Atmas and why the ADC rework is basically Atmogs

Potato Doc··6 votes·730 views

So, for those who dont know, atmas was an item that was removed in patch 4.21, the reasoning was because the item synergized too well with building tanky since it gave you armor, crit, and had a passive that gave AD for building HP. It made bruisers really strong because the typical choice with bruisers of what they were going to build next [tanky, or damage] was negated by this item, by building tanky you got more AD. There was very little if not any punishment for buying this item, unless you were facing a full AP team...

So why is it that this item was removed because of its synergy, yet we get ADC who not only have it a billion times easier to get CDR, but also get increased crit chance on top of a mound of buffs? Was the lesson not learned from before?

TO STATE IT EXPLICITLY: I'M NOT SAYING THE INCREASE IN DIVERSITY WAS BAD. ADC absolutely needed a variety of methods to build instead of the typical 2 builds of either IE, BT, SS or Botrk. This update definitely brought a needed diversity to that role.

Choices surrounding other classes were rather appropriate, the gold increase/decreases to many other classes were well placed, but its success gets lost under the amazing amount of buffs the ADC have received, and makes them look bad.

My problem and what many people are trying to put out there is the fact that there is little trade off with getting ADC items now. You can get 100% crit chance and 40%CDR in just 4 items that give you a really good share of AD and AS, and then they can build into the LDR >.>, and if your ADC doesnt need CDR then the choice for lifesteal is really good, and mix that in with the amount of damage mitigation you can get, PD might as well be a changed version of Atmas... (dont forget supports can also supplement crit chance for ADC too)

Basically what I am trying to say is, with mages you had the trade off of "Do i build mana regen + some AP, or do I build Fatman nuke", with bruisers we have "Can i build more AD? or do I need to be tankier? If I am building tanky do I need to be going more MR or Armor or is it better to just get more HP?", the other roles need to make these decisions, but when we have ADC items like LDR that basically ruin that choice for bruisers*, or just straight up outclass mages in choices without sacrifices (unless you count choosing between more crit or lifeteal as a real hard choice). Of course you are going to find people complaining, because it is just poor balancing.

I get its the preseason and that it is a time of experimenting. There is, however, a difference between experimenting and throwing a brick of pure sodium in a lake.

My suggestion is to lower all crit chance on all items. You should have to sacrifice your build if you want 60+% crit or if you want 25%+ life steal. This however is my own opinion and should not effect my above statement.

TL:DR change was good, the lack of buyers remorse for ADC was bad. Change it!

11 Comments

Sightless663 votes

You should have to sacrifice your build if you want 60+% crit or if you want 25%+ life steal.

My problem with this is that historically, anytime AD carries have had to choose between "dps" and "not-dps", dps always ends up being the superior choice unless "not-dps" is so ungodly overtuned that it's breaking the entire game. DPS is the entire reason you exist, so it's always the best choice when you have to decide what to build. It immediately kills all potential item diversity because you're asking the dps champion to decide to build something that won't let them adequately do their job. If I have to choose between building AD/AS/Crit and building literally anything else, then I'm going to build AD/AS/Crit every time.

the lack of buyers remorse for ADC was bad.

There is still buyer's remorse. Actually, I said that wrong. A better thing to say is "there is buyer's remorse now" I might not get the extra waveclear from shiv, or the extra dueling power from triforce or PD, or I might not be able to pick up the essence reaver because I really need the physical vamp. I can miss each of those effects. There was never buyer's remorse in the past because there was always a right option. "Is this item the best DPS option or it a defensive option once you've bought the avalivable DPS options? No? Don't buy it then". That was it. No remorse because no choice. The same thing would happen right now if you let me optimize my build for DPS. I'd immediately stop making choices and I'd never have any buyer's remorse again.

nless you count choosing between more crit or lifeteal as a real hard choice

It's more of a choice than choosing between "dps or not dps" would be. If you made me give up dps to get CDR, CDR would go out the window. If you made me give up all defensive options (lifesteal items are included in this) to get CDR, CDR would go out the window. No choices there.

Regarding the atmog's comparison: The atmog's champion could get every effect he needed, and all the damage he needed, by building pure tank, and he has everything he needs as soon as he builds Atma's and a defensive item. That was the issue. The ADC can choose between a few effects, but there are still many different effects I may need and I'll feel their loss if I have to go without them, and I need to buy many things to get these effects. The differences are very important.

Potato Doc1 votes

The problem with the new ad items is the fact that they all have so much stacked into them, again bruisers have to choose between tank or damage, meanwhile mages have to choose between mana, ap, and cdr, AD are able to get package deals covering not only crit but lifesteal , AS, MS, armor pen, and damage all with a very good build, with mages you see the ones who max out ap struggle a bit with mana, bruisers have to give up damage to live longer and the item only covers vs 1 form of damage not both, and true damage is only countered through HP. Buyers remorse is typically applied to hard decisions that can make or break, with AD its more about what they want to be doing, you dont really see any negatives to an AD's build now where as you can see the consequences and holes in others.

Sir Yamazuki2 votes

Atmas was very rarely built for a very long time. You could go hundreds of games, or in my case, thousands, and not see it bought once.

Sightless661 votes

That's because it was nerfed from being an item that strangled all other builds out of existence.

Sir Yamazuki1 votes

{quoted}

That's because it was nerfed from being an item that strangled all other builds out of existence.

Still doesn't change the fact that it wasn't removed for the reason listed. A similar item was even added not long ago.

Sasogwa1 votes

{quoted}

So, for those who dont know, atmas was an item that was removed in patch 4.21, the reasoning was because the item synergized too well with building tanky since it gave you armor, crit, and had a passive that gave AD for building HP. It made bruisers really strong because the typical choice with bruisers of what they were going to build next [tanky, or damage] was negated by this item, by building tanky you got more AD. There was very little if not any punishment for buying this item, unless you were facing a full AP team...

Stopped reading there. This is hella shit. Atma's, at the moment where it was removed, was garbage. Nobody took that item anymore. Atma's+ Warmogs was a thing in like, season 1-2. After Atma's nerf, it wasn't good anymore because the numbers were lower.

So.. STOP SAYING ATMA WAS REMOVED BECAUSE IT WAS TOO STRONG IT IS FUCKING FALSE.

Potato Doc2 votes

So excuse my ignorance. I was here from the near the beginning of league up until early season 2, left for 2 years and came back, but the reason they nerfed it into the ground still stands, it was just too good. But sadly you cant get out of your own ego to actually read something without insulting it.

Sasogwa1 votes

{quoted}

So excuse my ignorance. I was here from the near the beginning of league up until early season 2, left for 2 years and came back, but the reason they nerfed it into the ground still stands, it was just too good. But sadly you cant get out of your own ego to actually read something without insulting it.

The thing is I'm incredibly annoyed by people who jump at conclusions when they don't have all the elements in mind. Especially since I've been having an argument with someone that kept assuring Atma was completely overpowered and was removed because it was stupidly OP (bitch pls, with the new items right now, and the damage powercreep over the years, releasing old atma right now would be a meh item). I will pass over the fact you need to put yourself superior to me by being condescendent towards my annoyed attitude. So... let's see. You say Atmogs didn't have "buyer's remorse". To a certain extent, yeah. The thing is, for periods of time, X item, or even X champion is simply better than the others. Atmogs was broken because it was the best choice at that time. Same thing for league of item 3071 , league of item 3083 , league of item 3153 . Or FOTM champions.

Right now, the ADC itemization, seems a bit weird to compare that to atmogs; because you look at a whole set of items VS a hyperefficient (at that time) combination of 2 items.

Also, I don't get why people get crazy about the fact that ADC's can get 2 AS/crit items. They already could last season The problems, really, are : The synergy between item 3094 and item 3087 . The passives cumulate, so you can go for an insane burst build, while still having really relevant DPS. It also has to do with the increased crit on Statikk and the high crit as well on Rapidfire. 30% imo is a mistake, making the items a bit too good. 25% would be fine and slightly discourage players to stack crit. item 3508 , I've seen a lot of it, and that's pretty much the thing that differentiates ADC itemization of this season from last season. 40% cdr. I'm extremely disappointed by the fact they wanted to make this absolutely a crit item, for marksmen. It could as well be an AD caster item if they gave some more appropriate stats such as flat arpen, cdr, more AD. But let's pass on. This item is a bit bullshit. However, it's not good on every adc. Some benefit of it much more than others. Good example being Lucian .

item 3035 is a very good design item imo. It and its upgrades are slightly weaker on the arpen than previous LW except on insane cases of over 600 armor approximately, but mostly, it's an item where you clearly have buyer's remorse. This item gives pretty much NOTHING against squishy targets. Old last whisper was still a considerable damage increase against squishy targets just because of natural base armor growth. item 3036 is fine, good design, % damage increase is much more healthy than % of enemy's health, also it's capped. Good design too. The only problem one might have is that it caps very fast, like, you have one HP item, you're already at the max %damage increase against you. item 3033 ... Terrible. But everyone knows it. 5 seconds grievous wounds for one autoattack? Nah... It needs to have more of a window of opportunity, counterplay, because right now it guarantees grievous wounds. Riot even had to rebalance grievous wounds because of that item, 40% instead of 50 decrease of heals, and doesnt work if the heal comes from other sources... indirectly putting soraka in a huge position of power.

I think there is still a buyer's remorse when creating an ADC build. Do I want defensive items? item 3026 was buffed a lot during the preseason, but it somehow got unnoticed. Do I want item 3139 or item 3072 or item 3812 (I'm actually surprised at Death's Dance winrate, considering it has pretty meh lifesteal (12%), stats (65 AD,10% cdr, very underwhelming for an ADC with crit builds), and the damage reduction is quite low, and you still take the damage overtime). For the crit choices, I see very little item 3046 . On Vayne mostly, if you want to put a splitpush pressure. Overall, I think there's more buyer's remorse than last season. The only things you would wonder about last season were item 3087 VSitem 3046 and item 3153 VSitem 3072 But yes, there's still too little of it.

Because some items are too versatile. item 3508 AD,crit,cdr,mana gain is a good example. item 3139 now giving lifesteal too.

Overall, the lever of raw power has not increased imo. The level of versatility has however. Which is probably what you meant with buyer's remorse. Last season, you could very well go item 3031 item 3046 item 3046 item 3035 item 3072 and have absolutely insane DPS and lifesteal, but pretty much only that. Raw power has been slightly reduced, with the AD reduced on IE, nerfs on BT/botrk,etc. Now you can go for a route with included CDR/mana regain from essence reaver, the mercurial MR and active, and the burst of statikk+rapidfire with lower DPS, but still good enough so that you don't lose much for an insane versatility.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Agreed, if anything, adc builds are more stale than before while being more powerful than before. It's frustrating & boring seeing the exact same thing on 3 different enemy champions.

RogueWill1 votes

Just finish the games before they can get those 4 items. Riot did indeed buff adc out of waazoo but to "balance" they made possible to finish the game before they can hit those ridiculous stats. Grab your early junglers, your choking supports and your Bully gods tops and push before they can get the items needed to delete you.

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