Why is the AP jungle item better for jungle tanks than the Tank jungle item?

Durfain·Mar 24, 2016·3 votes·270 views

Buff Cinderhulk.

6 Comments

theonlyaustinMar 24, 20161 votes

Its not so much that Runic Echoes is "better" Junglers like Udyr, and Gragas who are really the ones I've seen get Runic Echoes over Cinderhulk and they have fantastic scaling tank stats and they have abilities that scale off of Ap as well as getting runic echoes over Cinderhulk allows you to purchase item 3068 which is a bit better than Cinderhulk in my opinion.

ErockandrollMar 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Its not so much that Runic Echoes is "better" Junglers like Udyr, and Gragas who are really the ones I've seen get Runic Echoes over Cinderhulk and they have fantastic scaling tank stats and they have abilities that scale off of Ap as well as getting runic echoes over Cinderhulk allows you to purchase which is a bit better than Cinderhulk in my opinion.

there's only 2 real questions you should be asking.

Does Runic echo give significantly more clear speed than Cinder Hulk? This is important because if Udyr or Gragas get more clear speed from Runic Echo, it will level them significantly faster.
How far does the benefits of an AP Bruiser, out weight the benefits of a Hyper tank? (this could be a state of the meta thing.) But it seems like the small damage is more impactful than the extra health.

answering these 2 questions will not only determine if Cinderhulk needs a buff, but in what direction. if 1 is true, then the farming passive should get buffed so that Tanky Junglers don't fall behind. (You would have to compare Echo to the other Jungle items though, if Echo is off the curve and not Cinderhulk)

If 2 is true, then Cinderhulk simply needs more health. Not sure what riot's goal with the scaling HP is, they nerfed the scaling component so that it wouldn't compete late game with devourer. (Confusing if Cinderhulk Junglers are suppose to be Hyper.) But if that was the case, simply give it more base HP.

theonlyaustinMar 24, 20161 votes

With games not traditionally going past the 30 minute mark in the state of this meta then it is better to get that ap that comes from runic echoes as well as the movement speed (which is key for udyr)

Duke AnaxMar 24, 20161 votes

In my eyes Cinderhulk is not actually a Tank item, it is a Fighter item that Tanks get because there is no Tank item.

HP stacking is something Fighters do, while Tanks usually prefer Resistances.

When they made Cinderhilk, they should have done it with the Armor from Sunfire, not the Health.

Alternatively they should make an Armor Jungle item that builds from Quill Coat and is based on Thornmail.

coeurloyalMar 24, 20161 votes

IMO it's not that tanks don't want to stack health; rather, it's because tanks tend to accrue HP naturally by picking up resistance items that already have HP baked in, so therefore there's no reason to pickup standalone HP items when resistances provide both extra padding and better ROI.

coeurloyalMar 24, 20161 votes

Picking Runic over Cinderhulk isn't an every-case scenario, but the main benefits for picking Echoes is the increased clear speed (especially because it comes in AoE flavor) and the bonus move speed, which has risen in importance due to the increased pace of games. Because 1) tank items can easily be picked up later without heavy tradeoffs and 2) the tank junglers that are picking Echoes tend to have a bit of AP scaling, Cinderhulk just doesn't have enough value added in those cases to make it a worthwhile pickup. That, and top lane tanks are becoming dominant again--which means having a tanky jungler isn't as important anymore.