claw for the eyeballs just yet though. I concede that when I read "3 AD" I thought: "Well fuck me sideways! Do they know it's Christmas time?" But they've said many times they'll wait for the Marksman update in preseason before they do something to Vayne. If nothing is done during that or in the next few patches after, THAT'S when we can officially call them out and say "Bullshit!"
Still that nerf to Eve's Dark Frenzy was completely unneeded, she's not exactly Vayne levels of pick rate at the moment and let's be honest, never was. On top of that when it was first brought to attention it received unbridled negative response, which should have been a clue at least.
Remlap12231 votesWe Are the World is better scrub.
But in all seriousness you're right on the ball. Riot hates stealth. Although to be fair they were complete idiots because they coupled stealth with increased resistances, which meant that it didn't matter if you dropped a pink ward or were just that good at telegraphing, you were still punished for attempting to secure the kill because Kha'Zix and Akali would just shrug it off like it was yesterday's news.
Don't get me started on the abomination that is Eve's permastealth. That passive is literally all the reasons why Eve is just getting butt pounded with nonstop nerfs.
MrWasjig4 votesI don't know where you get your sources but no champion gains damage reduction in stealth. Kha'Zix used to but it was removed because a few outliers abused how strong it was (there was a pro build that was REALLY strong with it).
But other than that stealth simply makes the user invisible.
Remlap12231 votesYes, but in Akali and Kha'Zix's case (and I think Rengar prework if I'm not mistaken) had damage reduction on stealth.
I don't know why I was downvoted, they both had it for a long time. Akali got her DR increase traded for MS, and Kha just got gutted.
Creepy Bubble1 votesYes, but in Akali and Kha'Zix's case (and I think Rengar prework if I'm not mistaken) had damage reduction on stealth.
I don't know why I was downvoted, they both had it for a long time. Akali got her DR increase traded for MS, and Kha just got gutted.
Kha was the only one who had damage reduction. Akali gained a(n extremely) small amount of armor and MR while in her stealth cloud and Rengar had nothing of the sort. People bitched out rengar because his stealth was instant, and gave him 5 stacks of ferocity.
Zair Umbras2 votesAn extremely small? She gained 100 Armor and Magic resist.
MrWasjig1 votesBut they haven't had the damage reduction for a long time now. So using that as an argument against stealth is invalid because it's outdated info.
Samflash31 votesDoesn't Vayne have stealth?
RetroRage961 votesTeemo got stealth buffs.
JimmyNutrin691 votes"Because fuck stealth that's why" Has pretty much been Riot's stance on this matter. They dress up their explanations with some well worded guff but the underlying cause is simply "Fuck stealth"
I wouldn't claw for the eyeballs just yet though. I concede that when I read "3 AD" I thought: "Well fuck me sideways! Do they know it's Christmas time?" But they've said many times they'll wait for the Marksman update in preseason before they do something to Vayne. If nothing is done during that or in the next few patches after, THAT'S when we can officially call them out and say "Bullshit!"
Still that nerf to Eve's Dark Frenzy was completely unneeded, she's not exactly Vayne levels of pick rate at the moment and let's be honest, never was. On top of that when it was first brought to attention it received unbridled negative response, which should have been a clue at least.
dude its for "clarity" cant have people going invisible because its unfun and toxic to people who cant buy pinks
Red Ryu5 votesMarksman. Update.
Wait. Til. After. Worlds.
brad3 votesu act like 40 mana on a champion who's 2nd passive is literally " get %mana for being invisible" is going to put her into garbage tier
Boulderox2 votesto be fair evelynn is a hybrid champ, and shines in every metat with a "BROKEN" item, her ganks cannot be prevented without a pink ward, which hurts a lot when trying to fight against one. And she itemizes with any meta, tank she can build really tanky with cinderhulk, build assassin, or ad/ap carry. She is too versitile. But 3 AD is PITIFUL when her w is the problem. riot does this all the time, dodges the problem because it is "there identity"
MyTeamIsAwsome1 votesWhat is annoying about vayne: her stealth. I played shen not a long time ago and we were crushing the game... then a vayne solo carry and 1 v 3 us when we had alot of cc. The frustrating thing about vayne is just her ability to carry a game 1 v 5. If someone could give me a tip except :CC her i would greatly appreciate it because i am salty when i see this champion.
CasterGilgamesh2 votesMyTeamIsAwsome1 votesNo he recognized me gotta rune nos... Côme my friend
