Looks like Vayne won't be building Draktharr anymore.

Weathered·Nov 22, 2016·11 votes·1,604 views

https://i.gyazo.com/6379a6fa4530b26474efce181308a983.png

Her invis isn't long enough to trigger the passive on the PBE.

32 Comments

MarshbouyNov 22, 201617 votes

She wasn't building it in the first place...?

Jeddy017Nov 22, 20161 votes

Yeah, I haven't seen any Vaynes build it. Though, I haven't seen any Vaynes for a while either so that probably have something to do with it.

MarshbouyNov 22, 20161 votes

It was never good on her and it was never built.

Edge of DaybreakNov 22, 201610 votes

Draktharr wasn't relevant to what made her strong. I dont even think people build it outside of people who dont know it's pointless on her. What they needed to hit was her tumble crit doing an entire talon combo worth of damage in an auto attack.

AnonagonNov 22, 20167 votes

terrible nerfs

stealth and early tumble damage were not and never were problems

there was one change needed, and only one:

Tumble (Q) - Bonus damage no longer crits

baddaboom. balanced champion who isn't cancer to play against

Sightless66Nov 22, 20163 votes

That's a pretty huge nerf. It's bigger than any of the changes that actually got her to this point. I mean, I get that her Q crits are really, really annoying, but they're also really strong, and just cutting them entirely is a pretty huge deal.

She's been able to crit off of her Q for years. Not seeing any big reason to start cutting that out now.

stealth and early tumble damage were not and never were problems

Really? Cause, personally, I think the stealth that you can absolutely nothing about is a pretty big problem. Making it not last so long makes killing her way easier. Making her actually live up to that "shitty early game" seems like a really good idea too.

GeshultzNov 22, 20162 votes

Looks like vayne won't be dueling anything anymore. Looks like caitlyn is now a better duelist then vayne.

Sightless66Nov 22, 20161 votes

I think that may be a bit of an overreaction. Vayne's damage post-9 is untouched, and 0.5 seconds of stealth on a low-cd repositioning skill with good self-peel on the E is still really, really strong for dueling. It's still really good for that job, even if it is slightly weaker.

GeshultzNov 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think that may be a bit of an overreaction. Vayne's damage post-9 is untouched, and 0.5 seconds of stealth on a low-cd repositioning skill with good self-peel on the E is still really, really strong for dueling. It's still really good for that job, even if it is slightly weaker.

Dueling wise she is way weaker then before with her stealth duration essentially being cut in half. It basically means that her q duration is only enough time to auto nerfing its ability to repostion. Making her identity as a duelist next to not existent compared to other burst ADCs or any adc with a ton of safety such as caitlyn and ezreal. Overall dueling wise she is now just a shitter version of caitlyn in terms of self-peel and burst. With all the negatives of a shitty early game and a riskier late game with changes. Caitlyn is now just a strictly better version of vayne period.

AnonagonNov 22, 20165 votes

It would be a huge nerf, but it needs to be done. Tumble being able to crit warps the core of Vayne's character, which is and always has been insane target-neutral lategame DPS through Silver Bolts

On the topic of her stealth, it does make her hard to kill, but that's an intended strength, whereas 500% AD Burst on a single attack really isn't. If stealth is genuinely a problem (which I don't believe it is at the moment, I believe tumble crit is legitimately the only thing wrong with Vayne), then a better solution then halving its duration is making the stealth start at the end of Tumble, rather than at the beginning, so you can at least know what direction she moved in.

Making a champion extra shitty in the earlygame to justify being unreasonably strong later (and she is unreasonably strong, beyond simply "being a lategame champion") isn't a good way to go about things. If Veigar's ult instantly killed targets, that would be bullshit, even if you made all his other abilities and his base stats so abysmally bad that he was literally worthless without the ultimate. Unreasonable strength is unreasonable, no matter how weak a champion is before they get it.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 22, 20161 votes

If Veigar's ult instantly killed targets, that would be bullshit, even if you made all his other abilities and his base stats so abysmally bad that he was literally worthless without the ultimate.

Build a GA. Now it wouldn't even matter.

Sightless66Nov 22, 20162 votes

It would be a huge nerf, but it needs to be done.

Then we need to think about what compensation buffs she'll need. If the goal is to create a balanced character, removing crit alone is a terrible change.

If you're going to say that this change alone would result in a " balanced champion who isn't cancer to play against", then I have to call bullshit on the whole "balanced" part. What else are you willing to buff to actually reach that state?

it does make her hard to kill, but that's an intended strength,

It being an intended strength doesn't preclude it from being too strong. It was an appropriate strength when pink warding the stealth was an option. Without that option for counterplay, it's too much, and needs to be toned down.

then a better solution then halving its duration is making the stealth start at the end of Tumble, rather than at the beginning, so you can at least know what direction she moved in.

I think there's a very good reason none of the in-combat stealths use delays. Being unable to use the stealths creatively would make them feel really shitty to play with. Whenever we can reasonably accomplish a balance or design goal without introducing something unfun to use, we should.

The whole point of the stealth is making prediction of where she's going much more difficult, which is severely undercut if you advertise what direction she's going in. Reactivity is what the ability promises, and delays screw with that massively.

On top of that, it's just awkward to play with. It forces you to reposition with movement any time you use the Q in a teamfight if you need even the slightest bit of stealth. Kind of undercuts the stealth mechanic if you aren't actually getting any of it when going for high DPS.

Making a champion extra shitty in the earlygame

Extra shitty? Let's start with generic shitty. She's actually good early game right now. A shift to supports that heavily benefit her as well as nerfs to the early itemization of other carries has left her with an early game that is upper-tier. That's a problem for a late game carry. Taking her down a notch there is very called for.

to justify being unreasonably strong later

Hitting safety goes quite a distance to addressing this problem.

Tumble being able to crit warps the core of Vayne's character, which is and always has been insane target-neutral lategame DPS through Silver Bolts

One would argue that huge damage nerfs cut into Vayne's identity very heavily. Single target damage is her thing, not just Silver Bolts. Silver Bolts is one way that's achieved, but it's only part of the larger theme of single-target damage. Cutting her damage by this much screws

Or, are you suggesting that we buff Silver Bolts to make up for the damage she's losing here?

I'm perfectly happy seeing the Q lose the ability to crit, but I want to see the compensation buffs first so I know what I'm signing up for. I'm comfortable with the Q crit. It's been the way of things since Vayne came out. Not exactly eager to jump on changes without knowing what they're actually going to be.

AnonagonNov 22, 20162 votes

I don't believe Vayne would need all that much compensation for the loss of Tumble crits. The statistical evidence we have suggests that she is overpowered to a degree that a major nerf could be deserved without compensation. (53+% Winrate despite being the most picked ADC, despite being theoretically a high skill champion)

Now, it is entirely possible that Vayne would be a little too weak without Tumble crits. If she is, then it would be necessary to determine where she is weak. If she lacks damage, Silver Bolts or the AD steroid on her ult would be good choices. If DPS isn't a problem, but her inability to burst characters leaves her more vulnerable, then buffing Condemn's potency as a self peel might be an option, or perhaps giving back some AD ratio to the Q to make up for the loss of tumble crits.

I understand your comment about the stealth. I realize that it would be a shitty change, but I stand by the idea that her stealth in its current state is not the cause of any of her current problems. Without the ability to burst someone for 500% AD, having a full second of stealth becomes even more important to survive. If Tumble is still allowed to crit, then a reduction of stealth duration would be reasonable, but when it comes to which of those two I'd rather see go, its Tumble crits.

GeshultzNov 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't believe Vayne would need all that much compensation for the loss of Tumble crits. The statistical evidence we have suggests that she is overpowered to a degree that a major nerf could be deserved without compensation. (53+% Winrate despite being the most picked ADC, despite being theoretically a high skill champion)

Now, it is entirely possible that Vayne would be a little too weak without Tumble crits. If she is, then it would be necessary to determine where she is weak. If she lacks damage, Silver Bolts or the AD steroid on her ult would be good choices. If DPS isn't a problem, but her inability to burst characters leaves her more vulnerable, then buffing Condemn's potency as a self peel might be an option, or perhaps giving back some AD ratio to the Q to make up for the loss of tumble crits.

I understand your comment about the stealth. I realize that it would be a shitty change, but I stand by the idea that her stealth in its current state is not the cause of any of her current problems. Without the ability to burst someone for 500% AD, having a full second of stealth becomes even more important to survive. If Tumble is still allowed to crit, then a reduction of stealth duration would be reasonable, but when it comes to which of those two I'd rather see go, its Tumble crits.

http://champion.gg/champion/Vayne/ADC

She also has 2nd most experienced player base in the game of the ADC role.

AnonagonNov 22, 20162 votes

that doesn't negate her high winrate or pickrate, only the "high skill" part of the equation - and even then, the playerbase experience level doesn't really explain winrates at all, seeing as the two other highest experience ADCs both have 49% winrates

high pickrate champions should normally have sub-50% winrates when balanced because of increased exposure to counterpicks and people being experienced playing against them. If she was at 50 or 51%, you could maybe say "eh let the meta settle and then see if she needs nerfs", but at 53% there's no way to deny that she's a problem. Obviously Riot thinks so, since they're nerfing her. I just disagree with how they are choosing to do it.

ErockandrollNov 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That's a pretty huge nerf. It's bigger than any of the changes that actually got her to this point. I mean, I get that her Q crits are really, really annoying, but they're also really strong, and just cutting them entirely is a pretty huge deal.

She's been able to crit off of her Q for years. Not seeing any big reason to start cutting that out now.

Really? Cause, personally, I think the stealth that you can absolutely nothing about is a pretty big problem. Making it not last so long makes killing her way easier. Making her actually live up to that "shitty early game" seems like a really good idea too.

Riot still identifies Vayne as a Hyper carry, so naturally they will try and tone down in the early game.

As for the Q critting, I think Riot was like "Sorry that we gutted AS itemization, let's better synergize these ADC's with crit Itemization." Of coarse though, that opens up to new potential build options. If she can get the extra crit damage on her Q, would a Crit caster build with ER be effective? If so, how might that shift her power spike?

SasogwaNov 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

terrible nerfs

stealth and early tumble damage were not and never were problems

there was one change needed, and only one:

Tumble (Q) - Bonus damage no longer crits

baddaboom. balanced champion who isn't cancer to play against

It's true though ; it's ridiculous the bonus can crit, Vayne's tumble is like a way better Draven Q.

ViiLLAiNNov 22, 20161 votes

god damn that q got gutted

All SkillzzNov 22, 20167 votes

{quoted}

god damn that q got gutted

notice that the max rank wasnt effected so by time vayne has her shiv + ie she will prob have a maxed Q and nothing changes lol.

Brain Errör 404Nov 22, 20161 votes

Yeah, but it really fawks up her early game even more and lessens the transition to mid game. Tbh, the hit to the ulti time is a bit too big too, though. 0.5 seconds is barely enough time for her auto-attack to be reset early....

Yet again, riot hits the wrong spots on champs.

hhaavviikkNov 22, 20163 votes

good, she is a late game monster she isn't supposed to be strong early

Brain Errör 404Nov 22, 20161 votes

Yeah, I have no problem with the Q getting hit. It's like Riot is supporting the 1 hit Vayne build, but by taking away one of her core mechanics. I'd rather them hit the Q hard than the R, to be quite honest.

Sire HippingtonNov 22, 20162 votes

Exept that she really doesn't loose alot damage, and by the time she has ult, it nearly breaks even already....

Big LincolnNov 22, 20161 votes

i had more issue with the extra 70% AD ratio that could crit but i'll take it

Craft ZeppelinNov 22, 20161 votes

Well we had issues that assassins CANT target her in the first place. seems a nice start

CalabokNov 22, 20161 votes

Vanye nerfs are a good thing

KorilloNov 22, 20161 votes

Honestly it just looks like her early game was hurt, but she will still be the late game monster that is very difficult to deal with.

All SkillzzNov 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Honestly it just looks like her early game was hurt, but she will still be the late game monster that is very difficult to deal with.

her early early is weak basiclly pre 6. now by 9 you should have maxed Q and the Q nerfs do nothing to you at all. you wont have high crit or ie by lvl 9 unless you are insanely fed and i mean so fed that you can 1 vs 5. all that hurts her atm is the .5 off stealth but most vaynes would just use stealth to dodge a skillshot or like zed ult or something and then AA almost instantly after. not much will change from these she will be weaker pre 9 thats about it.

VoraciousXNov 22, 20161 votes

Honestly I think removing the Q crit would be a bad idea, it removes versatility in item builds, and we'll be back to everyone building bork and only attack speed while every attack speed item adds crit. If you really want to nerf some overbearing strengths, why not just let them nerf her ult bonus damage(or remove it) and let that be it. It shouldn't hurt any of her builds terribly and then her ult will be pure stealth/movespeed instead of insane extra burst on crit builds. If it turns out it's absolutely terrible, they can add like 10% or some small number of attack speed to compensate rather than flat AD, which will help both builds, or rather won't hurt them.

Wolfram OxfordNov 22, 20161 votes

She wasn't even building this shit, she was focusing on crit.

SnugglePuggle94Nov 22, 20161 votes

Well she shouldn't have been building Duskblade in the first place anyway, as it's not meant for her or any ADC for that matter. **It's meant for underperforming assassins. **

Brain Errör 404Nov 22, 20161 votes

But duskblade sucks on her...