PSA from your jungler

the Anarchit3cht·Feb 17, 2015·25 votes·2,678 views

Just because I didn't camp lane your lane and force an auto win for you(not my job, i have 2 other lanes as well as objectives to play for) does not mean you can take half my jungle when it respawns because I'm ganking a lane or contesting dragon. Me (politely at first) asking you to stop taking my farm does not make me a "greedy bitch". As a matter of fact, you taking half my jungle for the second half of the game makes YOU the "greedy bitch." You have an entire lane that will get you more farm than you could ever imagine. If you're really hurting, ask me. I don't mind giving you a camp here and there if I can afford it(which if I get a good gank or two, I can). Hell, I'll even take you through the enemy jungle and let you take a few of their camps. Regardless, calling me a greedy bitch and saying, "you're champ x you should counter jungle anyway" are not reasonable excuses for you taking all my farm.

Sincerely, the "greedy bitch" of a jungler who ended the game with 1/3 your farm.

65 Comments

BluePolarizerFeb 17, 20157 votes

Hell no. I don't take that shit from anyone. I play Master Yi, Udyr and other carry junglers, and if they take my jungle I just waveclear to enemy tower then proxy their lane. fk that shit, don't ever take farm from a carry jungler.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 17, 20151 votes

That would have been possible I suppose if he didn't feed the enemy fizz like 5 kills first.

BluePolarizerFeb 17, 20154 votes

Smite every camp he's at, burn skills to last hit, do anything to stop him from farming. Just follow him. Since you lost anyways, might as well teach him a lesson. Give him the message "You think you can outjungle me without smite? Fking good luck"

the Anarchit3chtFeb 17, 20151 votes

We won, actually. Our bot lane did very well and I was able to gank for them enough(not that they needed it) to at least stay semi-relevant. Blitz kept good tabs on dragon and they were always around to try and get it. Funny thing is, the one person who wasn't around at ANY dragon was the yasuo--he was too busy clearing my jungle. As I was about 3 levels behind, my smite was very weak in comparison to how easily he was blowing up camps.

BluePolarizerFeb 17, 20151 votes

im amazed he feeds 5 kills yet still has items to take jungle.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 17, 20151 votes

because i ganked for him and got him some kills/assists/pushed the enemy out of lane so he could farm up.

BluePolarizerFeb 17, 20151 votes

i dont ever gank for losing lanes, waste of time. if any losing lane even thinks about taking my jungle I'm just gonna waveclear in their lane. Always play a jungler with AOE so you can waveclear lanes when no one is there. You can't trust bronze/silver/gold mids or tops.

SerevasFeb 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

i dont ever gank for losing lanes, waste of time. if any losing lane even thinks about taking my jungle I'm just gonna waveclear in their lane. Always play a jungler with AOE so you can waveclear lanes when no one is there. You can't trust bronze/silver/gold mids or tops.

See your logic is exceptionally flawed if you have a bot lane that's winning, you don't have proper gank room there anyway not to mention that they don't even need it in the first place, because they're taking down turrets and winning fights.

A smart jungler would say, gee making mid win means we have complete control over dragon, which is a pretty important objective in the game. A retarded jungler goes dee dee dee I'm going to repeatedly tower dive bot lane for no reason.

Any jungler will tell you that the point is to try and make lanes win, not to feed yourself into obesity and forget everyone else. Especially if you're a "carry jungler" like Yi, who will get immediately focused and hard CC will obliterate you. If you overfeed yourself and starve your laners, when you die, because you will unless the enemy team is completely retarded, the rest of your team gets steamrolled with zero chance of winning.

I'm not sure why I'm arguing this point with you, because it sure sounds like you have zero concept of objective control. So have a nice day.

BluePolarizerFeb 17, 20151 votes

lol, maybe in silver mids that feed 0-5 are worth salvaging or can be salvaged, but probably not elsewhere. Maybe in silver, the enemy mid who is anywhere from 1-0 to 5-0 (depending on how many kills everyone else got from the buffet mid) hasn't already established control over dragon, and thus it would be a waste of time to contest and possibly feed them even harder. Maybe in silver the mids that are 0-5 will suddenly get better positioning or timing once they're not 0-5.

they're obviously getting dominated because they're trash in the shortest lane, easiest lane to run to safety, etc. Why bother? Take a tower or something while they're at dragon, the buff isn't that important except buff 1, buff 3 and buff 5, and trading a tower to get gold, map pressure and maybe even a kill is worth when your team is behind.

I don't know why I'm arguing with a low silver on this. I got to gold 1 playing Master Yi last season, clearly I'm doing something right (even if not all right), while you're in silver, and blaming your teammates, thinking "oh if only I got a kill I'll carry" when you're 0-X.

Seth LightheartFeb 17, 20151 votes

First: Don't bash people because of their elo and second **never **say you are doing everything right on a champion, unless you are challenger you are doing something wrong. Up till that point we are all horrible at this game (including myself).

Also, you are putting way to much faith in kills. What about creep score and the champion you are ganking for? A prime example, I don't care if I am with a 0/6 top lane Nasus , if that guy has 300 stacks mid game he will be 20/6 very shortly, same for a good Renekton

BluePolarizerFeb 18, 20151 votes

I said I'm doing "something" right, (even if not all right), which means I admit that I'm terrible, but something I'm doing is working. I shouldn't have bashed him due to his elo but his comments were pretty wrong, and one thing that ticks me off is laners that blame the jungler, because I had to deal with that crap when I was back in silver and I just can't stand them.

Seth LightheartFeb 18, 20151 votes

Ah, when you said "(even if not all right)" I assumed you meant you were doing everything right, not "you are doing alright."

Also, don't make excuses. I've dealt with the same stuff you have (if not more). It doesn't stop at any elo.

Seth LightheartFeb 17, 20152 votes

Actually.... no. You want to trash the lanes that are loosing. Lets say a lane has a 1k gold lead, that is a nice lead but you can easily come back from that. As jungle if you destroy the loosing lane and turn that 1k gold into a 3k gold lead they will never coming back and all fights will be a 4v5.

This is not considering the mental effect it has from dying over and over.

Also, as jungle that is a lot of free gold you would be giving up.

AxlStreamFeb 18, 20151 votes

Hello, this is soloQ. You ain't going to carry me, I'll carry myself out thank you very much. NEVER trust your laners to do the work. I've seen to many kills just slip away at all elos because the jungler wanted to be a nice guy and feed it to their laner. Idea sounds good on paper right? Well WRONG. That guy you just gave 300g to might go afk, refuse to group, suddenly troll because reasons, etc.

As a jungler, I'll take EVERY kill I can get my hands on, tax your lane to tower, solo every dragon and maybe solo baron if it gets to that point. Junglers have work to do and digging you out of the hole you put yourself in is not one of em.

Seth LightheartFeb 17, 20151 votes

Because that isn't toxic.

BluePolarizerFeb 17, 20151 votes

if they're already 0-X then its better that the gold's used on you. A 0-5 Talon or Malzahar is just a glorified siege minion.

Seth LightheartFeb 17, 20151 votes

Dude, don't act like what you have been saying wasn't toxic.

BluePolarizerFeb 17, 20151 votes

I have strong feelings about solo laners that think they're the shit when they're 0-X and that they're entitled to farm. Farm is earned, not given, if they're clearing my jungle, that gives me the right to clear their lane.

Seth LightheartFeb 17, 20151 votes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

WoodakoodashoodaFeb 17, 20156 votes

I know the feeling. I once played a game in which I had my blue stolen from me by an ally as I was trying to get it. I asked them why they took it and they told me, "You don't need blue." Firstly, I did need blue. It wasn't as though I was playing a manaless jungler! Secondly, even if I was playing a manaless jungler, the cdr obtained from the blue buff as well as the additional XP and gold granted to me by taking down a large monster is more beneficial to me than it is to the other players on my team. If I'm on level with the rest of the team and my build is serving me well, I've no problem inviting an ally to take a buff to help us push lanes and win team fights.

Just recently, I started attacking Red as Rammus and our Riven happened by. I told them to take it after I brought it down to 500 health because, as Rammus, I better serve the team as a utility champion whereas Riven with Red would further dominate our opponents.

In summation, I agree. If you want to take a buff or a camp, ask first. A jungler who's preoccupied with another objective will most likely give permission. Most games, a jungler will invite a player to take a buff to better equip the team. But that doesn't give reason to just take whatever you want from the jungle whenever you want it.

Kitten of EvilFeb 18, 20151 votes

Junglers need all the jungle farm they can get. Even if you get all the buffs as they come up, you'll still be behind a couple levels and a bunch of gold (ganking takes away farming time, after all)

SerevasFeb 17, 20153 votes

I'll also add in that from my angle, when I'm your mid laner, and you haven't come into my lane to gank once when I've been pushed against my own turret the entire game and weren't making any plays anywhere else either when I was actually pushing out and getting ganked myself, you sacrifice your right to complain about me picking up jungle camps because you neglected your duties as a jungler. Not to mention that as a mid laner I should have 3x your farm if not more.

Just saying.

BluePolarizerFeb 17, 20151 votes

Not if you're playing a mid that falls off while the jungler is a carry jungler like Yi, Udyr or Kha'zix. And that farm is earned, not given.

SerevasFeb 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Not if you're playing a mid that falls off while the jungler is a carry jungler like Yi, Udyr or Kha'zix. And that farm is earned, not given.

And if I'm a normal person playing an actual carry mid laner like is the typical situation in 95% of games? Maybe a champion in a bad matchup because I got counter picked, but after a tiny bit of attention from my jungler, snowballs into a basically unstoppable monster? Talon Katarina Zed Malzahar ? I'll carry a hell of a lot harder than Udyr could hope to.

BluePolarizerFeb 17, 20151 votes

sorry Malzahar can't carry shit and if you've been dying already 0-5, then chances are you aren't gonna carry becuse its your skill thats a problem. even if you came back you'll have trash positioning and timing. Again, farm's earned, not given, smite OP kk?

the Anarchit3chtFeb 17, 20151 votes

Except I did gank. For every lane. I was there at every dragon(except the first one because I was dead after ganking for a laner that just sat there until they thought they could get a kill), I came in to help knock down towers. You're contradicting yourself, also. How can you be "pushed against your own turret" while also "pushing out?" Makes no sense my friend.

SerevasFeb 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=the Anarchit3cht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=toFqw5rI,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-02-17T20:01:03.320+0000)

Except I did gank. For every lane. I was there at every dragon(except the first one because I was dead after ganking for a laner that just sat there until they thought they could get a kill), I came in to help knock down towers. You're contradicting yourself, also. How can you be "pushed against your own turret" while also "pushing out?" Makes no sense my friend.

You realize that eventually your lane pushes back right? It's not difficult to manipulate minion waves or to start pushing out once the enemy mid laner feels they've gotten enough free farm. The enemy mid isn't going to sit in lane with zero items the entire game, they eventually back you know? To be pushing out and pushed against turret simultaneously is a paradox in itself, I'll be sure to spell out everything in immense detail in the future.

Now reading further comments, I can't even comprehend the situation you're putting up. If Yasuo fed that hard it'd be impossible for him to even have the items to achieve 100% crit, as it requires statikk shiv and Edit: infinity edge (typo to have put phantom dancer, my apologies.), paired with 10% worth of crit runes, or a trinity force instead of the runes, that's close to 10k on the second one.

Lastly, yes IF you gank and push the enemy out of lane, I will gladly freeze hard and absorb as much farm as possible, but that requires you to show up mid for me, which frankly now I'm appreciative of having junglers who didn't do that because I can force myself out of those bad spots without them, but boy did it create a lot of frustration to have junglers camping for a tank laner instead of their carry.

My experience with junglers has typically been something to the effect of "Gee, top lane tank is losing lane, and my mid lane assassin is as well because the jungler has been there every single level since he hit 2. So I'll go top lane and camp the tank because if the tank gets fed he'll be difficult to kill." Won't that mean your team will have no damage and your mid laner that when fed becomes a second jungler is no longer dealing damage let alone helping you snowball lanes? "Well yeah, but this tank though." Wouldn't it be more beneficial to have your mid and bot winning due to dragon and there being no point in fighting over top control until 20 min when Baron spawns? "But this tank though?"

Seth LightheartFeb 17, 20154 votes

As a jungle I have to say, sometimes you don't know what is exactly happening on the map, where I do ( since it is one of my jobs).

Sometimes I might not want to gank your lane because: getting you fed will not give me a win, we don't have enough CC to make the kill, they are a champ that will come back no matter what, there are better people to get fed, the enemy will blow me up, I will loose an objective, I don't have the CDs (at the moment), I don't have the items, I am too low on HP, I don't have enough mana, I see you don't have enough mana, I don't trust your plays.....

I could keep going, but there are A LOT of reasons why I might not gank your lane.

SerevasFeb 17, 20152 votes

I get that there's a lot of reasons to not gank at any given time, there are also several reason to gank a lane.

My issue is that when a kill is free, because they have no escape as I've already blown their flash, they are overextended, I tell you they haven't warded, and my heavy burst CDs are up it doesn't make sense to not stop by when you're not at risk of losing something. 6 minutes into the game, dragon is down, both your buffs have been taken and the other two lanes are hardly gankable.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if we get the kill or not as long as ultimates and summs aren't needlessly blown to not get the kill, I'll even let you have a couple of my minions just for stopping by to make them run away, because it gives me more farm that way. I just want a little room to breathe so I can get back to fair ground or ahead, because as long as my opponent doesn't vastly outclass my abilities, which if I belong in my division they shouldn't, I will get there as long as I don't go braindead in lane.

I also appreciate that your argument was presented in a reasonable way.

Seth LightheartFeb 17, 20152 votes

No problem, I always try to be reasonable.

And I can agree, some jungles see jungle as a safe place to farm too mid/late game so they never gank (Especially if your elo). However, what you are talking about is something VERY specific. What I recommend is just putting your enemy in a bad position and waiting. Polity asking your jungle helps too.

SerevasFeb 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Seth Lightheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=toFqw5rI,comment-id=0002000300000000,timestamp=2015-02-17T22:27:58.870+0000)

No problem, I always try to be reasonable.

And I can agree, some jungles see jungle as a safe place to farm too mid/late game so they never gank (Especially if your elo). However, what you are talking about is something VERY specific. What I recommend is just putting your enemy in a bad position and waiting. Polity asking your jungle helps too.

I get that completely and admittedly though I start out that way I get a bit overly aggressive with my gank requests at times, which I know and am working on. I think I just get a few too many of those farm until mid/late game junglers and it's damaged my patience. I get that it was a very specific example, but it's an example that happened to me 3-4 times in the last week, maybe not with that precise formula exactly, but certainly the major components. Like I said it's just something that's damaged my patience a bit, so I'm a bit quick to aggressive responses regarding my farming the jungler's jungle, in fact half the time the reason I'm farming jungle is to get him to try and come take my farm in mid lane so he at least shows up there and gives off some sort of faux presence.

Seth LightheartFeb 17, 20151 votes

To be honest? I don't care if you take my jungle camps. My only concern would possibly be how much damage you take doing it or if your tower takes damage.

The only time I might cry a bit if you took my camp would be the raptors, which I would still let you have... if I could smite them first while you are doing it.

GundayMondayFeb 18, 20151 votes

These downvotes for no reason. Dafuq is wrong with the forum?

Kitten of EvilFeb 18, 20151 votes

Thank you. I personally prefer mid-laning myself, but as someone who often fills (call me a Reluctant Jungler) there are a ton of reasons I might not want to gank. Any lane should be able to hold its own (play passive if you're behind). Jungle help in lane is great, but it's just that -- help. You are helping me win my lane, and we are both benefiting from the kills/assists/dead enemy/minion tax on your way out. If I'm doing fine in my lane, the help would be better used elsewhere. There are many factors a jungler has to consider because they are map pressure.

GundayMondayFeb 18, 20151 votes

Actually agree in that situation. But if that's happening, their shouldn't be any jungle to farm. What kind of junglers are you getting stuck with? o_O

SerevasFeb 18, 20151 votes

Hey Gunday,

Believe me I wish I had a way to classify them, my favorite was the wukong that literally farmed until the 30 minute mark and kept trying to surrender because he was last pick and got stuck with jungle when he wanted top, so he was just throwing a fit and the ganks were actually left up to me, which as Talon, fine I'll feed myself until gold is pouring out of my ears if I'm able, but I know the other lanes would have appreciated some attention while I had to run back to my own to protect my tower.

Putting it further into perspective that wukong finished with 340 cs.

RainbowgasmFeb 17, 20152 votes

Had an entire team get on my case because i was "afk farming"

Bottom lane was Alistar and Malphite, I didn't leave the lobby because I thought it would be a funny joke. Not only did they take the game seriously, they raged the entire time. I couldn't gank their lane because they were always low hp with a massive minion wave in front of their tower.
Middle lane was Yasuo, he pushed the whole time and died repeatedly. He got mad at me and started following me around in jungle. He tried to last hit my gromp and failed, but that was the final straw for me.

I muted the whole team and started doing my own thing, I ran into their jungle to take their stuff, and died a few times. Enemy team asked "what are you trying to do?" and I answered "I got matched with a team of cry babies".

I only did that because there wasn't a single person on that team who didn't deserve it. One good person would have changed my mind.

Adrian UmbraFeb 17, 20152 votes

This is a situation where what you did wasn't necessarily wrong, but also probably wasn't the best choice you could have made. Yes, you got matched with at least three assholes (I'm curious about your top laner, could you give more info?). Yes, you probably weren't going to win that game. But you also could have given advice to your teammates (Yasuo, please don't push mid without wards, you're an easy kill for the enemy jungle) or not gone and done so many things that got you killed by the enemy team later ("What are you trying to do?" implies to me that you weren't doing something smart). Practice playing from behind, pull off any plays you can and see if they throw it harder than you guys have.

"They deserved it" is NEVER an acceptable reason to be working against your team and could earn you a ban just as easily as the assholes you were playing with. I know how difficult it is to deal with people like this, but replying with bad behavior is just as bad as having started it and having been one of those players who's had to sit through spiraling rage wars, never want to do so again.

Seth LightheartFeb 17, 20151 votes

Meh, personally I don't care if they take my farm, they will take a bunch of damage if they try. If they can manage all the power to them, I'm busy killing.

(The only time I might try is if they take my raptors since i love that buff)

the Anarchit3chtFeb 17, 20151 votes

Not when they're a yasuo who gets that 100% crit and a like 2 second cooldown spell that can hit an entire camp + the stattik shiv and his dashes. the camp is all but dead before they cant hurt him back. come mid-late game i really don't care if they take my farm. what was annoying about him taking it still at that point was that he went from sniping a camp here and there(setting me behind) to taking half my jungle(preventing me from catching up).

Seth LightheartFeb 17, 20151 votes

If your Yasuo can get 100% crit, item 3087 , and it is still early game he can take everything he wants, you are clearly playing with G-d.

Read what I said again. I don't care if they try to take my farm, I am busy killing and taking objectives. It is a rare day my entire jungle is cleared.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 18, 20151 votes

After getting like 3+ kills on him, his lane went roaming unannounced so he got massive farm in combination with what he stole from my jungle. Also considering the fact that I'd be clearing a camp and he'd run through and take it right as I was killing it. I didn't always have smite up, and if I did, I wanted to save it for another a camp to get that buff as opposed to a vision ward in our jungle which I already kept warded.

Seth LightheartFeb 18, 20151 votes

If he was sniping your creeps. i.e. taking them as you were killing them that is just bad manners.

I don't know who you were playing as, but I will say it again. That Yasuo was G-d himself to get those items in that time. Count yourself lucky he did not turn you into a frog.

SerevasFeb 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=the Anarchit3cht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=toFqw5rI,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-18T04:54:30.110+0000)

After getting like 3+ kills on him, his lane went roaming unannounced so he got massive farm in combination with what he stole from my jungle. Also considering the fact that I'd be clearing a camp and he'd run through and take it right as I was killing it. I didn't always have smite up, and if I did, I wanted to save it for another a camp to get that buff as opposed to a vision ward in our jungle which I already kept warded.

Okay, yeah that's beyond BS, I'd be pissed if I were in your shoes as well. When I say taking camps, I don't mean I've roamed top, and bot and stolen their farm as well, I mean I have mid or maybe wolves to pick up, occasionally raptors and typically if I think my jungler will come by there before they respawn, I'll tell him I'm leaving the big one so he can have the buff and will want to clear it so it respawns. And I'll only go to that if the mid farm is towards their tower and I don't have enough ward coverage to safely grab it and it's pushing back to me anyway, or if the enemy mid is way ahead of me and will likely push me back out if I try to get it when not at my tower.

I ask about things as well, like if you're doing Gromp I'll ask if you're running for a bot gank, in which case if you are, I know that after finishing off gromp, going bot, and if the gank is unsuccessful you'll likely spend a total of 30-40 seconds doing that dance, in which case your wolves will be back up in about 10 seconds, meanwhile you can grab scuttle or raptors, and maybe consider ganking my lane while you're nearby eh?

Obviously like I said earlier on, there are those times where I utilize camp theft as a way to try and draw your attention to my lane, but that's typically the non communicating junglers that I have to do that to.

If you're doing the camp, I just leave, or I'll soak a touch of xp. If I'm really desperate I'll ask if I can pick up the small ones, because I know the 30 bonus gold you get from the main monster is typically >= the gold from the small guys. Sniping creeps out from underneath you is just so bm it's unbelievable. So on behalf of mid laners that aren't complete assholes I apologize for him.

SerevasFeb 17, 20151 votes

Ok I'm literally not saying I'm 0-7 come gank me, that would be completely idiotic, but If I'm down a single kill, and shoved under turret farming, I can't see a single reason not to try and reverse that lane. If we lose that game and I'm still low on deaths, and it was easily reversible, but you didn't bother to do anything to try, you're right I'm going to blame you, just as much as I'm going to blame myself for getting outplayed on that earlier death, or not having the correct wards up at the time, or being in a dumb spot.

If I'm down 3 or more kills inside of 10 minutes, please abandon me, because I'm probably tilted to be playing that terribly, and I will tell you that in game. Now if I'm playing the champions I typically do, it does take a single kill for me to snowball, even without it as long as some of the pressure is relieved I can farm and come back pretty easy.

While you're right that buffs 2 and 4 aren't that big of a deal, they do provide your split pushing power for when that's a necessary tactic, they're also kind of required in order to get to 3 and 5, and not to mention preventing the other team from picking up the first dragon is usually a pretty nice thing as well.

BluePolarizerFeb 18, 20151 votes

let me explain this, because maybe I put too many insults into my last post. That was my problem sorry.

here's how I view things:

Dragon is not like old dragon. Old dragon was equally worth when you were behind, as it was when you were ahead, since it gives flat gold. Indeed, since it gives flat gold, it is more important when behind, since giving flat gold decreases the percentage that the enemy team is up against your team.

Now, Dragon is a percent boost. It is worth less for teams that are losing, than it is for teams that are winning, since it boosts a percent of your damage. For teams that are losing, you want flat gold, so you can buy items. A 6% boost when their ADC is sitting on Pickaxe and 500 gold is not that big compared to if you took a tower and now your ADC has a BF sword, support has another cloth armor, closer to Mikhael's, etc. Remember that if your mid is behind, contesting dragon is not even a sure thing because by the time your mid is behind far enough (even 0-2 is substantial) then a teamfight at drag is a gamble.

Meanwhile, when their mid is at dragon, your mid takes 10 extra CS, your bot lane takes 10 extra CS, you kill enemy top laner and get their tower - you traded a 6% AD/AP buff (worth approximately 300 gold midgame to top/mid/jg/adc, not much worth for support, so 1200 gold team advantage) for 300 minion gold top/mid + 625 global turret gold + 300 kill gold + 150 assist gold -> this is 1375 team gold, approximatly even, with the difference now that top is threatened, your mid is catching up on EXP and their top laner is missing exp.

This trading of objectives is far more worth than trying to contest dragon, getting 3 for 1 or 2'ed, and maybe even losing dragon anyways, beacuse your mid was behind.

Mid is a hard lane to gank for especially early game. Top and bot are the easiest. That is because mid is the shortest lane, there's less room to maneuver, counteganks can happen from anywhere and its hard to dive too far since there's 2 turrets in a row at mid. Additionally, most mids have substantial range and CC, meaning that dives are extremely risky. It is better to force their mid to leave the safety of their lane and help top/bot, where they can be ambushed in river. If their mid is Zed or Fizz, it is a total waste of time to try to gank, and then you'll end up with a weak jungler and a weak mid. It doesn't matter if Katarina on paper carries harder than an Udyr, because Udyr with gold can 1v1 almost anyone, take towers in seconds and force 1v3's and still run away alive, while ganking for say Katarina might mean that Udyr is spending 30 seconds to a minute not farming, not ganking other lanes, not doing anything, other than waiting for a chance to go in, while Kat has zero CC and low damage since she's behind. Same with J4; a fed J4 that builds damage can take towers in seconds and escape anything more than a 1v1, but if he camps mid, he might be spending tons of time there that he's not farming, not ganking elsewhere and not taking towers. That means both mid and jg are weak, and while a 4v5 is winnable, a 3v5 isn't. Even more true for Yi, Warwick, Jax, etc.

SerevasFeb 18, 20151 votes

Yeah, that's a much better way of getting your point across to me. All I took from your last post was "Stfu low silver scrub get on my level drag is useless gg afk reported."

I was approaching the entire situation from my typical games, which are generally ahead, in the case I'm behind in kills, I'm still very well farmed, rivaling if not beating my opponent in CS somehow, I have no idea how since they got free waves to try and farm.

I'm not the type of mid laner with 5 deaths and 25 cs 8 minutes into the game yelling at my jungler and blaming him for never ganking. Yesterday for example in 3 games I had 3 deaths total, and those were all in the same game playing AD Ezreal mid. The deaths resulted from my lack of map awareness from being tired and no pings in bot lane for roaming Annie. Bot lane holds some of the blame sure, but that Sivir finished the game something like 4/17, and we carried her into a win. I shouldn't have expected much when they got double killed 3 minutes into the game trying to tower dive. It also helped that as soon as Annie showed up in my lane Sivir immediately apologized and took responsibility, despite the fact that I should have expected Annie to roam every single chance she got.

Additionally I've spent a fair amount of time jungling, so I have a lot of understanding of when a gank in a lane is typically "free" I'll quote it because no kill is truly ever completely free. So that's also a lot of where my frustration comes from as well. To me it makes a lot of sense for you to get me ahead, because I'll stuff my lane in the trash can and then roam so much I'm basically a second jungler, which will take a lot of pressure off of you to carry as hard as some junglers are accustomed to doing. For me, having the strength to be able to roam top and help our top laner while you're ganking bot lane just makes perfect sense to me in every game. It's obviously not possible in every game, and there are those games where I'm not going to be in position to do such, and I understand if you avoid ganking me when there's a Katarina or similar champion as my opponent, because I know she'll shunpo away if she has it up.

With jungle camp theft, I'm a courteous thief, I'll say thank you as I'm emptying your wallet, and I'll actually do something with it. I don't expect you to give me blue buff, because I'm not always a champion who needs it, but the CDR is always appreciated when you can spare it, and when I'm a champion with mana I love you forever because I can spam the crap out of my abilities with little recourse, but I never expect it because jungling on a lot of champions and ganking with relative regularity is extremely demanding on mana. When I jungle, I'll often pick up the second blue before giving it to my laner if I know they likely won't die without it, just because that extra mana helps me clear super fast and get ahead of the opposing jungler.

GundayMondayFeb 18, 20151 votes

That's lane speak for "Please tax me".

Drunk RummateFeb 18, 20151 votes

people get far too emotional about 'stealing' farm. theres a lot of things to consider and sometimes its a good thing for a laner to go take a camp or two when their wave is pushed. consider that they made your job a ton easier by shoving their wave and gaining map control.

RaxicorFeb 18, 20151 votes

They're also making less money without a jungle item lol. I don't mind if its for bot's level 2 or if someone's behind but I'd like it if people asked. Lol