Boards›Gameplay

Why is Flash allowed to be a dominant, must have spell, but Smite isn't?

GhostOfShrimpmas··14 votes·13,281 views

All these red posts saying they'll carefully tune smite so it won't be a must-have, dominant pick in lane. Is there any particular reason Flash isn't treated the same?

48 Comments

RiotMeddler22 votes

We believe that Flash, even when on every champion, leads to some really cool plays, both offensively and defensively, with interesting variations in how its used based off the kit of the champion in question. Smite by contrast doesn't allow for such a wide variety of plays, being a comparatively narrow spell. It does generate some cool moments certainly, but those also become less interesting when you put multiple smites on a team (tracking the enemy's smite CD to do objectives becomes less realistic, killing/zoning the jungler away from dragon/baron isn't as useful etc).

GhostOfShrimpmas11 votes

Wasn't the main reason the smite changes were made in order to increase in-game options? Essentially, it lets a champion, even a laner, choose to give up some definite power from a spell like ignite or exhaust in exchange for flexible utility from any of the four smite upgrades? It's not necessarily flashy (DOH HO HO), but it gives more options in game, which I can't really see being a bad thing.

JevelFaithful1 votes

Wasn't the main reason the smite changes were made in order to increase in-game options? Essentially, it lets a champion, even a laner, choose to give up some definite power from a spell like ignite or exhaust in exchange for flexible utility from any of the four smite upgrades? It's not necessarily flashy (DOH HO HO), but it gives more options in game, which I can't really see being a bad thing.

Technically, there's a choice between "champions can trade power for smite" and "smite should become a must-have". Which is technically what the title is asking about : That smite could become a must have. Fun fact, you can already grab smite in lane. I took it sometimes and it has it's uses as lane control/push and objective control. Now with the jungle bufs,it has even more uses (as you pointed out) even without being a must have.

Edit : After re-reading, I have to admit I'm now a big of flash being that dominant. I'd think it might be more interesting as a stealth actually. If you want smite to be a musthave, you don't make sense. If you're asking why flash can't be shifted out of the Fkey, I'd agree with you.

ItemsGuy24 votes

As cool and, er, "flashy" as Flash-based plays can be, it seems that, more often or not, it exists as a crutch whose necessity is both a cause and effect of movement creep (which has long since been established as a problem). For every time it's used to blink through Vi's Q or land a super-clutch ultimate, there are 50 or so cases of it being used to circumvent strong positioning (get caught out? Just Flash over a wall! Your super powerful ult is gated by its lack of range or your lack of mobility? Flash + Tibbers, baby! Overextending in lane and the jungler circles around tribush to gank you? Overstayed your welcome under a turret and are about to die? About to eat an Ashe arrow from across the map? etc. etc. etc.).

While as early as a year ago, even designers such as Xelnath have noted that "Flash is too strong" but it can't simply be removed due to player backlash, and before that, even Zileas himself has pointed out that it's not fun "to spend 60 seconds setting up a gank, waiting for the lane to push, and initiating perfectly to have Flash nullify the whole thing"--especially considering that setting up and executing a gank takes much more time and effort than jumping in your seat a bit and slamming your finger down on the F key to blink back to safety.

While it's certainly fine to acknowledge that Flash has its moments (which, even then, are more spectacle than substance--again, compare setting up that gank to Flashing through a skillshot), I'm not sure if trying to justify its existence with the possibility of those plays is sending the best message, especially when those plays potentially nullify a bunch of other plays in the process. I don't expect Flash to be removed next patch or even during Season 5, but I really, really hope that it's a problem you guys are at least still trying to address.

shppy8 votes

well said, I was just about to write out a rant to this effect but you pretty much covered it.

Flash most of the time is nothing more than a crutch, and frankly it's dumbing down the skill of the playerbase by allowing them get out of situations they should be punished for getting themselves into (or alternatively allowing them to reap rewards they didn't deserve to acquire)... it's like letting children get F's in school without any kind of action being taken about it; it lowers standards and lets people get by on mediocrity or even failure in the short run while ignoring the issues it'll cause in the long run..

It'd be nice if you guys would at least do SOMETHING about Flash... no, it's absolutely not worth keeping it as-is just because it allows some 'cool plays' (especially when those 'cool plays' are generally just shallow but showy) when it's coming at such a degenerative cost to the health of the game. How about at least changing it to partially turn back mobility creep, by having it be disabled for ~5 seconds after using another moveblock ability and having other moveblock abilities be disabled for ~5 seconds after using Flash? It'd be an easy step in bringing back a little parity between the haves and the have-nots of mobility, and it'd make reaching/escaping mobile champions that little bit more rewarding and meaningful if they can't just flash after their innate dash(es) are used up.

CNY100002 votes

flash does need some change but I can't agree with the change u proposed. disable using flash and another flash-like ability continuously only hurts champions that have movementblock ability.

As results:

  1. flash is still a must have ability for champions who don't have innate "flash"
  2. this change hurts champions with innate "flash" too much. from now on, as long as an assassin uses his "flash" to assassinate someone, the assassinated one can simply avoid being killed simply by using flash because the assassin can't use his real flash to chase up due to the restriction you put. This change might completely kicks assassins out of the League. it hurts assassins too much without any good way to compensate because it's a rather extreme change on assassination strategy.
  3. personally I hate intentionally putting a rule just to counter a tactics in the game....

I would suggest simply buff other summoner spells a bit and nerf the range/CD of flash for a bit to make summoner 4 a little less must-have.

for the Riot's point that flash is creating cool plays......that's completely non-sense....

Auryiel1 votes

As cool and, er, "flashy" as Flash-based plays can be, it seems that, more often or not, it exists as a crutch whose necessity is both a cause and effect of movement creep (which has long since been established as a problem). For every time it's used to blink through Vi's Q or land a super-clutch ultimate, there are 50 or so cases of it being used to circumvent strong positioning (get caught out? Just Flash over a wall! Your super powerful ult is gated by its lack of range or your lack of mobility? Flash + Tibbers, baby! Overextending in lane and the jungler circles around tribush to gank you? Overstayed your welcome under a turret and are about to die? About to eat an Ashe arrow from across the map? etc. etc. etc.).

While as early as a year ago, even designers such as Xelnath have noted that "Flash is too strong" but it can't simply be removed due to player backlash, and before that, even Zileas himself has pointed out that it's not fun "to spend 60 seconds setting up a gank, waiting for the lane to push, and initiating perfectly to have Flash nullify the whole thing"--especially considering that setting up and executing a gank takes much more time and effort than jumping in your seat a bit and slamming your finger down on the F key to blink back to safety.

While it's certainly fine to acknowledge that Flash has its moments (which, even then, are more spectacle than substance--again, compare setting up that gank to Flashing through a skillshot), I'm not sure if trying to justify its existence with the possibility of those plays is sending the best message, especially when those plays potentially nullify a bunch of other plays in the process. I don't expect Flash to be removed next patch or even during Season 5, but I really, really hope that it's a problem you guys are at least still trying to address.

Honestly at this point the only reason Flash exists is because of Riot's hard on for mobility and their unwillingness to make champions pay in their power budget for mobility. Immobile champions NEED a mobility CD to survive. Vi having Flash helps her, yes, but without it she can still pull off those long range initiations. Annie without Flash is absolute garbage.

ItemsGuy3 votes

Flash is one of the greatest causes and effects of movecreep. Due to Flash's existence, mobility on mobile champions doesn't seem quite as powerful as it really is.

This needs to be addressed. Excusing Flash's existence does not count as addressing it, unfortunately.

Auryiel2 votes

Flash is one of the greatest causes and effects of movecreep. Due to Flash's existence, mobility on mobile champions doesn't seem quite as powerful as it really is.

This needs to be addressed. Excusing Flash's existence does not count as addressing it, unfortunately.

I never said that. I merely stated that immobile characters need Flash to be even remotely relevant in the current environment. If every single character with mobility is nerfed, then fine remove Flash. But I still think Flash does a lot more for immobile champions than it does for mobile ones, so as long as the latter are not deal with I don't think removing Flash is anything but stupid.

ItemsGuy1 votes

No, I said that--although I can see why it seems tangential.

But in regards to the "greatest causes end effects of movecreep", you're saying exactly what I'm saying (and I'm just adding a bit extra): in an ideal world, Flash wouldn't be necessary on immobile champions, even if there were as many (sometimes arbitrarily) mobile champions as there are now, because mobility would have proper trade-offs and immobile champions would have something to make up for their lack of mobility--whether that's super siege range like Vel'Koz or Xerath, huge melee threat and durability like Darius, etc. However, due to immobile champions not having the same power budget as mobile champions/mobile champion not having to pay as much for their mobility, Flash is an absolute essential, because like you said, it's worth a bit more on immobile champions. However, since Flash is taken on just about anyone (especially immobile champs) that power discrepancy and the sheer worth of mobility/self-displacement doesn't seem quite as high, and thus Flash doesn't seem like as much of a problem as it really is, and is a necessary evil at worst to many.

The course of action that has the most in mind for the game's health would be to handle it all in one fell swoop during a preseason, but this would require more than a year's worth of work in preparation beforehand and is much, much easier said than done.

Lord Frogberry2 votes

Well put, but then champions that have abilities that can cross walls would be incomprehensibly overpowered.

ItemsGuy3 votes

Which is a good point, actually, because it gives testament to how powerful moveblocks truly are. The answer here, is to adjust the power level of champions that do have this capability, to properly account for the power it gives them in-game. Maybe a mage or assassin who can jump over walls shouldn't nuke as hard as those who can't, or perhaps be a bit squishier, have higher cooldowns, etc.?

Paper12 votes

I don't know why I am replying to this honestly, because I can't really fault you. I guess I just disagree with some of your conclusions. The way I see it, for something like flash + tibbers, there is going to be a risk associated with it, that risk being missing one person and giving them the chance to jump on you and potentially killing you because of squishyness.

it's extremely annoying to get ganked, even when I've warded it out and I have spotted them and they sit forever in a bush nearby that's unwarded. It takes time and effort to properly judge whether the enemy jungler has actually left the lane or not. It doesn't take effort to press nothing while waiting for the opportune moment. The way I see it, flash punishes the jungler for doing "nothing". Consider this, why should I zone myself out of potential cs and exp, just because their jungler might be in that unwarded lane bush every time, which can't be warded because then I'd be in range for the catch?

What I don't like about flash is that it is countered by... well... flash, mostly every game on every champion. How do we fix that? I don't know...

ItemsGuy3 votes

Missing Flash + Tibbers isn't so much a risk/reward play as it is a "I somehow managed to miss an instant AoE stun/nuke with a small cast time" play. What would be a risk/reward play is an Annie flanking an enemy team in an attempt to blow her full combo on the enemy carry while her team initiates to buy her time and pull aggro. THAT is risk/reward because Annie is putting herself at risk, to potentially gain a reward whose value is near/equal to that risk. Messing up an instant moveblock isn't a risk, and having that instant moveblock mitigates a lot of risk (that flanking Annie can just Flash away if she screws up, or can Flash into ult range to blow her combo faster and give the enemy team less time to react).

One thing I'd suggest is having 3 wards on the map at all times. You'd tend to not have this problem nearly as much if you use more than your Trinket ward (even as a top-laner and mid-laner, this is something I haven't had much of a problem with since S3 back when I though vision was a coward's game). And even without Flash, there are many things you can do to counteract this problem--many of which require some sort of forethought, skill, or coordination, such as warding beforehand (seriously, this is the best advice I can give to any player, aside from understanding the value of cs), feinting to bait them out of whatever bush they're in, or calling on your own jungler for a countergank. All of these plays have some amount of depth to them, compared to simply not using Flash to all-in the enemy champion. This is a fairly good example of Flash's existence as a crutch as well, because what you are suggesting is "Why should I have to take all these preventative measures when it's already hard enough to Flash as soon as I see that jungler poke his head out of the bush?"

As I will say in a number of the responses to my original post, Flash is one of the greatest causes and effects of movecreep, and it puts designers in a difficult spot where mobile champions will become dominant if they remove it, and Flash will become even more dominant if mobility was cut down and properly accounted for in the power budgets of individual champions.

Thank you for replying, and please take my advice when it comes to warding! It'll save you a lot of frustration in the long run, and 75 gold is a lot less than it seems for the safety it provides.

Paper11 votes

I don't think you can summarise a play in one phrase like that, because good players put more thought and decision making into that play. You need to consider what position I have to be in in the first place, where do I flash to, what precise position do i ult, whats their likely position going to be when I finish the move, will my team be vulnerable to e.g. a counter flank e.t.c. e.t.c.. There is always going to be some risk taking all of these things into account, even if the standard play risk is considered to be smaller than the flank risk. Suppose if I was a really shit player who hit 25 percent of my skillshots, then that's something I seriously have to take into consideration when making the play. Annie may not be able to just flash away, because she has to consider which route is best to escape. Annie may not be able to just flash ult into range, because her team may not be able to follow up fast enough. Basically what I believe is, maybe flash removes a lot of the risk, but there is still enough risk there to force you to make good decisions.

Concerning your warding advice, again you need to consider whats going to be happening at that precise moment AND in the future. There is such a thing as inefficient warding. One example is that if you go ward river while you see the enemy jungler on the opposite side of the map, then you have wasted time on that ward. Another one is that if you place you maximum three wards, nobody has ganked and then you have to back once they expire, you give the opportunity to your opponent to take dragon without any of your team realising it. And even if i had placed three wards in the situation i was trying to describe, you cant light up every single bush. The best you can do is know that if you need to move towards an unwarded bush for whatever reason, there is a higher chance that someone is still there if you saw them go in. In fact, you know that they are definitely going to still be there for a mere eight seconds. I am glad I have flash as a summoner spell then because it counteracts this unhealthy playstyle of camping, and furthermore there is more depth to flash because I have to weigh up what spells are going to be fired at me in what direction, how much damage and how much cc for it to be worth putting flash on cooldown. Simply flashing out of any situation that seems bad without taking into account such factors is just bad play, and this is what I find confusing about how you are describing your problem.

To me, a large chunk of you argument boils down to "we have to change flash because too many people are just flashing to avoid any bad situation based on immediate gut reaction, and not enough people are using flash to make well thought out plays involving it", to which I disagree with, because I think changes should be made for the purpose of balancing the game for people who actually know how to play, who actually make a living off playing this game. As much as id like to see Jayce nerfed for instance, I don't expect people to put value on my opinion because I am not necessarily a great player. I am diamond V btw. There are a lot more players who have a better idea of where Jayce is at is what I'm trying to say, just like there are players better than me and you who have a better idea of where flash stands at the moment.

Rinky Dinky5 votes

So #flashylcsplays?

Khristophoros9 votes

We believe that Flash, even when on every champion, leads to some really cool plays, both offensively and defensively, with interesting variations in how its used based off the kit of the champion in question. Smite by contrast doesn't allow for such a wide variety of plays, being a comparatively narrow spell. It does generate some cool moments certainly, but those also become less interesting when you put multiple smites on a team (tracking the enemy's smite CD to do objectives becomes less realistic, killing/zoning the jungler away from dragon/baron isn't as useful etc).

You literally just made smite an interesting spell that people want to experiment with, because it now has several possible modifications.

Maybe you should follow suit with the other summoner spells instead of nerfing smite? They are just as narrow and boring as smite formerly was.

Omnipherious7 votes

I don't see how the current version of Smite doesn't allow for a variety of plays. Having a second Smite is more strategic than running double Exhaust.

  • Fight near red/blue? Smite for HP/Mana back. If you get item 3713, you can always recover 15% missing resources from monsters?
  • Enemy trying to pull monster into a brush? Use item 3713 to stun it and keep vision.
  • Running from an enemy while passing a monster camp? Attack the big one and Smite with item 3711 for the MS boost.
  • What if I want to play Talon and get item 3706 to make ganking/roaming easier with the targeted slow + true damage?
  • What if I want to play Tryndamere or MasterYi and get item 3715 to boost my Autos? If I want to transition to split-pushing lategame I can even Smite Krugs for +tower damage.
  • Tank vs AD and you're barely losing? Smite Gromp for poison-thornmail.
  • 1 minion off from levelling? Smite a small monster.

How are any of those less impactful than "That guy is near us, Exhaust him".

Having double Smite allows you to take dragon/baron with better execute power, is that not a team investment in Objective Control? How is purposely picking a Summoner Spell that makes you better contesting jungle and counter-jungling NOT strategic diversity?

Not only do I get to pick what extra utility my Smite has, I also have greater freedom when picking champions since the Smite items can have optimized stats. How is this less strategically diverse than picking Flash? What if I'm on Kassadin and I wanna run summoner 11 and summoner 12 ? What if I'm on Braum and I wanna run summoner 11 with summoner 3 or summoner 14 ?

You said:

"Flash, even when on every champion, leads to some really cool plays, both offensively and defensively, with interesting variations in how its used based off the kit of the champion in question."

Does the current version of Smite really not allow that when you consider the points above?

How can you guys honestly say something like, "The goal is to increase strategic diversity" and then say "This isn't the type of diversity we want". If that's the case, maybe you should have said from the beginning that "We don't want non-junglers getting summoner 11 or jungle-items ever".

The enemy team has double Smite so we can't do objectives easily or zone/control Baron.

Well no shit, they invested in jungle-control so you shouldn't be able to fight them easily on those fronts.

If you know your opponent is running a double Smite comp, you can run a fast push comp to punish; you could run an AoE/gank comp to fight them better when they contest.

That's all well and good but it's affecting Solo Queue. Double Smite is almost becoming a neccesity.

God forbid people get shoehorned into picking specific Summoners for roles. Supports should get Flash and either Exhaust or Ignite, AD should get Heal or Barrier and Flash, etc.

I am sorry if the phrasing is poor or seems hostile.

The main point is, this isn't like Double Targons or League of Cleavers. There are clear choices with clear trade-offs. Top lane match-ups with Smite/Flash versus TP/Flash result in different team strengths and optimal gameplay.

If the problem is balancing the numbers for jungle and lanes, then make it so that player-targeted Smites lose power (30/50%?) if not recently used (1 min - 1.30?) on a monster. There, unless a Smite-laner is investing time into laning and jungling/counter then they don't get full power. This will force Smite-laners to better use their windows of opportunity.

If the stats are too efficient then 1) nerf the enchant stats (cut in half) and 2) add a second enchantment level than can only be bought if/when the champion has acquire a large number of neutral monster kills (60/80?). There you go, junglers still get power+good buildpath since they will easily meet the jungle mob requirements while Smite-laners won't get free, optimal stats without screwing their own jungler over or being a counter-jungling god.

Ark Angel HFB3 votes

In other wards it messes with the meta so we can't have that.

Kobold4 votes

I'll just put what i'm doing this next year here

I'm hoping to promote a meta shift by way of reducing the reliance on flash and promoting more variety in Summoner spell selection.

To do this I am planning on creating a Prize pool of $1000 for NA LCS teams that are willing to compete in the LCS without anyone on their team taking flash. The prize pool I'm hoping will promote teams to try new strategies (even though the prize is small) to try to change up the way the game is played.

If I am allowed to do this (need an ok from Riot, currently asking @RiotMagus for more info) I would open up the pool so that others can put more money in the pool to try to get teams to change things up some more. If no team can achieve the requirements then the prize will be left for Worlds, if no team can still do it the prize will then transition to next years LCS.

Present requirement concept to get the prize money:

  1. No member of the team may take flashe during the match
  2. The team must win a minimum of 3 matches without having flash on the team
  3. If they compete in this I want them to after the event state their thoughts on the strategies that they came up with. (youtube video)
  4. In the event of a tie (3 wins each) the team with the most wins this way gets the prize money
  5. If there is still a tie the team with the most points gets the prize money
  6. If still a tie the teams can opt to either divide the prize money between the teams or Play matches against each other until there is a victor.

I'll also post this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GAiGkJSXrMBSp_Ig7dwbT1QyLAai2BoGI2uGRXVGUhM/edit?usp=sharing The worlds 2014 summoner spell usage per game and overall

Earl Eulrich2 votes

Could you imagine a featured game-mode that is practically SR, but without flash? just to see how it plays out...I wouldn´t be surprised if I would enjoy it more than the version with flash. It´s mostly used to disengage anyway, so it hurts making plays a lot more than it allows them to be made in my humble opinion.

MrSc0tty6 votes

We believe that Flash, even when on every champion, leads to some really cool plays, both offensively and defensively, with interesting variations in how its used based off the kit of the champion in question. Smite by contrast doesn't allow for such a wide variety of plays, being a comparatively narrow spell. It does generate some cool moments certainly, but those also become less interesting when you put multiple smites on a team (tracking the enemy's smite CD to do objectives becomes less realistic, killing/zoning the jungler away from dragon/baron isn't as useful etc).

You do realize that you guys JUST finished adding functionality to smite to make it usable as:

-Onhit damage amplifier like an autoattack based DFG -Instant slow -AOE minion stun nuke (useful for sieges as well as the kind of tricky plays I've been loving to pull off as Nautilus and Blitz snagging enemies through minions)

Smite now is what EVERY summoner spell should be, minus the glued-on stat sticks. Summoner spells shouldn't be static-ass choices you make by your role (siiiiigh I'm a support I better have exhaust, oh jungler I better have smite) they should be spells with a basic functionality you should be able to sacrifice a small amount of gold to enchant into something specialized that you want.

Let's take exhaust. Slow+damage reduction.

-maybe a high damage low defense jungler could enchant it to work on monsters with a greatly reduced CD, so he could use it to survive his first clear without needing to back before he can gank

-maybe a tower diving guy could enchant it to be usable on towers

-maybe it could be upgraded instead to a brief stun to counter high mobility champs

Right now, five flashes five smites is the single most tactically diverse team comp you can have in league. What the hell is that team going to pull on you? Their dragon threat and baron threat is huge. They can smite raptors and wolves to OWN the vision game. They can pick up trailblazers and delete whole minion waves to fast push. And you're just gonna nerf it away instead of realizing HOLY FUCK GUYS WE FOUND WHERE THE STRATEGIC DIVERSITY IS HIDING.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Smite now is what EVERY summoner spell should be, minus the glued-on stat sticks. Summoner spells shouldn't be static-ass choices you make by your role (siiiiigh I'm a support I better have exhaust, oh jungler I better have smite) they should be spells with a basic functionality you should be able to sacrifice a small amount of gold to enchant into something specialized that you want.

Let's take exhaust. Slow+damage reduction.

-maybe a high damage low defense jungler could enchant it to work on monsters with a greatly reduced CD, so he could use it to survive his first clear without needing to back before he can gank

-maybe a tower diving guy could enchant it to be usable on towers

-maybe it could be upgraded instead to a brief stun to counter high mobility champs

This is pretty interesting design space. Looking at item buys that enhance your summoner to do different stuff has cool potential.

The main question for me here is when it's appropriate for an item to enhance a summoner and when it's appropriate for the item to have a unique active instead. Thoughts?

Right now, five flashes five smites is the single most tactically diverse team comp you can have in league. What the hell is that team going to pull on you? Their dragon threat and baron threat is huge. They can smite raptors and wolves to OWN the vision game. They can pick up trailblazers and delete whole minion waves to fast push. And you're just gonna nerf it away instead of realizing HOLY FUCK GUYS WE FOUND WHERE THE STRATEGIC DIVERSITY IS HIDING.

Strategic diversity implies there being multiple reasonable choices. A game with 5 smites is not a healthy one. Ideally, smite is a summoner spell you take in order to trade laning power for objective control. We have to have tradeoffs for each choice or we don't get diversity.

My main problem with lane smite is that we will introduce rotational imbalance on the map due to buff positioning. Mid lane smite is pretty interesting as a roaming tool with chicken smite, and is maybe healthy. Worth further exploration.

MrSc0tty1 votes

Smite now is what EVERY summoner spell should be, minus the glued-on stat sticks. Summoner spells shouldn't be static-ass choices you make by your role (siiiiigh I'm a support I better have exhaust, oh jungler I better have smite) they should be spells with a basic functionality you should be able to sacrifice a small amount of gold to enchant into something specialized that you want.

Let's take exhaust. Slow+damage reduction.

-maybe a high damage low defense jungler could enchant it to work on monsters with a greatly reduced CD, so he could use it to survive his first clear without needing to back before he can gank

-maybe a tower diving guy could enchant it to be usable on towers

-maybe it could be upgraded instead to a brief stun to counter high mobility champs

This is pretty interesting design space. Looking at item buys that enhance your summoner to do different stuff has cool potential.

The main question for me here is when it's appropriate for an item to enhance a summoner and when it's appropriate for the item to have a unique active instead. Thoughts?

Right now, five flashes five smites is the single most tactically diverse team comp you can have in league. What the hell is that team going to pull on you? Their dragon threat and baron threat is huge. They can smite raptors and wolves to OWN the vision game. They can pick up trailblazers and delete whole minion waves to fast push. And you're just gonna nerf it away instead of realizing HOLY FUCK GUYS WE FOUND WHERE THE STRATEGIC DIVERSITY IS HIDING.

Strategic diversity implies there being multiple reasonable choices. A game with 5 smites is not a healthy one. Ideally, smite is a summoner spell you take in order to trade laning power for objective control. We have to have tradeoffs for each choice or we don't get diversity.

My main problem with lane smite is that we will introduce rotational imbalance on the map due to buff positioning. Mid lane smite is pretty interesting as a roaming tool with chicken smite, and is maybe healthy. Worth further exploration.

I'd go a step away from items actually. Imagine this: All summoner spells may be augmented for a small amount (300-400) gold. The final jungle items require a machete, an enchanted smite, and a third item. Completely divorce the upgrades from the stat-sticks that currently take up our inventory slots, players may now trade stats for tactical options in their summoners.

Step two would probably be a nerf to flash, but make it so the enchanted version retains the original functionality. Maybe Flash can't go through walls, but that is one of the available upgrades.

Then we'd see a lot more strategic diversity.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

I'd go a step away from items actually. Imagine this: All summoner spells may be augmented for a small amount (300-400) gold. The final jungle items require a machete, an enchanted smite, and a third item. Completely divorce the upgrades from the stat-sticks that currently take up our inventory slots, players may now trade stats for tactical options in their summoners.

Augmenting summoners like trinkets is interesting design space.

Step two would probably be a nerf to flash, but make it so the enchanted version retains the original functionality. Maybe Flash can't go through walls, but that is one of the available upgrades.

This is one of the best flash nerf ideas I've heard. It still has some problems, but flashing walls is niche enough that it's power you could consider gating.

Kobold1 votes

Smite now is what EVERY summoner spell should be, minus the glued-on stat sticks. Summoner spells shouldn't be static-ass choices you make by your role (siiiiigh I'm a support I better have exhaust, oh jungler I better have smite) they should be spells with a basic functionality you should be able to sacrifice a small amount of gold to enchant into something specialized that you want.

Let's take exhaust. Slow+damage reduction.

-maybe a high damage low defense jungler could enchant it to work on monsters with a greatly reduced CD, so he could use it to survive his first clear without needing to back before he can gank

-maybe a tower diving guy could enchant it to be usable on towers

-maybe it could be upgraded instead to a brief stun to counter high mobility champs

This is pretty interesting design space. Looking at item buys that enhance your summoner to do different stuff has cool potential.

The main question for me here is when it's appropriate for an item to enhance a summoner and when it's appropriate for the item to have a unique active instead. Thoughts?

Infinite Crisis has this in their champion based versions of Summoner Spells where they have different versions you can chose of the ability. It has some really cool implications that allow some really different plays based on how you want your comp to be. Take Consume (their version of smite)

  • Consume: Deal 75 (+10/level) True Damage to target enemy drone or creature and you are healed for 30 (+7.5/level). Environmental objects can also be targeted and are destroyed after healing you. 60s CD

  • Nightmare Batman's Consume: Nightmare Batman's Consume restores bonus Health. Deal 75 (+10/level) True Damage to target enemy drone or creature and you are healed for 50 (+7.5/level). Environmental objects can also be targeted and are destroyed after healing you. 60s CD

  • Mecha Superman's Consume Mecha Superman's Consume restores more Health based on your bonus health. Deal 75 (+10/level) True Damage to target enemy drone or creature and you are healed for 30 (+7.5/level). Environmental objects can also be targeted and are destroyed after healing you.

  • Atomic Green Lantern's Consume Atomic Green Lantern's Consume increases your Champions' Move Speed. Deal 75 (+10/level) True Damage to target enemy drone or creature and you are healed for 30 (+7.5/level) and gain 13% Move Speed for 4s. Environmental objects can also be targeted and are destroyed after healing you.

Each have their own bonus effects other than the base version.

Jeddy0175 votes

You might want to re-write that because it sounds like you're saying that you (Riot) like Flash due to the possibility of #awesomebigplays.That smite won't be as entertaining to watch.That what it sounds like to me.Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If this is correct,then I feel like NOT taking flash anymore on some roles.

OneSlickPhony3 votes

You might want to re-write that because it sounds like you're saying that you (Riot) like Flash due to the possibility of #awesomebigplays.That smite won't be as entertaining to watch.That what it sounds like to me.Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If this is correct,then I feel like NOT taking flash anymore on some roles.

They're not even trying to hide it, #LCSBigPlays are all that matters apparently.

Jeddy0171 votes

Well,that have to keep the game entertaining so they can sell tickets.How else will they make money?

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

Flash is too often used defensively to nullify good plays, not make them. If people are using flash defensively it really means that they need wards. By leaving flash as dominant as it is you are actively encouraging people to not bother warding because w/e i can flash out anyway. This is not strategic diversity, as there is almost no choice for one of your summoner spells.

Having multiple smites however really increases strategic diversity because one smite can be used on the new raptors to win the vision game around baron pit, while the other can be used to secure baron. It also means that killing their jungler doesn't imediatly mean free baron and teams will have to actually think about the risks of doing baron, if they need it, where other members of the enemy team are, etc...

I think many of us like the changes to smite, and while summoner spells are on the radar for riot flash could be reconsidered too because it is just hiding the underlying mobility creep that has become pervasive with new champions.

Adrenalotr1 votes

We believe that Flash, even when on every champion, leads to some really cool plays, both offensively and defensively, with interesting variations in how its used based off the kit of the champion in question. Smite by contrast doesn't allow for such a wide variety of plays, being a comparatively narrow spell.

In that case, why is Smite a Summoner Spell at all? There are no actives on the new jungle item. Consider that Smite was moved to Machete subsequent jungle items, and junglers could take two Spells instead.

You couldn't tell which of the enemy champs was the jungler, if any. Junglers could come into lane with Exhaust and Ignite for more kill potential. They could run Ghost to get into the lane faster while not sacrificing a slot for clutch escapes with Flash. A jungler can drop by to Heal a laner. They could Teleport after having been seen by an enemy ward and thus suddenly appear on the other side of the map, all without sacrificing the Flashy cool plays.

Does Smite need to be a Spell? Can't it be a jungle item active?

SmokingPuffin1 votes

In that case, why is Smite a Summoner Spell at all? There are no actives on the new jungle item. Consider that Smite was moved to Machete subsequent jungle items, and junglers could take two Spells instead.

Main problems to solve:

  1. Cost issues on Machete items. If you leave the cost as is, everyone buys a smite item. If you increase the cost enough to make it inefficient for laners, jungling just got pretty stupid.
  2. Three summoner spells is dangerous. One of the goals of season 5 is to reduce the influence of the jungler in the early game. Giving them an summoner works in the opposite direction.
  3. Jungler hiding. It is quite easy to pick a team with two or three viable jungling candidates and not show you where they will go. In and of itself, this isn't so bad, but it creates a strong incentive not to pick champions that are weak in the jungle and that's going to have a negative impact on lane diversity.
Lord Frogberry1 votes

So basically no jungling till level 10 and even then you're still screwed with no runes and masteries. Cool. And let's not forget that you destroyed most champions that were perfectly happy in the jungle. Wukong? Nope. Yasuo? Forget about it. Support jungles that were actually really good at ganking and could kind of survive early jungle? Not a chance. Jungle is no longer fun, and every single friend I have who mained jungle in S4 agrees.

Bears Dont Care5 votes

Flash is a 5 minute cooldown, mobility based ability. Smite is a 60 second cooldown ability that can reduce your target's damage and increase your own. Big difference.

Ali G4 votes

I agree there really shouldnt be a summoner that is taken almost literally 100% of the time

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

I agree. Flash has become too dominant. Flash is more versatile than any other spell - it can be used both offensively and defensively, keeping you on your enemies to do more damage or keep you out of their range to keep you from dieing. Flash is a life or death spell, smite was not and still is not.

Daedalus8714 votes

All these red posts saying they'll carefully tune smite so it won't be a must-have, dominant pick in lane. Is there any particular reason Flash isn't treated the same?

If smite becomes a must have in lane, then I think there is a problem with that as there already is a must have spell summoner 4 (except for about 10 champions).

If smite is a viable option in lane, then there is nothing wrong with that.

Hayaishi3 votes

everything you care about is plays.

yellowbricks3 votes

I'm glad they at least admit they have balancing double standards because big plays. It sure saves me the trouble of wanting to support a company who blatantly panders to those who watch the game rather than play it.

ItemsGuy3 votes

These risks you are talking about "What if I Flash to the wrong place? Where do I Flash to? etc." aren't risks, they're decisions. Also, pinning this on low player skill also isn't really helping--saying that Flash is a risk if you're bad at the game, means that every other play that doesn't involve Flash is much, much riskier (considering the mechanical necessity of flashing within range and nicking somebody with a fairly generous AoE that also stuns them, if we're still using the Annie example). If the person in this example is as bad an Annie player as you want them to be, then attempting to flank without Flash is a much, much riskier play, because she loses a lot of the surprise factor ("HEY GUYS I SUDDENLY WENT FROM THE EDGE OF YOUR SIGHT RANGE RIGHT INTO TIBBERS RANGE") that comes from using it as initiation, and almost all of the safety that would come from using it as a get-out-of-jail free card. I understand you find Flash useful, and I have no idea what your skill level is, but please understand that having the ability to instantly and freely displace yourself removes one hundred times the risk it adds into the game. Refer again to my quote from Zileas.

If the jungler is the only one ganking (ie. if their mid is losing horribly and is trapped in lane), then as soon as you see the enemy jungler on the opposite side of the map, start shoving and count to 30 in your head. Try to get your wave to the enemy tower to "reset" your push, and once that starts happening, run back and place your wards (only count to 15 if you're mid). The wave should start pushing to your tower at that point, so if you're good at freezing (keep minions slightly away from your tower range, the only damage you should be doing is last-hitting) you should have multiple layers of safety for a while. Resetting your lane is also good if you're out of wards, as you can typically recall and walk back to lane while the minions push back to your tower, and farm 'em up when you get there. Also, at least someone on your team (typically the jungler) should be warding dragon! It's pretty important. In regards to camping, it's not so much "unhealthy" as it is capitalizing on (generally) inexperienced players having poor map awareness or who generally make the same mistakes over and over again and don't adapt, so while it isn't necessarily fun to be on the receiving end of it, there are many ways to counteract it that actually make you better at the game from both a mechanical and strategic standpoint, rather than holding onto Flash and poofing away out of reflex once you see that Lee Sin poke his head out of the brush. Also, the things you have to weigh ("what's coming at me from where etc.") are things you'd have to weigh no matter what, even if you were walking towards your destination, and generally, "Not dying and having to wait for respawn while giving the enemy gold and losing map control" is always worth having to play a bit less recklessly for a few minutes. Just because you can Flash wrong doesn't make it some deep and complex mechanic that's good for the game (especially since it so often chokes out a wider variety of more interesting and complex plays). Again, refer to the Zileas quote.

That's not at all what I'm saying--I'm saying that the vast, vast majority of Flash's potential use cases (and almost the entirety of its most accessible use cases) is a response to "oops, I fucked up", whether that entails getting caught out, not being able to finish somebody off, staying under a tower for too long, not being able to position well for a dragon/Baron fight, and so on. Not only that, but the mere existence of Flash as a summoner spell available to anyone and everyone (past a certain summoner level, anyway) chokes out a lot of much more interesting plays (again, the Zileas quote). Also, I am not speaking to you as a player who knows nothing about the game, but as a student of game design partway through an MA. I spend a lot of time graphing this stuff out and measuring the pros and cons of every little gameplay decision that exists in the game (the whole "majority of Flash's potential use cases" isn't hyperbole or me pulling stuff out of a hat--I've spent weeks sitting down and charting this out), which is probably why I've been approached for a summer internship at Riot (among other reasons), after which, I will finish my MA and continue working there. I am not talking to you as a Silver II player who thinks that Flash is just lame and unfair and doesn't deserve to be in the game, but as a game designer who sees the effects that Flash has on the game, that it has had on the game for quite some time, and its role in the existence of movecreep and the recently developing knockup creep (since most of it is AoE and position-based, and Flash is a great way to counteract that). I am not saying that Flash isn't an awesome and really, really useful spell, I am saying that it is unhealthy for the game and for the playerbase (not allowing the players to suffer through their poor positioning/forethought/etc. because a get-out-of-jail-free card exists means that they will learn from those mistakes at a much slower rate, if at all--hence how there are Diamond V players that still have the problems typically signature of a Bronze V-Silver I player), and that it is part of a much larger problem that should be acknowledged and addressed over time.

These responses are getting a bit lengthy, and while I certainly appreciate the time and effort you've put into tossing words back and forth with me, I'm a bit of a busy guy so I'll have to end this line of conversation here! For funsies though, try playing a few consecutive games without Flash every now and then, and keep track of the times where you wish you had Flash. Write 'em down somewhere, and try to think about how you would've handled it without Flash. Even when you're playing with Flash again, you'll realize that it does have a cooldown, and your gameplay when it's down will surely be improved! Good luck rising out of Diamond V, mate, Plat's waitin' for ya.

TheFallenShaw2 votes

Smite is a must have spell for jugs, however, Shaco doesn't need flash ever

CreationFlaw1 votes

Flash isn't exactly a spell that can be fine tuned, though :/. It's literally just teleport x champion x distance on a five minute cooldown. Sure they could tweak the numbers for the distance, but that's pretty much all besides the cooldown.

GhostOfShrimpmas4 votes

Sure it can be. The cooldown and range can be changed, it can be made to not work for a couple seconds after taking damage, it could be made to not go over walls, or made to not go into places where you don't have vision, it could make you vulnerable or slow after using it...There's a lot of ways it could be tuned.

wolfax3 votes

Have you thought through pretty much everyone of these ideas?

Making you more vulnerable or slowed after using it negates the whole point of flash. The damage increase would make their flash an automatic trump to yours if you're trying to get away without them even trying. It's a massive buff to the enemy for using it.

It's already the longest CD summoner spell.

Turn it off after taking damage? Ok, so just remove it from 99% of its applications currently. It's only good for junglers flashing over to set up a gank or get a buff. Literally no one else would really want to use it.

No flashing where you don't have vision, again, guts any ability to use it as an escape. Everyone without their own dash just became a whole lot less safe and everyone with a built in dash just got near uncatchable unless you have one too. Same thing with removing the ability to go over walls.

GhostOfShrimpmas2 votes

Those were mostly just off the top of my head, to illustrate that there are ways it could be tuned, not necessarily that it be those ways. But yes, I do think that making it have a specific use for either engaging or escaping would be good. It doesn't NEED to be the best at offense and defense.

Rinky Dinky6 votes

Revive is the longest cd summoner spell buddy

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by GhostOfShrimpmas

Please remove Mark/Dash
Gameplay292 comments
226
votes
Every 3 hit proc has a visual stack indicator except for Brand's
Gameplay54 comments
113
votes
So is Annie the last great assassin?
Gameplay160 comments
112
votes
Will ability ratios ever be visible in the game?
Gameplay21 comments
68
votes
The River King needs a bonus in the river.
Gameplay27 comments
64
votes
Kindred wears his counterpart's mask
Story, Art, & Sound23 comments
46
votes