So Meddler said Koggy is the sustained damage centerpiece ADC

Rebonack·Dec 18, 2015·63 votes·6,359 views

As opposed to Trist, who is the tower-eating option or Miss Fortune who is the AoE Wombo option.

Problem is, Koggy is only able to do his sustained damage for six seconds at a time on a 7 second cooldown. During this time, he's effectively rooted (unless he wants to lose a large chunk of his damage) and utterly unable to do anything about his target disengaging from him. When his W is on cooldown, his options are to use his mana-devouring Ult to snipe at low HP targets, move into basic attack range to proc his Innate, or cower behind his team whilst being utterly useless.

Of all the various ADCs, Koggy's fallback play pattern is probably the weakest.

So if Kog is supposed to be the immobile sustained damage threat in the ADC lineup, why not actually make him one?

Lowest impact change, Koggy's W could have its duration increased by 6 seconds every time he scores a takedown. This would have no real buff to his early game, but it would improve his ability to gnaw through team-fight targets much more reliably.

His W could be turned into a toggle that consumes ~5 mana per second. That would allow him to keep up the pressure, barring burning through his mana pool with his Ult and his obscenely expensive E (seriously, that thing costs more mana than many Ults).

Or if Riot wanted to get really creative, they could move his W to his Innate (yes, the whole thing. Graves set the precedent here) and give him a totally new W.

Either way, Koggy would be able to keep up the sustained damage and actually do the things Riot apparently wants him to do.

78 Comments

FantasySniperDec 19, 20156 votes

Toggle is the best idea. Before, it would be a bad idea because there would be no downsides to having it on, but now that he's rooted while accessing his damage, it's a fair trade.

Critmaster GarenDec 18, 20155 votes

this is stupid. you cant separate those two.

all adc are tower eating champions. especially kog maw with his range and attack speed focus as opposed to crit focus. you want to tell me its much harder for him to kill towers in siege situations with his w up? meddler pelase. think this through.

RebonackDec 18, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txlGL51M,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-18T16:57:11.103+0000)

this is stupid. you cant separate those two.

all adc are tower eating champions. especially kog maw with his range and attack speed focus as opposed to crit focus.

Well take that up with Meddler, he said it, not me.

Critmaster GarenDec 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well take that up with Meddler, he said it, not me.

i mean did he actually say that? this seems obviously short sighted.

attack speed and range are the most valuable stats when it comes to killing turrets. as crit doesnt apply to them. so if you would go for a turret killing build, youd go for an ad/attack speed combination.

his new w makes kog maw probably one of the best champions in the game when it comes to sieging and killing turrets due to the extra distance he gets. the only way to prevent that would be to have his extra range not apply to them.

RebonackDec 18, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txlGL51M,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-18T17:03:29.760+0000)

i mean did he actually say that? this seems obviously short sighted.

attack speed and range are the most valuable stats when it comes to killing turrets. as crit doesnt apply to them. so if you would go for a turret killing build, youd go for an ad/attack speed combination.

his new w makes kog maw probably one of the best champions in the game when it comes to sieging and killing turrets due to the extra distance he gets. the only way to prevent that would be to have his extra range not apply to them.

Here you go:

We do think Kog's a champ you should feel rewarded for building a protective team around, given his lack of escape/hard CC and dependence on sustained auto attacking. That's a space that a few different champions should be able to exist in though, provided they're doing it in different ways (e.g. MF as the wombo character you want to pair with AOE lockdown for the duration of her ult, Kog as the one you want to protect for extended periods of time with AA enhancing buffs where possible, Trist as the one to protect if you want to push towers quick mid game etc).

Ap Marksmen Kog is actually the fastest tower pusher in the game since the AP ratio bonus damage to towers isn't reduced by his W and Riot recently made it so Nashor's OnHit works on towers. Between that and a Blue Elixir Koggy absolutely demolishes them.

You know, assuming a stiff breeze doesn't kill him first.

ZalinthelDec 18, 20153 votes

Ap Marksmen Kog is actually the fastest tower pusher in the game since the AP ratio bonus damage to towers isn't reduced by his W and Riot recently made it so Nashor's OnHit works on towers.

Did this really happen?? Because if so that's interesting.

delonixDec 19, 20152 votes

Time for math. All this math assumes level 9 champions, around 3200g, freely attacking turrets for 6 seconds, no runes or masteries, and it doesn't take into account armor or mr of towers, which should decrease damage evenly. Also it assumes that partial autoattacks do damage.

Level 9 AP Kog'maw with just Nashor's: 50% AS, 80AP, 27(15+12) magic damage on-hit, +35% bonus attack speed from maxed Q, double attack speed from rank 1 W, 10.1% attack speed at level 9, 0.665 base attack speed, 74 base attack damage

Total Attack Speed: 0.665 + (0.665 x 95%) = 1.30 x 2 = 2.6 attacks per second
Damage per Attack: 74 x 0.55 = 40.7 physical damage + 27 magic damage + 50% ap = 107.7
Total Damage over 6 seconds: 107.7 x (2.6 x 6) = 1680.12 damage

Level 9 AD Tristana with just Ghostblade: 40% AS, 65 AD, 110% AS from maxed Q, 203 Physical damage from rank 1 E, 10.1% attack speed at level 9, 0.656 base attack speed, 73 base attack damage

Total Attack Speed: 0.656 + (0.656 x 160%) = 1.7 attacks per second
Damage per Attack: 73 + 65 = 138 damage
Total Damage over 6 seconds: 138 x (1.7 x 6) + 203 = 1610.6 damage

This makes it look like AP Kog'maw is slightly better at taking towers than Tristana, given these conditions. Obviously this changes with different items, at different levels, over different periods of time, and with runes and masteries. Fun fact, Kog'maw with W active will do less damage to towers than without W active during the first 7 minutes of the game.

Unfortunately, I just tested Nashor's Tooth, and the passive does not work on towers. I also couldn't find any evidence that Riot actually made that change. Without Nashor's, the final numbers are:

AP Kog'maw: 1258.92 damage AD Tristana: 1610.6 damage

idontplaythemetaDec 18, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txlGL51M,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-18T16:57:11.103+0000)

this is stupid. you cant separate those two.

all adc are tower eating champions. especially kog maw with his range and attack speed focus as opposed to crit focus. you want to tell me its much harder for him to kill towers with his w up?

My thought process is yay double attack speed! But.... 55% damage... 5% damage increase if they stand there and take it... If they run well you lose about 4 basics per time you reposition to be in range, ehem 200% damage decrease!, but yeah I thing the problem is his fighting non-ai controlled units.

D rokDec 18, 201519 votes

It still applies on-hits, including the on-hit from his kit. So while bork and stuff has been nerfed, they still apply their full on-hit damage with every attack. It's a massive damage increase.

Meddler, at one point, said he was going to be hard to balance because they don't want to have to create an on-hit item specifically for him, but if it's a reasonable item on others, it's probably going to be hard to balance for him. I think he discussed this on the recent patch rundown. Could be wrong.

idontplaythemetaDec 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=D rok,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txlGL51M,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-18T18:48:55.981+0000)

It still applies on-hits, including the on-hit from his kit. So while bork and stuff has been nerfed, they still apply their full on-hit damage with every attack. It's a massive damage increase.

Meddler, at one point, said he was going to be hard to balance because they don't want to have to create an on-hit item specifically for him, but if it's a reasonable item on others, it's probably going to be hard to balance for him. I think he discussed this on the recent patch rundown. Could be wrong.

I just think the old late game 2 shooting koggers was better.his kit now feels clunky and people are recommending guinsoos to make him better.

XenomancersDec 18, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I just think the old late game 2 shooting koggers was better.his kit now feels clunky and people are recommending guinsoos to make him better.

That item was basically built for kog. Not a rush item but as a 3-4th item it is incredible.

idontplaythemetaDec 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

That item was basically built for kog. Not a rush item but as a 3-4th item it is incredible.

It's just so silly now XD. I just don't like his clunkyness that he's got going on right now. I'm in hopes that rito will smooth him out a bit eventually even though I don't play him myself. Plus I find it difficult to support him as he is now. He seems to work well with thresh, Braum, and lower elos blitz will work as well. I don't play the meta supports.... Sion is my main, sejuani is my secondary main, gnar is my best team fighting one if we have a form of comms other than ally chat, and malzahar is more of a counter pick that I play. I have others but don't use them as often. So how I do play the protect the adc role when I'm sion or sej, whenever I have a Koggers he is just never able to engage hard enough even if I land a full cc combo in order to get a kill. They will most of the time get away with little hp cause his damage output is so low, especially in comparison to other adc's. I don't think he needs much just a small buff. Ex. Range buff on w, move speed increase, better w scaling or base damage, mana cost reduction, ect. Almost anything minor they do with him may give him that slight edge I think he needs. It's just my opinion I guess but in comparison to other sustain adc's excluding sivir they are just better than him it seems.

PrimaquariusDec 18, 20152 votes

They already have personal items, such as Viktor's Core, so I doubt thinking up something for KogMaw will be that hard

KaisadiIIaDec 19, 20151 votes

I think he refers to a regular item (like BotRK) that synergyzes well for Kog'Maw, but it's not useless on the rest of the champions.

JefftiffyDec 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=D rok,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txlGL51M,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-18T18:48:55.981+0000)

It still applies on-hits, including the on-hit from his kit. So while bork and stuff has been nerfed, they still apply their full on-hit damage with every attack. It's a massive damage increase.

Meddler, at one point, said he was going to be hard to balance because they don't want to have to create an on-hit item specifically for him, but if it's a reasonable item on others, it's probably going to be hard to balance for him. I think he discussed this on the recent patch rundown. Could be wrong.

It really isn't a massive damage increase. Why? Because first off he will never get there. Not when MissFortune , Vayne , Draven , Jinx all run rampant. Because they have better early games and late games. Kog already lacked an early game, slightly buffing his base value while completely removing its scaling (which was somewhere up to 8% if stacking all AD and no AS or crit). On average a Kog would get about 6% max hp dmg around end game as magic damage as AD not building magic pen. Meaning if you have 100+ MR he is going to be doing maybe 3% + 6% current from BotRK. Now he gets a a max of 1% + 4-6% late game without building magic pen. That is a huge nerf to DPS and considering it's kind of bad to stack AS and crit and low damage. This leads to you killing everyone equal speeds instead of killing the carries then whittling down the tanks. On top of this he still has almost 0 self peel.

If you are going to buff Kog now, don't hit his W again. It defeats the purpose. His weakest aspect is his Q. It is very slow and really hard to hit if anything gets in the way. Q should now cost 60 -> 50 mana, fly 15% faster, magic scaling dropped to 50 -> 35% AP. Now has a trait to continue past the first target hit and do no damage but still apply the armor and MR reductions at half value.

Kog'maw's Void Ooze (E) now pushes enemy champions within 200 units (only in the E area) of him 300 units backwards when used. It gives him a little bit of breathing room and lets him actually use it defensively.

RebonackDec 20, 20152 votes

{quoted} Kog'maw's Void Ooze (E) now pushes enemy champions within 200 units (only in the E area) of him 300 units backwards when used. It gives him a little bit of breathing room and lets him actually use it defensively.

No no no.

Absolutely not.

If Kog ever gets his E remade, it should be replaced with something that lacks any form of CC, including a slow.

Kog shouldn't get a peel for himself. It's as core to his identity as withering single target damage.

ofartDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It really isn't a massive damage increase. Why? Because first off he will never get there. Not when , , , all run rampant. Because they have better early games and late games. Kog already lacked an early game, slightly buffing his base value while completely removing its scaling (which was somewhere up to 8% if stacking all AD and no AS or crit). On average a Kog would get about 6% max hp dmg around end game as magic damage as AD not building magic pen. Meaning if you have 100+ MR he is going to be doing maybe 3% + 6% current from BotRK. Now he gets a a max of 1% + 4-6% late game without building magic pen. That is a huge nerf to DPS and considering it's kind of bad to stack AS and crit and low damage. This leads to you killing everyone equal speeds instead of killing the carries then whittling down the tanks. On top of this he still has almost 0 self peel.

If you are going to buff Kog now, don't hit his W again. It defeats the purpose. His weakest aspect is his Q. It is very slow and really hard to hit if anything gets in the way. Q should now cost 60 -> 50 mana, fly 15% faster, magic scaling dropped to 50 -> 35% AP. Now has a trait to continue past the first target hit and do no damage but still apply the armor and MR reductions at half value.

Kog'maw's Void Ooze (E) now pushes enemy champions within 200 units (only in the E area) of him 300 units backwards when used. It gives him a little bit of breathing room and lets him actually use it defensively.

Really hate this idea. AP Kog has suffered a lot already and you want to make his Q scaling even worse? He already has almost no poke, almost no CC and a terribly slow build path. Most people aren't lined up for that extra effect to be more meaningful than the AP loss.

Kog's W is also core to his new and imo somewhat boring identity. He isn't a poke champion anymore. They killed that playstyle and shoved this one down our throats. When builds are so W centric, it should do more than a measly 2% max HP or at least have better scaling.

Edit: If he gets that E change, I guess it would be worth it but it sounds a bit counter to his designed weaknesses. The idea behind Kog is to be an unparalleled sustained damage source without tools to really escape bad situations. Sadly, he fails at that goal but I like the concept of it.

JefftiffyDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Really hate this idea. AP Kog has suffered a lot already and you want to make his Q scaling even worse? He already has almost no poke, almost no CC and a terribly slow build path. Most people aren't lined up for that extra effect to be more meaningful than the AP loss.

Kog's W is also core to his new and imo somewhat boring identity. He isn't a poke champion anymore. They killed that playstyle and shoved this one down our throats. When builds are so W centric, it should do more than a measly 2% max HP or at least have better scaling.

AP Kog could poke just as well and could poke through minions for harder. I wouldn't just sit there and turn down a massive amount of resistance shreds.

300 units really isnt that far. It literally buys him enough time to AA about 1-2 times before a melee champ is back on him.

Also Kog has to have a CC. Every immobile champ needs it. It's the only way they can not be power creeped by mobility. Removing it puts him back into feast or famine.

Let me list all the immobile champs that don't have CC: Mordekaiser .

Now tell me why this is a problem now (technically Morde has a very situation MS boost, but the times he can actually use it are very small). And now you see my point.

ofartDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

AP Kog could poke just as well and could poke through minions for harder. I wouldn't just sit there and turn down a massive amount of resistance shreds. 300 units really isnt that far.

I was referring to the old AP Kog which actually had an excellent poking style till they killed it. It took about 20 minutes to get level 11 and make his ult. really hurt but I really enjoyed that. I don't know how crushing build and stylistic diversity is a good thing but Riot certainly achieved it with this rework. He's a much less interesting and versatile champion.

JefftiffyDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I was referring to the old AP Kog which actually had an excellent poking style till they killed it. It took about 20 minutes to get level 11 and make his ult. really hurt but I really enjoyed that. I don't know how crushing build and stylistic diversity is a good thing but Riot certainly achieved it with this rework. He's a much less interesting and versatile champion.

Technically AP Kog was never meant to exist. He was made to be an ADC the AP ratios were for item 3078 which no longer gives AP scalings. Much like why Jax has AP scaling.

Ezreal was one of the few champs that were meant to actually be a mage, but people figured out that he worked really well as an ADC.

RebonackDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Technically AP Kog was never meant to exist. He was made to be an ADC the AP ratios were for which no longer gives AP scalings. Much like why Jax has AP scaling.

Ezreal was one of the few champs that were meant to actually be a mage, but people figured out that he worked really well as an ADC.

No?

Koggy was meant to be a hybrid champ from day one. Phreak even suggested building Rageblade on him back in the day (lol old rageblade)

ofartDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Technically AP Kog was never meant to exist. He was made to be an ADC the AP ratios were for which no longer gives AP scalings. Much like why Jax has AP scaling.

Ezreal was one of the few champs that were meant to actually be a mage, but people figured out that he worked really well as an ADC.

I don't know whether it's true or not but it also doesn't matter. Nearly 1/3 of Kog players played him mid AP for years and it was a style we liked. Many champions weren't initially designed for the role they occupy. I think Vi was intended to be a top laner for example.

What matters is where the fans took them and AP Kog has been a thing for a very long time. A rework killing a playstyle many of us liked isn't fair to the fans. It does more harm than good. The idea behind a rework is to improve a champion's versatility, satisfaction level, mastery elements, etc. none of which this rework succeeded in. Too often, I think Riot just gets bored and decides to make random reworks. Old Kog had no reason to be reworked and was a much more versatile and rich champion both strategically and in build paths.

JefftiffyDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't know whether it's true or not but it also doesn't matter. Nearly 1/3 of Kog players played him mid AP for years and it was a style many of us loved. Many champions weren't initially designed for the role they dominate. I think Vi was intended to be a top laner for example. What matters is where the fans took them and AP Kog has been a thing for a very long time and a rework killing a playstyle many of us liked isn't fair to the fans. It does more harm than good. The idea behind a rework is to improve a champion's versatility, satisfaction level, mastery elements, etc. none of which this rework succeeded in.

It did succeed for ADC Kog, but we are in a snowball meta where he isn't viable. They made him more AD focused and more AA focused instead of sniping people from a distance. AP Kog was a gimmick caused by item 3285 being op not that is wasn't a thing before.

ofartDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It did succeed for ADC Kog, but we are in a snowball meta where he isn't viable. They made him more AD focused and more AA focused instead of sniping people from a distance. AP Kog was a gimmick caused by being op not that is wasn't a thing before.

ADC Kog was already perfectly fine and had multiple build paths and styles. You could even do an on-hit BoRK-Wit's-Runaan's build last season with a strong mid-game. However, you also had the option to go for a crit. build. He is now overall worse and less flexible on top of it.

AP Kog had a resurgence due to Luden's but I don't see why that's relevant. When item choices become less one-dimensional, it's natural that niche styles become better as well. However, Luden's isn't what made AP Kog viable and I've played him long before that item even existed. He may not have been FoTM but he was a terrifying late game carry and had plenty of fans.

In fact, one of the coolest things about him was your ability to adapt to the team's needs. You could go a build where you substitute Luden's for Athene's to have weaker but more consistent poke. There were Rylai's + Liandry's builds for strong kiting and damage vs tanks. Some liked Luden's burst builds with high AP (no Rylai's or Liandry's) - sometimes even throwing in a Lich Bane. I've sometimes even gone Nashor's on him when my team had a strong frontline and the enemy team was composed mostly of tanky melees. Almost every item in the builds was situational except for Void Staff. Even Tear was sometimes replaced by RoA vs assassins. The order of items was also fluid and sometimes I would keep components like Chalice or HG un-upgraded to address more immediate concerns. Due to how much freedom you had, mastering AP Kog felt as rewarding as understanding a dozen other champions. The rework killed many of those styles as well as build diversity. Even if they bring him up to bar and I end-up doing better than with the old version, I doubt that I will have the same enjoyment.

delonixDec 19, 20153 votes

55% damage at double attack speed is a 10% damage increase (1 hit at 100% vs 2 hits at 55%). Plus it gives him bonus range, so if they're out of range of W, they're way out of range of normal autoattacks. Plus it gives him % max health magic damage on-hit, which is great when you have double attack speed.

Kog'maw still might be on the weak side, but I think you have some misconceptions about W.

KaisadiIIaDec 19, 20152 votes

Personally I think his old % max health boost was pretty good, while the current's one is really weak. 4% max health is not worth the liability I think.

delonixDec 19, 20151 votes

I don't remember the exact numbers from pre-5.22, but even if the % max health isn't as strong, the doubled attack speed should make up for it when Kog gets some on-hit items.

KaisadiIIaDec 19, 20151 votes

With 4% I meant 2% x2 (because of doubled AS). Before it was 6% iirc. I don't know, but I think Kog doesn't work because his archetype isn't supported by the game. If we had a new set of items oriented to hybrid champions, a la AP + AS champions, along with new hybrid champions he would probably see play with those items, because he really synergyzes with them. Right now you can't build like that because you only have Nashor's and Guinsoo.

tl;dr: I really hope to see more Kayles and Jaxes so RIOT introduces new hybrid items that Kog can build.

3TWarriorDec 19, 20151 votes

there's also Gunblade, but it's expensive and the build path is slow

KaisadiIIaDec 20, 20151 votes

Yeah, but I think Gunblade is often overshadowed by BotRK.

Carpe VictoriaDec 18, 20154 votes

If Kog's W was passive he would be the most broken champ in this game.

BonipherusDec 19, 20154 votes

Yes Rebonack! Thank you! THIS is the disconnect I've always known to be here but have never been able to put into words! Kog's cooldown on W doesn't synergize with his sustained dps fanatasy because of his sheer dependence on that skill.

RebonackDec 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes Rebonack! Thank you! THIS is the disconnect I've always known to be here but have never been able to put into words! Kog's cooldown on W doesn't synergize with his sustained dps fanatasy because of his sheer dependence on that skill.

Yeah, it was a real head-scratcher when Meddler replied with that.

Damage over six seconds isn't burst, but it doesn't really fit with the whole 'massive sustained damage threat' niche that Riot seems to want Koggy to fit into, either.

Hell, Vayne can get pretty darn close to Koggy's damage when her Ult is up. And when her Ult is down her damage is a hell of a lot better than Kog's without W.

BonipherusDec 20, 20151 votes

I know that your threads really focus on Kog'Maw and that you only tend to play dominion but what other marksmen do you find do not fit their niche or gameplay fantasy? I know of one that I feel sticks out pretty heavily in terms of a disconnect of gameplay fantasy while I still feel like some are too similar to fulfill unique fantasies or diverse niches other than early game vs late game.

ofartDec 19, 20153 votes

Here's a change they can make which would help Kog's fantasy quite a bit and can be added to his kit today with no worries about balance:

HAVE W'S CD RESET ON KILLS AND ASSISTS!

Kog's huge mana costs on everything already gate this but if it turns out to be too strong, it can be changed to reduce the W CD by 50%. This elegant change fits perfectly with Kog's style and rewards a team for playing around him too since now Kog can potentially be useful for the entirety of a fight instead of just the beginning and the end. I only worry that we will now have Kogspotting in addition to Vaynespotting when hero Kogs go for some risky all-in to get the W reset and possibly clean-up.

Lady HammerlockDec 19, 20152 votes

Ashe does a better job at sustained dmg

alfavhunterDec 18, 20151 votes

Remove kogmaw current passive

Make his W his new passive but scaling per lvl of kog R (gets better at 6/11/16) and no longer gives attack range bonus (As, on hit damage, deals 55% or w/e the value is, range increases at lvls)

W is now hungry focus

Causing kog maw his auto attacks can now be performed while moving if the target is effected by his Q E or R for 3/4/5/6/7 seconds

Axis the DragonDec 19, 20154 votes

Allowing him to auto while moving would be ridiculous

RebonackDec 19, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txlGL51M,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-12-19T04:41:46.372+0000)

Allowing him to auto while moving would be ridiculous

I doubt that would ever happen.

Riot has gotten enough shit from Kalista's existence. Koggy is at heart an immobile champion. Being able to attack and move at the same time would be anything but.

Steven McburnDec 19, 20151 votes

The problem people have with kog is they build attack speed and they build it early.

His kit screams just build a crap ton of early game damage, you get so much free attack speed that there is 0 reason to rush into any form of attack speed at all.

And misinformed people like you claiming his auto-animation isn't usable on the move even though in W it's literally the fastest auto-animation in the game and can be used while moving at full speed.

Doesn't really matter though, he's strong right now and riot will just make him stronger. Nothing feels better than blasting the hell out of someone who tries to run and swapping targets while dropping your execution-style-ult on the runner. Can't wait for it to get even more obscene.

Chuck CharlesDec 20, 20151 votes

can people please stop calling for kog maw buffs, he is actually stronger than you think. he truly is a beast late game with that W and can melt through just about anyone in its duration. he needs windows of vulnerability. everyone does. just play against a decent ADC who is using kog maw and you will find his late game is honestly quite scary. hell his guinsoos spike is pretty disgusting right now.

the ADCs that feel left in the dust right now are Ezreal and Twitch. Ezreal doesn't really seem to have any reason to pick him. If you want poke, Varus does it better. if you want mobility, well there are quite a few champs that are mobile that also aren't weak early like Lucian.

Twitch was assassin ADC who could team fight, well he's still decent at that, but the buffs to all the other adcs while he sits the same has just made his early game even weaker in comparison. he cannot trade with anyone really. his extended trades aren't even good anymore which was his main strength originally. I think out of all the ADCs, its not Kog maw who needs love. Its twitch.

BonipherusDec 20, 20151 votes

This isn't about buffs. It's about gameplay fantasy and fitting a particular strategic role. Some of these suggested changes can happen and still retain his current power or even nerf him depending on other necessary number changes.

Chuck CharlesDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This isn't about buffs. It's about gameplay fantasy and fitting a particular strategic role. Some of these suggested changes can happen and still retain his current power or even nerf him depending on other necessary number changes.

you would absolutely have to nerf him elsewhere or he would become broken. Koggy currently shreds through anyone come late game and it is terrifying on a level I honestly havent' seen in awhile. this is fine. I'm ok with that. refreshing his W duration on kill or assist would just make him far too strong. he needs a window where he's the best ADC in the game and a time where he's still strong, but not quite on that level. if you reset he will just get one kill and then his power never ever dips in a team fight.

Jinx and Tristana are already the reset queens. we don't need another.

BonipherusDec 20, 20151 votes

I'm not in favor of the reset mechanic either. Doesn't suit the void puppy.

RebonackDec 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM Lux Boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txlGL51M,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2015-12-20T00:27:06.863+0000)

can people please stop calling for kog maw buffs, he is actually stronger than you think.

Stronger compared to who?

he truly is a beast late game with that W and can melt through just about anyone in its duration. he needs windows of vulnerability. everyone does.

Aside from his crippling early game? But sure, okay. Mind telling me what Jinx' window of vulnerability is?

just play against a decent ADC who is using kog maw and you will find his late game is honestly quite scary. hell his guinsoos spike is pretty disgusting right now.

Scary under a very specific, very narrow range of situations. Koggy has more counters available against him than any other ADC, both in terms of items and in terms of champion picks.

the ADCs that feel left in the dust right now are Ezreal and Twitch.

See, up to this point I was taking you seriously. Why are you troling my thread?

Ezreal doesn't really seem to have any reason to pick him. If you want poke, Varus does it better. if you want mobility, well there are quite a few champs that are mobile that also aren't weak early like Lucian.

So what if you want poke and mobility? You say that there's no reason to pick him, and yet he's one of the most picked Rangers in the game. Number four, in fact. Probably my Dominion bias, but Ez is probably the strongest ADC over there.

Twitch was assassin ADC who could team fight, well he's still decent at that, but the buffs to all the other adcs while he sits the same has just made his early game even weaker in comparison. he cannot trade with anyone really. his extended trades aren't even good anymore which was his main strength originally. I think out of all the ADCs, its not Kog maw who needs love. Its twitch.

Twitch is doing really, really well right now? I'm not sure what else to say. This is like people complaining that Annie is bad.

Chuck CharlesDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Stronger compared to who?

Aside from his crippling early game? But sure, okay. Mind telling me what Jinx' window of vulnerability is?

Scary under a very specific, very narrow range of situations. Koggy has more counters available against him than any other ADC, both in terms of items and in terms of champion picks.

See, up to this point I was taking you seriously. Why are you troling my thread?

So what if you want poke and mobility? You say that there's no reason to pick him, and yet he's one of the most picked Rangers in the game. Number four, in fact. Probably my Dominion bias, but Ez is probably the strongest ADC over there.

Twitch is doing really, really well right now? I'm not sure what else to say. This is like people complaining that Annie is bad.

his early game should be bad considering how good his late game is. thats the point. and Kog spikes pretty hard currently with just one item (rageblade) so I wouldn't say he is weak for very long.

no reason to pick ezreal really unless you just want to be super duper safe. you would never pick him solely for damage or utility. there are other champs who do all that better. you literally only pick him to be safe.

no idea why you think twitch is good. twitch is good late game but his early game is even worse than Kog maw's and he does not spike super hard with one item anymore. BORk is in a bad spot and that is a nerf to twitch. the buffed ghostblade, but that just means that twitch is weaker for longer now since bork > gunblade is his typical go to. you can go other items like typical adc or hurricane, but overall he's just in a bad state in the early game. I think I could see him used by the highest of elos where snowballing legit takes over games, but his lane phase is just bad. You can't pick him into Lucian or miss fortune even as they will simply destroy him in lane.

RebonackDec 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM Lux Boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txlGL51M,comment-id=001500010000,timestamp=2015-12-20T09:16:36.391+0000)

his early game should be bad considering how good his late game is. thats the point. and Kog spikes pretty hard currently with just one item (rageblade) so I wouldn't say he is weak for very long.

Yes yes, super-strong late game despite the fact that Riot removed his hyper-carry curve when they removed the AD ratio from his W.

Still didn't answer my question, though.

What's Jinx' window of weakness?

no reason to pick ezreal really unless you just want to be super duper safe. you would never pick him solely for damage or utility. there are other champs who do all that better. you literally only pick him to be safe.

Super-duper safe is a pretty solid reason to pick him. Which probably explains why he's the number 6 most picked ADC.

no idea why you think twitch is good.

He's doing well at the moment because he's a counter-pick (in plat+ at least) against Vayne and has a favorable matchup against Cait, Graves, and Jinx. Lucian and MF beat him, though. Kog has favorable matchups against no one.

Overall, 2% of high level ranked games have a winning twitch in them. Which isn't particularly bad. Kog by contrast clocks in at about half a percent. There are four times as many games with Twitch winning as Kog.

LaughingStaplerDec 20, 20151 votes

If resetting W or reducing its cd significantly on kills or assists, is too strong, there is another way. However, keep in mind that Jinx and Tristana's resets are much stronger than Kog's anyway because of the immense mobility they gain.

Kills or assists could extend W's duration by 1-2 seconds. This way, he is better rewarded for knowing exactly when to activate W and can maintain good ADC DPS for longer when the team actually protects him. If W wasn't active when the kill or assist was given, it would do nothing. This means with one kill/assist, he'd have the old W duration.

Although, I think if they just bring W's on-hit to 3% base and add .25% back to the AP scaling, he'd already be fine both mid and ADC. He'd still be pigeonholed into a more AA centric build since they basically killed the poke style most mid Kog players loved but he'd be competitive.

RebonackDec 20, 20151 votes

I honestly think the best thing Riot could do for AP Koggy would be to improve the AP ratio significantly on his Ult, but make it so it doesn't increase with the execute damage.

So AP Kog would have much stronger poke while AD Kog would have a bitchin' execute.

It would help to further resolve the two play styles.

JimmyNutrin69Dec 20, 20151 votes

make his w a toggle that roots him and gives him a small shield. it takes .75 seconds to unroot. itd make him a turret and pretty fun to play, to me atleast