Is the Sleep what makes Zoe so hated?

iiGazeii··2 votes·2,405 views

Hello!

One of my favorite champions is Zoe Zoe , but the community in general seems to despise her.

It's understandable, really. A small target that can stun you from a screen away and chunk you doesn't feel fun to play against. Nobody likes losing control of their character.

Now, hear me out; what if her Portal Jump got moved to E, and her ult was replaced with something new entirely? Something worthy of a 30-120 second cooldown.

This would do a number of good things for Zoe.

For one, she'd have her Portal Jump available as soon as level 2 (or 1, but that probably wouldn't be optimal), letting her play from long range in the early game, dodge enemy skill shots during laning, trigger Sudden Impact before level 6, and overall have her iconic combo ready from the start.

She would have an appropriate level 6 power spike more typical of a midlane mage, allowing her power to be gated like other similar champions. Level 6 isn't a very massive power spike for Zoe. Other midlane mages get an ability that lets them pressure other lanes (TwistedFate , Ryze , Taliyah), secure their lane with a huge spike in damage (Annie ,Ahri, Syndra ), or getting a CC tool that lets them keep themselves safe in the midgame and secure kills in teamfights (AurelionSol ,Azir , Orianna )

Zoe gets a short hop. Not that there's anything wrong with a short hop, but it feels more like a fourth ability than an ultimate ability. It doesn't function as an escape or as mobility, since it brings her back to her starting position. It doesn't function as a damage tool directly, only opening more angles for her sleep and extending the range of her Paddle Star. It's a brief reposition that is undeniably useful, but not really an ultimate. Her power spikes comes mostly from completing items like item 3285 or item 3100 , which undoubtedly makes her difficult to balance. Having a strong ultimate on a longer cooldown would let Zoe have that level 6 power spike, rewarding her for doing what she's good at (poking, winning short trades) to bully the enemy out of lane and get an XP lead. Right now, Zoe isn't as rewarded for a good laning phase as other midlane mages, but she's still punished harshly for a poor one, and doesn't have an ult that can help her make a comeback.

One problem is that her sleep is Zoe's only defense. She's an immobile mage that depends on her sleep to avoid ganks. Increasing her attack range and/or base movement speed could be a good direction, encouraging Zoe to dance at the edge of her opponent's range and letting her run away when she gets ganked. Alternatively, adding a slow component to Paddle Star and/or More Sparkles! would let her keep her distance from enemies as long as she can hit them first. Her new ult would likely need to be a CC ultimate, or a roaming one.

A hilarious idea would essentially be an enhanced version of Portal Jump, letting Zoe instantly travel anywhere on the map, hopping from portal to portal for ten seconds or so, until she is brought back to her starting position. She could shove the wave in mid, pop over to the store to buy, show up bot lane to land a Paddle Star on the carry, zip up to top to assist the top laner getting ganked, then reappear midlane under tower. It would suit her trickster character and let her put pressure on other lanes as a reward for hitting 6 first, similar to TwistedFate.

18 Comments

EvilUnicornLord2 votes

It's design.

I would go into further detail, but I'd rather not spend an hour+ writing so here's what I put on the League of Legends Amino. It goes into why she's hated pretty well.

https://aminoapps.com/c/league-of-legends/page/blog/why-zoe-is-hated/b4Uo_u82xE8al2J1Qnx5RKR8334o31

(Fair warning, the on-computer website structure is a lot worse than in the phone app.)

iiGazeii2 votes

I can respect that, and I agree. From a lore and design standpoint, I don't think Riot had a solid direction to take Zoe. She had so much potential to be an interesting character, but she's so oblivious and air-headed that none of that potential really hits home. She's a lonely little girl with so much cosmic power that only wants to make friends, but that power separates her from others and gives her more responsibility than she'd like.

However, I'm looking specifically at gameplay. People don't ban champions because their lore is boring, they ban them because out of all the champions they might face, that is the one they don't want to play against. The devs are actively working on making some changes to Zoe to make her feel more fair to fight against, and I'm trying to gather what the community thinks is the problem and what are directions they'd like to see Zoe in.

EvilUnicornLord2 votes

The opinion on gameplay always differs.

"She can oneshot." "Zoe's misses her skillshots and still kills you." "Cancer champion, delet Zoe rito."

Personally, I think her poor gameplay design is how she utilizes mechanics that were already unhealthy on other champions (the increased damage based on range wasn't fun to deal with on Nidalee's spears) and takes things that were set in stone and dumps them on their heads (she pretty much gets more than two summoner spells which are really impactful and have long cooldowns for a reason) not to mention the passive that grants her free damage despite missing her abilities. While it's debatable whether she's still broken or not, she remains incredibly unfun to play against (even moreso than Teemo or Yasuo) unless Riot decides to completely scrap and rework her from the ground up.

In any case, she's a huge mess of a champion.

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

The opinion on gameplay always differs.

"She can oneshot." "Zoe's misses her skillshots and still kills you." "Cancer champion, delet Zoe rito."

Personally, I think her poor gameplay design is how she utilizes mechanics that were already unhealthy on other champions (the increased damage based on range wasn't fun to deal with on Nidalee's spears) and takes things that were set in stone and dumps them on their heads (she pretty much gets more than two summoner spells which are really impactful and have long cooldowns for a reason) not to mention the passive that grants her free damage despite missing her abilities. While it's debatable whether she's still broken or not, she remains incredibly unfun to play against (even moreso than Teemo or Yasuo) unless Riot decides to completely scrap and rework her from the ground up.

In any case, she's a huge mess of a champion.

Interesting could you name me a carry that hasn't been called most of those things at one point.

The problem is you are being very vague and not explaining why.

Second you seem to not understand why her W was so strong in the first place when you having streamers say way back last year that her W could give 0 summons and be strong and that was because of her missiles and more sparkles. The summons themselves were not the ones dishing out all the damage. They gutted that really hard and her WR tanked because of it. In fact if they removed the summons but kept her W ratio the same her WR would of stayed the same and she would of been able to kill ppl while missing everything because of the Missiles and more sparkles.

The real problem with asking most people whats wrong with her kit is they actually do not know enough about it, even the basics.

EvilUnicornLord2 votes

I would, but you're just being stubborn.

Return when you aren't going to take all my examples and go "Oh but this one is actually unhealthy because [insert exaggerated mechanic]."

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

It's design.

I would go into further detail, but I'd rather not spend an hour+ writing so here's what I put on the League of Legends Amino. It goes into why she's hated pretty well.

https://aminoapps.com/c/league-of-legends/page/blog/why-zoe-is-hated/b4Uo_u82xE8al2J1Qnx5RKR8334o31

(Fair warning, the on-computer website structure is a lot worse than in the phone app.)

Read this and am going to break down some of the things wrong with it.

For starters your premise and assumption is that all champions meet the following requirements except Zoe:

  • Satisfying to Play

  • Resonant Themes

  • Skill-expressive

  • Fair

  • Unique

When the truth of the matter is there are 0 champions that meet all these requirements.

Now lets break down your responses to every category

  • Satisfying to Play

Your response here is clearly biased and this one is a bit dishonest because there are people who do not find her satisfying to play(like you) and people who do(like me). I mean you can go no further then YouTube and see all the reactions people had while playing her to completely counter your argument here. Her problem is how annoying she is to play against.

  • Resonant Themes

Another short and biased opinion here, you didn't even try.

Skill-expressive

You made this post a day ago(well after her nerfs) and clearly haven't played with or against her. If you miss your abilities with Zoe in the current patch you will not kill anyone. So yes she has a lot more skill expression now, you have no idea what you are talking about.

  • Fair

You seem to misunderstood what fair means therefore you created an argument about summoner spells that are both inaccurate and outdated. You did not mention that you can not only see the spells she has but also the spells on the ground. You also didnt mention you could use the spells on the ground to punish her or all in her if she tries to go for them. You also didn't mention that a lot of power was taken away form her W to the point that the W itself(even with damage summons) does significantly less damage. You also didnt mention that the reason they were doing so much in the first place was about of the missiles and more sparkles(both got nerfed hard).

What it comes down to when Riot says Fair, they mean does it have any counterplay which it does.

Then the rest of it is just a random tangent of things that do not make sense.

All in all i felt more like i wasted time reading it then actually gaining anything insightful.

EvilUnicornLord1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txUlcEWf,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-09-02T07:18:45.920+0000)

Read this and am going to break down some of the things wrong with it.

For starters your premise and assumption is that all champions meet the following requirements except Zoe:

I did not say that, I said "As Riot has stated, a good champion has five points that they strike:" the word "all" makes no appearance in that sentence. Clearly, other champions have failed to meet those five points before but there are also some that hit the nail right on the head.

  • Satisfying to Play

  • Resonant Themes

  • Skill-expressive

  • Fair

  • Unique

When the truth of the matter is there are 0 champions that meet all these requirements.

First of all, that's what Riot said, I was just quoting them. Secondly, that's incorrect. While the first point is rather dependent on the person and one person might find Ivern satisfying to play and another might find him boring, the rest can and often do appear on many champions.

Take Kled for instance. He is satisfying to succeed with. Barely holding off a mob of attackers until Skaarl comes marching in to turn the tide is extremely rewarding.

He has a resonant theme. He's wild, uncouth, and somewhat insane and his kit reflects that by having you dive headlong into the enemy with reckless abandon cussing and flinging beartraps all the way.

He is skill expressive. You can narrowly avoid nasty skillshots with well-timed dashes and playing your cards right while dismounted is your ticket to success.

He is fair. Of course people who pick Yasuo into the guy and inevitably lose because Kled counters Yasuo are going to say he's unfair but they call anything they lose to overpowered and broken. It is wholly possible to dodge his pokes, gradually whittle his health away until Skaarl flees, and then burst him down before he can bring Skaarl back and, like beating any champion you're on equal footing with, it's your skill against his.

He is unique. Try your absolute hardest to think of a champion he's similar to in playstyle and character. Best I can come up with is Jax and they aren't remotely similar.

Now lets break down your responses to every category

  • Satisfying to Play

Your response here is clearly biased and this one is a bit dishonest because there are people who do not find her satisfying to play(like you) and people who do(like me). I mean you can go no further then YouTube and see all the reactions people had while playing her to completely counter your argument here. Her problem is how annoying she is to play against.

My response is biased? My response was "I can't honestly say how she fares on the first point (new champions cost a ton)" clearly indicating that I have not played her because she costs a lot of blue essence that I don't want to spend. So I'm saying that I don't know how satisfying to play she is.

  • Resonant Themes

Another short and biased opinion here, you didn't even try.

I was agreeing that she succeeded on this point while also making a witty jab at her. She does have a resonant theme because she's madly obsessed with sparkles and being obnoxious (in character and in gameplay).

Skill-expressive

You made this post a day ago(well after her nerfs) and clearly haven't played with or against her. If you miss your abilities with Zoe in the current patch you will not kill anyone. So yes she has a lot more skill expression now, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I did not say she misses all her abilities and kills you, I said she misses all her abilities and "still does away with a hefty chunk of hp with an auto-attack". Lux's passive is still skill-expressive because you have to land your abilities on your target in order to get an empowered auto-attack, Zoe just misses but still gets extra damage.

  • Fair

You seem to misunderstood what fair means therefore you created an argument about summoner spells that are both inaccurate and outdated. You did not mention that you can not only see the spells she has but also the spells on the ground. You also didnt mention you could use the spells on the ground to punish her or all in her if she tries to go for them. You also didn't mention that a lot of power was taken away form her W to the point that the W itself(even with damage summons) does significantly less damage. You also didnt mention that the reason they were doing so much in the first place was about of the missiles and more sparkles(both got nerfed hard).

What it comes down to when Riot says Fair, they mean does it have any counterplay which it does.

I would argue that my point about summoner spells remains solid. If you start out a match, you see what your opponent has and they see what you have so you can safely expect nothing more from them. While some runes and items can slightly decrease summoner spell cooldown, you can rightly assume they can't flash twice within the same short period of time because summoner spells (namely flash) can be extremely impactful and are often the ace-in-the-hole for just about every champion with very few exceptions. Zoe gets access to more than two summoner spells. Yes, she has to pick up the spells that are dropped either by champions or minions but that's still an unhealthy mechanic since she can punish you for using your own summoners.

Then the rest of it is just a random tangent of things that do not make sense.

Clearly you have no care in the world for character design. Each to his/her own.

All in all i felt more like i wasted time reading it then actually gaining anything insightful.

It seems to me like you're hating on what I put up because you like Zoe and are immediately offended by anyone who says she's flawed. Actually, hold on a second.

Yes. You play a lot of Zoe.

The problem here is that you didn't heed the introduction. Rather than reading and learning a thing or two (like many other people who also like Zoe did, check the comments) about why Zoe is looked upon so unfavorably, you just falsely assumed this was a ragepost about how "I hate Zoe and she needs to be deleted" and sought out things you could argue about.

That post was not intended to vent. In fact, I don't even hate Zoe. I don't like her either, I find her design atrocious but I can't say I've gone midlane against Zoe enough to have built an intense loathing for such a champion.

I wrote that based off of what I know about why Zoe is so unfavored. It's not a plea for nerfs or deleting the champion entirely. It is a close analysis as to why so many people in the community despise Zoe so people who enjoy playing her can understand their point of view.

I'm not a fan of people who let their adoration of the champion cloud their sense of judgement and disregard everyone who speaks negatively about Zoe as swine, picking one or two things to gripe about while missing the point, and storming off. As a result, I will not continue this discussion unless you return to the post and read it thoroughly with a clear mind.

Alex h87211 votes

IMO its the W rng that can win lanes (free ignites, free redemption can swing top/botlane, free barriers/heal), the bubble is dodgeable as is Q

Its All Skillzz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Alex h8721,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txUlcEWf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-01T23:57:39.699+0000)

IMO its the W rng that can win lanes (free ignites, free redemption can swing top/botlane, free barriers/heal), the bubble is dodgeable as is Q

This, having a zoe lvl 3/4 grab a proto belt/ignite/heal/barrier and just all in you with all the extra damage/support is beyond stupid, ontop of having almost no weak time to go in on her since she will always have a summoner handy, and ofc using shit like gunblade actives or zhonya or whatever you spent 3k+ gold on to help kill you is stupid, i play alot of gunblade ezreal into zoe and having her take my fking item active an kill me or my teammates with it is pretty stupid when she doesnt own the item herself, but yea i have the most problems with her W, giving all summoners/actives before the items are even purchased or in the game. once had a zoe who i ignited and she was dead flash ontop of me to grab my ignite an used it on me to kill me and trade 1 for 1.

Crimson Zeppelin2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its All Skillzz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txUlcEWf,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-09-02T03:02:00.344+0000)

This, having a zoe lvl 3/4 grab a proto belt/ignite/heal/barrier and just all in you with all the extra damage/support is beyond stupid, ontop of having almost no weak time to go in on her since she will always have a summoner handy, and ofc using shit like gunblade actives or zhonya or whatever you spent 3k+ gold on to help kill you is stupid, i play alot of gunblade ezreal into zoe and having her take my fking item active an kill me or my teammates with it is pretty stupid when she doesnt own the item herself, but yea i have the most problems with her W, giving all summoners/actives before the items are even purchased or in the game. once had a zoe who i ignited and she was dead flash ontop of me to grab my ignite an used it on me to kill me and trade 1 for 1.

Playing mid ezreal and building gunblade other that pretty much everything, and getting used it on you is a poor decision made on your part not riot.

Khristophoros1 votes

Like any widely hated champ, it's the whole kit. It's not just one thing. It's a critical mass of annoying mechanics that come together with great synergy that makes the champ feel extremely unfair frequently while playing against it.

iiGazeii1 votes

{quoted}

Work on adjusting what it's like to play against Zoe's still underway. Nothing concrete to share at present, will update when we've got something.

The devs are currently working on making Zoe more fun to play against. I'm just trying to understand what makes her that way.

Are you saying that even if Zoe were to lose Sleepy Trouble Bubble, you'd still find her unfun to face? I think she'd be similar to Karthus or Malzahar , i.e., no hard CC in the early game, but with punishing skillshots that let her control her enemy's positioning.

Khristophoros1 votes

Well sure she would be significantly less frustrating to play against if you removed an entire ability but she would need a new ability in its place to make up for the lost power. So we'd have to see how her kit plays with whatever that new ability is.

iiGazeii1 votes

In my post, I suggested that Sleepy Trouble Bubble be replaced with Portal Jump, adding the damage of her old E into her other abilities and giving her a new R that is at a similar cooldown and powerlevel as other midlane mages, perhaps with some added base movement speed, movement speed from Q/passive hits, or increased attack range to make up for her lack of CC.

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

In my opinion, the main reason why Zoe, who has an abysmal 46.5% win rate even with just a 5.28% play rate, is so hated on the boards is because the vast majority of people who hate her are simply bad players who'd rather echo-chamber with other Zoe haters than actually learn how to play against her.

Sure, Zoe's damage can feel oppressive when she's ahead, but she is so easy to punish that it very rarely happens. Even when she does get ahead, she's so squishy and easy to shut down.

There are some high elo and pro players who also dislike Zoe, but in their case, it's because Zoe's kit in the hands of a pro allows her a lot of opportunities to do massive damage relatively safely with the support of other pro-level players.

Keep in mind, the vast VAST majority of Zoe haters are definitely NOT pros and do not play with pros.

TheSingularity1 votes

Her design simply doesn't meld well with league. Because it grants her tools that're almost unparalleled (they're either one of a kind, or every other version of the tool is garbage in comparison). These problems are also shared with yasuo, Kalista and azir. And they all fit under one banner, obnoxious.

Personally I haven't faced many zoe's, but I didn't have to in order to identify an obnoxious little brat of a champion.

Her visual design Her running animation, facial expression which they made sure to make very clear to the naked eye without zooming and her animations honestly make me want to dive into a sensory deprivation tank. All of it screams obnoxious which only makes dealing with her kit worse. Yasuo is the most similar champion in this regard, primarily through his E and audio. Every 5 dam seconds we hear HASAGI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or if he's using his E it's a constant barrage of swish, swoosh, swish, swoosh as he dances around you because you likely can't stop him from doing so.

Her kit

P: More Sparkles! INNATE: After casting an ability, Zoe's next basic attack within 5 seconds deals 10 - 124 (based on level) (+ 20% AP) bonus magic damage.

Change this to "every time zoe lands an ability "" Zoe's next basic attack within 5 seconds deals 10 - 124 (based on level) (+ 20% AP) bonus magic damage."" and everything is dandy. Zoe has to be good to kill me, or I have to fk up. No more of the spam in random direction to kill with passive+sheen.

This is a huge part of the "I missed every single ability but obnoxiously killed you anyway". And no one likes dying in that situation. Because she stat checked you (in other words you play perfectly and you would still lose, that's how stat checks work).

Q: Paddle Star

Honestly there isn't much wrong with this spell. However dumping 99% of her burst into this 1 spell was a stupid decision but is only a problem with her sleep, which I will get to.

W: Spell Thief Collecting a Spell Shard allows Zoe to activate Spell Thief within the next 60 seconds. She can replace her current Spell Thief active by moving directly onto another Spell Shard.

This is the biggest problem, and the biggest offender of the unparalleled tools. No other champions steals summoner spells or actives. Then she gets random one's for farming, then additional auto targeted damage just for using them? There's nothing fair about this spell. I could just not use ignite/flash, but instead she will use the ignite/flash she got from minions on top of her own summoners. As others have said, there's a reason summoner spells have stupidly long cooldowns. Same with items. There is one solution to this spell, get rid of it.

Sleepy Trouble Bubble

Honestly why make me drowsy for 1.4 seconds? Just stun me for 1 second and get the 1 shot over with. It adds nothing but dread for the opposition. My issue with this spell, and yes "my" issue is the ticking time bomb that simply hits home the "HAHA! I GOT YOU!". Again, stupidly obnoxious. Then I'm essentially stunned for over 2 seconds, longer than most stuns accessible in the game (longer than sejuani's ultimate).

Get rid of the obnoxious drowsiness, buff the range, nerf the hitbox and remove that stupid after-math sleep pool (which they apparently are already doing).

Portal Jump Zoe will always blink-back to her original location, even if she is Stun icon immobilized or killed.

Only 2 issues, the way this spell forces riot to distribute her damage. Since it deals no damage and serves only as a mobility spell, she has no true level 6 spike or true ultimate. This forces her stupid one shot combo that feels awful to die to or for her to spam you down with enhanced autos. The other is how disables do not stop it. If I stun yasuo during E he stops. I stun nautilus during Q he stops. Why does this little brat get a "get out of jail free card" when she fks up her ultimate?. If I land my E as vel'koz, syndra, heimierdinger or anivia's Q, I expect to have the reward for doing so, just as Zoe gets the reward of landing her bubble, that being she is stuck right where I stunned her, ready for me to devour. She fucks up, then she deserves to get decimated. Same if I get hit with her E. Remove this special treatment.

In my opinion, this is the issue with Zoe; why so many hate her, ban her, hate having her in their games and why she will never be a balanced and healthy champion in this game

iiGazeii1 votes

I can respect that, but I disagree that she can never be balanced.

I think Riot can definitely put more emphasis on actually landing her skillshot for damage rather than missing and still chunking you with More Sparkles and the Spell Thief passive.

I'd love to see More Sparkles only trigger on-hit, but either have more damage or additional utility, like a movement speed increase or CDR for zapping a champion. Similarly, changing the trap of Sleepy Trouble Bubble to an AoE slowing zone would make it a less forgiving skillshot while still letting Zoe line up a Paddle Star.

Lunar ArcS1 votes

It's how she can pick up an ignite at lv 3 from a minion and stomp you in lane. Her entire kit is fucking toxic as hell

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