When you upgrade to Zhonya's...

Durfain·Mar 14, 2016·248 votes·22,843 views

you're paying 1050 gold for 5 AP and the active. Meanwhile hexdrinker gets a useful passive right from the moment you buy it. Nope, Riot doesn't favour AD itemization in any way whatsoever.

381 Comments

RiotMeddlerMar 15, 2016155 votes

Yes, we think the active on Zhonya's is that powerful. Given the amount of use it gets and the effectiveness it shows when used that price point seems to be in the right ball park at the very least.

JefftiffyMar 15, 201691 votes

{quoted}

Yes, we think the active on Zhonya's is that powerful. Given the amount of use it gets and the effectiveness it shows when used that price point seems to be in the right ball park at the very least.

It doesn't really matter if the active worth 1k gold if Maw gets better stats and a better active combined with better components. The majority of the time Zhonya's will not save someone. Maw and hex both save lives quite frequently in comparison.

BârdMar 15, 201617 votes

Maw does not have an active effect.

AMYS GRAVEMar 15, 201624 votes

He clearly meant passive.

BârdMar 15, 201622 votes

I know.

I am the type of person who tilts the enemy team by correcting their spelling.

Force of habit.

AMYS GRAVEMar 15, 201614 votes

Like a true bard would.

Ariel the CruelMar 15, 201631 votes

A true Bard wouldn't even bother to talk. Just toot their horn, collect a few meeps, and be on their way.

Clearly, this Bard is an imposter.

Rain NTMar 15, 201622 votes

And Zhonya doesnt have a passive effect. Atleast Maw has two types of passive (the LS/SV and the lifeline). I dont even play AP mid often so im an outsider looking in and just from looking at the stats alone I find the item quite a bit cost inefficient when you can just buy something else. The only time Zhonya is good is when you have to use the active as a counter, NOT because youre facing an AD matchup. Might as well go raw stats than get some lackluster armor item with a decent passive.

I play a load of AD champions and I'm still saying that Zhonya needs a buff (like decrease the cost or something.. or even just give it a passive of some sort like based on how much physical damage you take, when you reach 10%HP give you a percentage of the damage you taken to cap as shield then has a cooldown before it can charge up again). As an item that is suppose to be a good pick into dealing against AD, it does a really poor job at it. Not to mention that armguard you had to stack up minions for the armor instead of giving raw straight up stats.

JefftiffyMar 15, 20167 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't really matter if the active worth 1k gold if Maw gets better stats and a better active combined with better components. The majority of the time Zhonya's will not save someone. Maw and hex both save lives quite frequently in comparison.

I forgot to mention the only time Zhonya's is better is when you have someone like or Swain ulting. Maybe decide how often Zhonya's is really good and when it isn't then you can buff it. IMO since Swain is supposed to be "removed from play" he should not have his ult continue ticking and draining mana and restoring hp. But Fiddlesticks is ok because you can prevent it unless its a ult flash combo even then he needs to be really ahead to make it do really well on an entire team because he has no AoE CC.

Krys StarMar 15, 201633 votes

Not to mention Hex/Maw activate at a certain health threshold, whereas Zhonya's is an active you'll miss out on if you're silenced/hard cc'd.

Fear PopoMar 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't really matter if the active worth 1k gold if Maw gets better stats and a better active combined with better components. The majority of the time Zhonya's will not save someone. Maw and hex both save lives quite frequently in comparison.

Maw doesn't have an active. That's part of the reason it's not worth as much...

Maximum MordeMar 15, 201614 votes

Passive > Active in practice. Being CCed doesn't stop you from using it, and there is no risk of fat fingerings the key.

blacknerdtakuMar 17, 20162 votes

Lets all be honest here, all Zhonyas does is give the enemy team 2 seconds to surround you and penetrate your bootyhole when it's over.

Unless youre Katarina, Swain, Heimerdinger, Morg, or Fiddlesticks, the item isnt good.

even accounting for teamfights that you win, it's strength then relies on your team being there to push the enemies off of you. If youre a backliner (immobile burst mage) and you use it then you lose time, and if you're being chased, unless you have 3 seconds left on a flash, youre boned. The only concivable time when it's good is if you run a champion who's sole purpose is to be in the middle of teamfights (or if you have to deal with a Zed, Karthus, or maybe Tryndamere ult)

TLDR the item costs an arm and a leg after it's components for 5 AP and an active thats useful in all of 5 situations.

HadesBladesMar 15, 201613 votes

Have you ever been in favor or thought that maybe a small shield would be decent when buying the component seekers? I mean you trade the shield for the zhonya's active but at least its something to deal with high burst champions like corki or zed? Maw and Steraks both shut down a ton of AP mid laners and if you build into a qss that just makes you that much stronger.

JackPine30Mar 15, 201612 votes

Its a real statement on the current state of balance of the game when Corki has to be listed alongside Zed as a burst champion.

Linna ExcelMar 15, 201613 votes

1050 GP combine cost for an item that has a 55% win rate on SR ranked. Seems like a good deal.

AMYS GRAVEMar 15, 201699 votes

Maw has a 58.5% winrate for an 850 gp combine cost.... what's your point?

SpoofghoulMar 15, 201655 votes

i think the the point is maw needs to cost 5000

RikariMar 15, 201610 votes

Maw only works against magic. Zhonyas works against everything conceivable. I think its good.

It Hertz When IPMar 15, 201638 votes

Maw lets you continue to move and fight, or run away. It also kicks in automatically.

Zhonya's freezes you in place so the enemy has time to catch up to you.

HvidskyggeMar 15, 201622 votes

and makes you stand in place for 2.5 seconds which means you can actually screw it up

Gnart Even CloseMar 15, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Yes, we think the active on Zhonya's is that powerful. Given the amount of use it gets and the effectiveness it shows when used that price point seems to be in the right ball park at the very least.

people downvote riot responses and then wonder why not a ton of rioters respond. especially when you brought up perfectly valid points. the only thing that could be improved for Zhonya's is the build path I guess

Chespin2013Mar 15, 201627 votes

Rioters tend to not respond to us if people are antagonizing them not downvoting them. I'm sure people at Riot care more about reaching to a agreement with the community because of the feedback they gave rather than being scared to interact with them because of worthless internet points

Nameless VoiceMar 15, 201616 votes

This. Huge amounts of downvotes clearly say "the community does not agree with this statement at all" - but no one is outright attacking Meddlar for what he said. They're just making it clear that they disagree.

Supreme Senpai69Mar 15, 201611 votes

Rioters don't reply for a few reasons. Mostly, rioter X can't talk about subject Y without stepping on rioter y's toes. Also, they don't all have authority to change things, and it might look bad if they say "Yea man Zhonya's SUCKS right now!" Could you imagine if they said that? The boards would be in a frenzy. "omg riot u said it sucks where is our buff pls?!" Then there's also the fact that whenever a rioter tries to post, they get flooded with non-related balance spam.

Being downvoted for saying something dumb applies to everybody, rioters included.

AMYS GRAVEMar 15, 20164 votes

I'd say he got downvoted because he missed the point. The OP was comparing Zhonya's vs. Maw and he completely failed to address the latter and only came in to say that everything is fine as is which completely dismisses the concerns brought up here.

1MazaMar 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'd say he got downvoted because he missed the point. The OP was comparing Zhonya's vs. Maw and he completely failed to address the latter and only came in to say that everything is fine as is which completely dismisses the concerns brought up here.

Because everything is fine as is. Some "arguments" (aka baseless QQ) don't dictate a proper counterargument, but just a "you're wrong. /thread"

AMYS GRAVEMar 15, 20164 votes

It doesn't matter if everything is fine or not. Voting isn't about agreeing with the post or disagreeing. If you don't address the previous post you're not contributing to the conversation and that merits downvoting.

Gnart Even CloseMar 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'd say he got downvoted because he missed the point. The OP was comparing Zhonya's vs. Maw and he completely failed to address the latter and only came in to say that everything is fine as is which completely dismisses the concerns brought up here.

yes he didn't acknowledge maw. but where is the ad zhonya's? you can't seriously say they are equal. they do entirely different things, with one being a complete invincibility, and the other making fighting more powerful. for that matter, why isn't there an ad banner of command? or why aren't there boots for armor pen? or why isn't there an ad rod of ages?

ap and ad are different. just deal with it. complain about zhonya's actual issue, which is that the build path is pretty bad. they need to offer a passive that maybe gives damage reduction for a while instead of invulnerability, while still being unable to take action. that would be a weaker version, so less of the cost was in the step to zhonya's. that would be a more valid complaint. just saying that ad is favored is ridiculous when champs like lux are running rampant

AMYS GRAVEMar 15, 20163 votes

AP and AD are different. Because AD want to do their DPS not being able to do anyting for 2.5 seconds is awful while for AP they are cooldown based so getting 2.5 seconds to do nothing doesn't really affect them in the same way because they weren't going to be able to do anything in that time anyway. That being said AP champions get one defensive option while AD get many more with smoother build paths. Both AD and AP champions deserve some form of reasonable defensive optoins.

shifting gears a bit...

just saying that ad is favored is ridiculous when champs like lux are running rampant

I mean, lux is too strong but id hardly say she's running rampant.

https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

Lux is 8th by winrate and above her we have 4 AD champs, janna support whose job it is to look after the AD champs, rammus whose job it is to counter AD champs, and Kayle who builds attack speed which is largely an AD item choice.

https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

She's coincidentally 8th by play rate being beaten by 4 ADCs, one AD jungler, and two supports one of which is thresh who is the closest thing we have to an AD support.

So then we have Lux who is getting nerfed on the PBE right now. AD champs are strong because their items are too strong, even when those items are built by non adc champs (shyvana udyr kayle lee etc...).

EDIT: and if you expand it to the top 15 you get 4 more AD champs and a tank.

https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.banRate&order=descend

also sorting by ban rate could be interesting but is confusing as champion.gg lists some champions two or three times because they fit into different roles. highest ban rates seem to belong to either tanks or ad champions.

Mister ModestyMar 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yes, we think the active on Zhonya's is that powerful. Given the amount of use it gets and the effectiveness it shows when used that price point seems to be in the right ball park at the very least.

Well said- considering it guarantees Katarina's Ultimate to go off without interruption- or any other OP Ultimate, where the only "heel" is that it can be interrupted. Fiddlesticks, Morgana, etc. The fact that they can safely use their Ultimates makes this item's active an overwhelming tool. If anything, more attention needs to be given to support items. The role of support is really unattractive- I think it shows when "Fill" practically means support. And I think the issue is items. There is a balancing issue, and I know Riot is aware and trying to balance the issues.

AbyssphereMar 15, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=Son of Kolrath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZKI4huWE,comment-id=0003000f,timestamp=2016-03-15T02:19:54.451+0000)

Well said- considering it guarantees Katarina's Ultimate to go off without interruption- or any other OP Ultimate, where the only "heel" is that it can be interrupted. Fiddlesticks, Morgana, etc. The fact that they can safely use their Ultimates makes this item's active an overwhelming tool. If anything, more attention needs to be given to support items. The role of support is really unattractive- I think it shows when "Fill" practically means support. And I think the issue is items. There is a balancing issue, and I know Riot is aware and trying to balance the issues.

What are you talking about? Zhonya's interrupts Kat ult instantly. If she could continue channeling through Hourglass she'd be retarded.

Mister ModestyMar 15, 20162 votes

I didn't know that. I don't play Katarina, I just recall someone in ARAM talking about Kat getting Zhonya's for her ultimate. But, I do know that Morgana can still channel her ult through Zhonya's.

AbyssphereMar 15, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Son of Kolrath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZKI4huWE,comment-id=0003000f00000000,timestamp=2016-03-15T05:19:56.445+0000)

I didn't know that. I don't play Katarina, I just recall someone in ARAM talking about Kat getting Zhonya's for her ultimate. But, I do know that Morgana can still channel her ult through Zhonya's.

Ultimates like Soul Shackles and Crowstorm aren't actually channels (outside of the pre-blink for Fidd). Once they activate, no amount of crowd control short of death will stop them. Death Lotus however will be interrupted by anything outside of slows and snares, including stasis.

LVL 5 POROMar 15, 201643 votes

If that's the case, I'd rather have Zhonya's removed entirely. And in its place, have a cheaper item that gives a shield.

Handin Out NapsMar 15, 20165 votes

Oh you would regret that so quickly.

LVL 5 POROMar 15, 201618 votes

Being able to cast spells and move, with resistances and a shield? I dont think I would miss Zhonya's at all.

AninLegions777Mar 15, 20161 votes

What if you are out of mana? What if you have ignite on you with 100 HP left? What if you have Zed's ult on you? Lool. You know nothing, ~~Jon Snow~~ L Ange Noir Von

WalkingInACircleMar 15, 20162 votes

How to know Zhonya's is crap: Fanatical Zed mains are defending its current state.

AninLegions777Mar 15, 20161 votes

Not fanatic. Just realistic. Do you even know the history of Maw? Did you know it only became relevant after its rework? Did you know that Zhonyas has been viable since the time of Zhonya's ring? No you didn't. It's current state is that it has 20 less AP, 5 less armor and costs 500 more. Boohoo that Zhonya's cost 250 more. Boohoo that Maw's shield is nothing to AD champs. Boohoo that Zhonyas can change the outcome of a teamfight. Boo-fcking-hoo. Anymore aimless claims?

NineTailedMysticMar 16, 20161 votes

Old Hexdrinker was akin to nerfed Zhonya's. If you're not confident against an AP laner as an AD you pick it up. You sacrificed stats for survivability, just like pre-nerf Seeker's.

AninLegions777Mar 16, 20162 votes

I used to pick Maw even though it wasn't strong. I would sacrifice stats early, yes, but it's passive made it worth. The fact remains that Zhonyas has the best active in the game. It changes the outcome of teamfights/duels. It mitigates bursts. It gives you time for your spells to get off CD even if for a bit. It's just too good. It deserved a nerf sooner or later. But I believe after the mage update, that mages will become the Graves of now.

NineTailedMysticMar 15, 201639 votes

No, no I wouldn't. Yea, Zhonya's is good, feels great to use it just right and completely shut out an engage, vital skill shot, anything of the sort. But when it's so agonizing to build (No Mana/5, no CDR, not enough Armor to really make a difference), especially when it often needs to be rushed, and feels bad to try and finish (ex: Dying after you have Seeker's, which doesn't help anymore, and being unable to afford an NLR meaning you have to walk back into lane 0% stronger while sitting on 700+ gold.) while having to sit on a 1050 combine cost for +5 AP and the active just to live?

If the Zhonya's active is that strong, REMOVE IT. Replace it with something far more healthy. I'd kill for an AP/Armor item with the Quicksilver effect, seeing as how I prefer reactive measures over preventative measures.

Pink Chocolade Mar 15, 20167 votes

Yes exactly !! You building Zhonya, you look at others they build hp, shield, mr already, and you stuck with fuckin zhonya that will give you nothing to be honest, except that passive. So Zhonya is basically Guardian Angel, but even worse, GA gives you at least some mr, lmao.

And you like fuck thiz zhonya Im going full AP, best defense is attack, and thats LoL in a nutshell right here.

AninLegions777Mar 15, 20163 votes

You have no idea what the removal of Zhonyas will mean. AP mages will become obsolete. Zed and Talon will rule mid. Fiora and Irelia will port to mid lane. It'll be a nightmare. Zhonyas is a turnoff for assassins. An AP version of QSS? Lool. Tell me how that saves you when Zed and Rammus dive you.

Zero Skill TankMar 15, 201617 votes

Tell me how that saves you when Zed and Rammus dive you.

Easily and effectively, I remove the taunt and death mark and waltz away, because my stats aren't shitty and I don't instadie after stasis. Tell me how Zhonya's safes me, I stasis for a bit and that I keep being pounded by Rammy and Zedorinho, because armor rushed without HP or shield to back it up is worthless.

the Anarchit3chtMar 15, 20161 votes

QSS wouldn't remove death mark. It would remove a slow or a taunt or something, but that's not going to help you much when Zed can just port on your face. Zhonyas helps you because its stop either 1.) Him from dealing damage to make his mark effective or 2.) The accumulated damage on his mark having an effect on you.

PyrokineticmageMar 15, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=the Anarchit3cht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZKI4huWE,comment-id=0003001000010001000200010000,timestamp=2016-03-15T17:01:34.576+0000)

QSS wouldn't remove death mark. It would remove a slow or a taunt or something, but that's not going to help you much when Zed can just port on your face. Zhonyas helps you because its stop either 1.) Him from dealing damage to make his mark effective or 2.) The accumulated damage on his mark having an effect on you.

QSS does removes death mark and is very cheap to make. Zhonya is super expensive, by the time you get Zhonya's Zed would have ulted you like 3 or 4 times. Chances are you already lost lane if going for Zhonya since mana issues will exist if you try to trade toe to toe with Zed.

QSS would be a faster countermeasure and more effective.

the Anarchit3chtMar 15, 20165 votes

Wow. Doesn't seem like it should, but I apologize for speaking without the proper information. The way I see Zhonyas VS QSS is this: A mage needs to lay out combos to survive. Zhonyas provides a time period for CDs to refresh so you can combo. A marskman needs to kite to stay alive, QSS lets you do just that by providing a move spd buff and cleanse effect. I don't actually agree with it but I think that was the thought process behind it.

NineTailedMysticMar 15, 20164 votes

2.5s can make a difference, but if you rush Zhonya's you won't have CDR, meaning you're gonna be waiting on 5-7s on your bread and butter which Zhonya's won't cover.