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Guys, you can't have both ways.

Bârd··20 votes·7,274 views

If Riot releases a champion full of skillshots, they are going to have a ton of damage to make up for that damage being unreliable. If Riot releases a champion with reasonable damage, that damage is going to have to be reliable to make up for its lacking quantity.

This isn't a super complicated concept, but the Boards can't wrap their heads around it.

If Riot releases a champion with high damage output, the boards start moaning about powercreep. If Riot releases a champion with literally anything that hits an enemy as a targeted spell, the boards have an aneurysm because "MUH COUTNERPLAY".

When it comes to Mobas, there are basically three design philosophies.

  1. Damage is relatively low, but reliable. As a result ,the game is more oriented towards tactics than mechanics (Dota 2, old League).
  2. Damage is high but unreliable. As a result, the game is heavily oriented towards flashy mechanical outplays (Current League).
  3. Damage is relatively low and unreliable. As a result, your game is too mechanically oriented for the Tactical players and isn't flashy enough for the mechanical players, so nobody plays it (Smite, Heroes of the Storm).

Yes, damage is out of control right now.

You know how you fix that? Here's a hint; it sure as hell isn't turning everything on Ryze's kit into a skillshot.

40 Comments

Jamaree11 votes

What, these boards have no idea what they are talking about 99% of the time? I would have never guessed.

The thigh guy10 votes

My issue comes when EVERY new champions has 8 different uses for each ability and 6 passives, then riot wonder why they are so out of control

Zeyphel6 votes

How do you classify a champion like Rengar who has tons of damage and is reliable?

Karunamon5 votes

{quoted}

How do you clasify a champion like Rengar who has tons of damage and is reliable?

OP didn't think about that in his passive-aggressive sniping at that one guy known as the boards.

Bârd1 votes

A mistake that it's too late for the devs to go back on.

Xintium1 votes

{quoted}

A mistake that it's too late for the devs to go back on.

What about Leblanc ? Or, using a modern example, Qiyana ?

Bârd2 votes

Ditto.

Leblanc is a terrible design through and through.

Qiyana is a decent design, but absolutely should not be balanced as an assassin. She should be the next Irelia, not the next Talon.

Xintium2 votes

{quoted}

Ditto. Leblanc is a terrible design through and through. Qiyana is a decent design, but absolutely should not be balanced as an assassin. She should be the next Irelia, not the next Talon.

So, apparently, we can't go back to your point one (low but reliable damage, with the tweaking that "reliable" doesn't mean point-and-click but actually requires a modicum of skill, and "low" is more like "medium-low" or "conditionally medium-high"), but since you admit the existence of a whole set of champions with high damage and high reliability, we should just ... what? Keep it as it is, without giving voice to the blatantly obvious and obnoxious "damage meta" ?

We can't have both ways, can we at least have the decent one and scrap the current one? Apparently, the answer is no. If so, the topic should be titled "Guys, you can't have it any way".

Bârd3 votes
  1. Yes, we can go back to "low but reliable damage", it's just that you're gonna piss off the Rengar and LB players to the point they quit (oh no... don't go...)
  2. No, point and click is definitely the way to go if you're going to have low damage. If you make everything a low damage skillshot, the result is Smite. Point and Click does not equate to no skill, it simply means that mechanical skill isn't the kind of skill that matters most. If you have a game with a handful of targeted disables and an ocean of powerful skillshot nukes, of course they're going to be broken, you've balanced the game around dodging everything. You simply need to balance around the idea of "Ok I'm going to get stunned here, what do I do afterwards?" instead of "Ok I got stunned now I'm just dead".
  3. Yes, they exist. You can simply rebalance them around a longer damage window. Again, it's going to piss off Rengar and LB mains, but fuck em.
  4. Under no circumstances should the game remain as-is.
LordGeovanni1 votes

Point and click has its own set of problems that skill shots dont have.

  1. being that they are usually low ranged spells so they only do damage within a set area skill shots have the utility of being able to damage from much father away this is what they get for being skill shots it shouldnt be more damage (although they get that too) Skill shots are usually aoe also.
  2. Point and click spells need to be accurately pressed on the right target in large fights with multiple moving parts and some champions so large they cover other champions who are downright puny its really there is a hard mechaical skill to point and click spells especially when they are rewarded with less damage and effects than free range damage spells. while skill shot champions can move your mouse in between your champion and the other champion and cast allowing for quicker casting at any point or you can point and click just like a point and click spell and get a gaurenteed hit outside of movement boosts that dodge the spells just like point and click spells
Bârd1 votes

Yeah, those are downsides... for the player.

If you're a game designer trying to lower the over-all power level in your game, those are some good things.

Xintium1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Yes, we can go back to "low but reliable damage", it's just that you're gonna piss off the Rengar and LB players to the point they quit (oh no... don't go...)
  2. No, point and click is definitely the way to go if you're going to have low damage. If you make everything a low damage skillshot, the result is Smite. Point and Click does not equate to no skill, it simply means that mechanical skill isn't the kind of skill that matters most. If you have a game with a handful of targeted disables and an ocean of powerful skillshot nukes, of course they're going to be broken, you've balanced the game around dodging everything. You simply need to balance around the idea of "Ok I'm going to get stunned here, what do I do afterwards?" instead of "Ok I got stunned now I'm just dead".
  3. Yes, they exist. You can simply rebalance them around a longer damage window. Again, it's going to piss off Rengar and LB mains, but fuck em.
  4. Under no circumstances should the game remain as-is.
  1. I am (to be precise, was) a Leblanc player and you are not gonna piss me off. LB has other problems anyway. Believe it or not, a balanced game is better for everyone, including the ones whose champions get nerfed (which may seem like a paradox, but it is not), though a vocal minority may whine for some period of time.
  2. Simply put, you are wrong. Skillshots can be reliable too. The long answer is in my first (chronological order) post in this topic, which you should read quite carefully. The result isn't Smite because in Smite literally everything, including AAs, are skillshots, which will never happen in League.
  3. No further comment is needed here.
  4. Agreed.
Bârd1 votes

Skillshots can be reliable, like Spirit Fire, but at that point it's almost purely an upside, since you're getting the versatility of a skillshot without the unreliability.

As a result, their impact needs to be relatively low.

What I'm talking about with "Smite Gameplay" isn't how literally everything is a skillshot, though I'm not a fan of that. Its that there are a ton of low impact skillshots, meaning it doesn't really feel rewarding.

Xintium1 votes

{quoted}

Skillshots can be reliable, like Spirit Fire, but at that point it's almost purely an upside, since you're getting the versatility of a skillshot without the unreliability.

Nasus W is AoE, good range and basically undodgeable. That's an extreme.

Now, think of a line skillshot which gets blocked by the first enemy champion. The skillshot may be relatively fast, which will make it more reliable, and do consistent damage, feeling rewarding. You can tune: damage to champions, CD, range, width of the skillshot, speed, damage to minions (if any), damage penalty if it goes through minions (if any), and a myriad of other variables to make it rewarding.

Versatility is a parameter of a skillshot, not a given.

As a result, their impact needs to be relatively low.

What I'm talking about with "Smite Gameplay" isn't how literally everything is a skillshot, though I'm not a fan of that. Its that there are a ton of low impact skillshots, meaning it doesn't really feel rewarding.

We don't have that and we don't need to convert into that.

The Last Padawan5 votes

Except... current league got high AND reliable damage (yasuo,zed,kaisa...). Your comparison is flawed in so many levels.

Pika Fox2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Last Padawan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tU9grzBH,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-10-02T14:05:22.394+0000)

Except... current league got high AND reliable damage (yasuo,zed,kaisa...). Your comparison is flawed in so many levels.

All of zeds damage is skillshot based

Yasuo is melee

Kaisa is, again, another auto attacker, but even then her main damage ability is a pseudo skillshot as it is divided by targets in range

Oh, and her solo engage tool is a skillshot.

The Last Padawan5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tU9grzBH,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-10-02T14:09:21.158+0000)

All of zeds damage is skillshot based

Yasuo is melee

Kaisa is, again, another auto attacker, but even then her main damage ability is a pseudo skillshot as it is divided by targets in range

Oh, and her solo engage tool is a skillshot.

1- Zed’s skillshots mean crap since he just jumps on you and lowekey smash his keyboard braindead style 2-Yasuo being melee makes it right? Not like he got infinite dash and infinite block WW or anything like that, oh wait... 3- Since when kaisa’s passive and Q are skillshots??? She clearly doesn’t need her Q to burst you down anyways. Any kaisa player with at least two brain cells will save the Q for when it doesn’t split to more than 2 players. also, if you are stacking on top of each other you are doing it so wrong...

Oh man, she needs to click to insta dash somewhere? Is Twisted fate ult also considered skillshot now?

You don’t seem like you know the game AT ALL. Lmao...

Pika Fox2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Last Padawan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tU9grzBH,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2019-10-02T15:13:48.968+0000)

1- Zed’s skillshots mean crap since he just jumps on you and lowekey smash his keyboard braindead style 2-Yasuo being melee makes it right? Not like he got infinite dash and infinite block WW or anything like that, oh wait... 3- Since when kaisa’s passive and Q are skillshots??? She clearly doesn’t need her Q to burst you down anyways. Any kaisa player with at least two brain cells will save the Q for when it doesn’t split to more than 2 players. also, if you are stacking on top of each other you are doing it so wrong...

Oh man, she needs to click to insta dash somewhere? Is Twisted fate ult also considered skillshot now?

You don’t seem like you know the game AT ALL. Lmao...

Theyre still skillshots and can be avoided. You have flash, dont you?

Hes still melee, and his mobility is entirely conditional and predictable. Windwall is also easy to deal with... Dont dump everything at once, bait it out, then all in. Its not hard to easily win lux vs yasuo.

Again, shes auto attack based, and her Q is based on targets in range, meaning More targets less damage. Youre complaining about a late game, short ranged, auto attack based champion that is heavily gold reliant. (Also her ult requires her passive on a target to be used, so shes either already in range, another person on her team is, or you got hit by a slow moving skillshot. Her only engage is a slow skillshot.)

You people complain about the SIMPLEST of mechanics. Learn to play the damn game before complaining about shit.

LightswornLance1 votes

Your right about zed and yasuo because zed cant get away with no hitting most of his q's unless hes fed, and yasuo has to risk his life to get close enough to do damage. Kaisa though is straight op atm, mostly for the fact that she can build AP and go zhonyas which gives her an edge over every ADC in the game. The fact that shes gold reliant comes with the territory since shes an adc. She has pretty good self peal with her ult allowing her to position wherever she wants in a team fight and invisibility + move speed steriod.

Pika Fox1 votes

{quoted}

Your right about zed and yasuo because zed cant get away with no hitting most of his q's unless hes fed, and yasuo has to risk his life to get close enough to do damage. Kaisa though is straight op atm, mostly for the fact that she can build AP and go zhonyas which gives her an edge over every ADC in the game. The fact that shes gold reliant comes with the territory since shes an adc. She has pretty good self peal with her ult allowing her to position wherever she wants in a team fight and invisibility + move speed steriod.

Shes still a short ranged adc and her AP build gives her less sustain and less damage to non tanks. Zonyas can definitely be useful, but it does restrict your options for lifesteal unless you go hybrid, and then that further reduces her defensive options, as theyre tied mostly to crit.

Bârd1 votes
  1. Yes, and with mobility being the way it is you can get out of the way. In a teamfight, a Zed pressing R on somebody only for the target to flash away with perfect timing means Zed doesn't get to hit them.
  2. Lot to unpack here. First off, Yasuo doesn't even belong in the same category as Zed. Before he ults, he does damage, sure, but not a ton. After he ults, he starts instagibbing people, but that's still several seconds into a fight, so it's more along the lines of a Darius killing everybody after he gets his first kill. Also... no. He neither has infinite dashes nor infinite blocks.
  3. He means you can mitigate her Q by grouping together.
Karunamon4 votes

This isn't a super complicated concept, but the Boards can't wrap their heads around it.

You know what's not a super complicated concept? "The Boards" isn't one person and it isn't fair to generalize.

Kai Guy3 votes

A quality post? Unexpected. To bad your critical of others opinions and will be buried in downvotes. I enjoyed the read.

PhearBunny3 votes

there are just too many overloaded kits, that arent tuned properly for how mechanically superior they are, Example: Kaisa, Pyke, Yasuo, Irelia and so on.

is a skill ceiling really a justifiable reason to be unfairly balanced?(Not that Kaisa even requires skill)

DalekZec2 votes

I've seen a fair of poor points when it comes to champ designs, but this shit is obvious enough to say the least.

I often consider that maybe the bias is too much when it comes to design philosophy of champs.

But there are flaws on designs where champs have mobility along with high damage.

Zullar2 votes

Right now a champion with skill shots does like 150% of a squishies HP in a combo. And a champion with no skillshots will do like 120% of a squishies HP in a combo.

Why can't these numbers **both ** be reduced? (While keeping the the ratio can remain the same)

ZackTheWaffleMan2 votes

i mean, a champion can have low AND unreliable damage, but then they need tankiness/sustain/utility

Xintium2 votes

This thread raises some interesting points and, at first glance, may appear as a "quality" post. Let's see if it holds up to a reality check (spoiler: it doesn't).

When it comes to Mobas, there are basically three design philosophies.

  1. Damage is relatively low, but reliable. As a result ,the game is more oriented towards tactics than mechanics (Dota 2, old League).
  2. Damage is high but unreliable. As a result, the game is heavily oriented towards flashy mechanical outplays (Current League).
  3. Damage is relatively low and unreliable. As a result, your game is too mechanically oriented for the Tactical players and isn't flashy enough for the mechanical players, so nobody plays it (Smite, Heroes of the Storm).

You are missing: 4. Damage is high and reliable (also current League).

But before that, we need to take a step back and realize that:

  1. Damage is not a binary variable (high/low). Damage is a number, so it can vary from 0 to relatively high values. It is often useful to "normalize" (sorry for the technical term) damage between 0 and 1 (with 0 meaning literally zero, while 1 basically means either the theoretical max damage, which may be infinite, or some other very high, but finite, number, which is typically more useful when you have infinitely-scaling champions).
  2. Reliability is not a binary variable. Reliability is actually (surprise?) another number, which varies between 0 and 1. Some of you may have guessed (correctly) that reliability is a probability (that depends on several factors), but let's keep this simple for the non-mathematical adepts.

Thus, when designing a champion, instead of having only the 3/4 possibilities listed above, the two "degrees of freedom" (damage, reliability), or better, (normalized dmg, reliability), generate all the couples between (0,0) and (1,1), i.e., the unit square. Any point in the unit square gives you a potential champion. In principle, all combinations are possible. The three design philosophies listed above are just an arbitrary simplification (made by the original poster), but in reality there is no such restriction. So, you can have, say, moderate damage with moderate reliability (which doesn't fit in any category listed by the original poster).

{quoted}

If Riot releases a champion full of skillshots, they are going to have a ton of damage to make up for that damage being unreliable.

Not necessarily.

Yes, damage is out of control right now.

Agreed.

Abibyama II1 votes

My favorite is when they release a champ with a single dash or even a move speed boost they yell mobility creep

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

I'm not certain but didn't the devs just make some really questionable choices that lead to the games being phased out? For me on heroes of the storm it was the change to stealth champs. Nothing really damage related. I'm not sure what happened to smite but isn't it well past the 5 or so years that the mobas tend to last for?

Sire Hippington1 votes

There's another condradiction for boards related to counterplay:

'hard CC shouldn't be point n click' 'fuck mobillity creep'

People hate to play against high mobillity, yet they also want to see point n click CC gone, while point n click, especially CC, is the natural counter to high mobillity....

As for your 3. I really don't feel like HotS fits there, it's not very mechanically intensive, and the few champs that are have accordingly high damage like KT. The issue of HotS is that blizzard no longer supports the E-sports scene which sucks for competetive teams, while it's shared xp no gold/cs thing means a sinlge player has very little agency and you can't really be the standout player that carries, which for most solo players is a horrible thing. So all that remain are mostly casual teamplayers.

Can't say much about smite cause i hardly played it. However, the reason why i hardly played it isn't damage por reliabillity related, but because it's 3ed person rather than isometric...

AccurateYeet1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tU9grzBH,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-10-02T11:14:27.471+0000)

There's another condradiction for boards related to counterplay:

'hard CC shouldn't be point n click' 'fuck mobillity creep'

People hate to play against high mobillity, yet they also want to see point n click CC gone, while point n click, especially CC, is the natural counter to high mobillity....

As for your 3. I really don't feel like HotS fits there, it's not very mechanically intensive, and the few champs that are have accordingly high damage like KT. The issue of HotS is that blizzard no longer supports the E-sports scene which sucks for competetive teams, while it's shared xp no gold/cs thing means a sinlge player has very little agency and you can't really be the standout player that carries, which for most solo players is a horrible thing. So all that remain are mostly casual teamplayers.

Can't say much about smite cause i hardly played it. However, the reason why i hardly played it isn't damage por reliabillity related, but because it's 3ed person rather than isometric...

So what you're saying is "This toxic thing that shouldn't exist is over represented, so the only thing to do about it is have this other lesser toxic thing". Having a dislike for both of them isn't wrong, and makes a lot more sense than your 'argument' as they should both be phased out instead of accepting toxicity as the counter to toxicity.

WoonStruck1 votes

You think there isn't powercreep?

You still think "power budget" is a real thing?

Riot's buff/nerf philosophy should tell you there is power creep, and new releases show that "power budget" isn't real.

Like, look at Malphite's "rework". They basically didn't change him outside of significantly buffing him. How you gunna say Riot makes reliable champions have low damage?

PaladinNO1 votes

Guys, you can't have both ways.

We can't? Well, they said we needed the new client to have RGMs...now we have the new client, and we apparently still can't have RGMs. :/

So we can apparently cannot have it any way.

Vonyalo1 votes

I don't think you understand how it works.... like... at all

LordGeovanni1 votes

Skill shots arent unreliable though as riot usually gives them no wind up time the ability to go through minions fast travel speed massive hit boxes and CC at to go with the massive damage that they do. But some how Supports and tanks jobs are CC but Damage dealers have better CC spells. If the majority of 'skill shots' had the wind up time of Caitlyn's Q before they cast or Varus's Q before max range cast then you could consider Skill shots unreliable and anything faster than that should have massively less damage. Skill shots have the big advantage of being range and thus the way to hit it is to just aim between you and the enemy champion if you miss it no problem long cooldowns arent a thing and you can have it back before people can walk up to you (on top of usually having a peel spell that you hold because you never have to waste it to do damage so you keep it for safetey.) so you will always be able to damage some one before they reach you unless you made a mistake walking into no vision alone as a supposedly squishy champion that you cry cause you got one shot although you want to one shot everyone.

5050BS1 votes

So there is a line on damage and skill shots.

Zoe is over the line. EZ is on the line Urgot is under the line.

Karma is over the line Lux is over the line Fizz is over the line Yasuo is over the line Akali is over every line

The issue is not, hit skill shot get bonus damage.

THe issue is hit skill shot target is dead.

Linna Excel1 votes

Is there an option for medium damage with medium reliability? Something halfway between old league and current league perhaps.

L Psy Kongroo1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Damage is relatively low, but reliable. As a result ,the game is more oriented towards tactics than mechanics (Dota 2, old League).

Damage is low in Dota 2, wut? You get 1-shot if someone looks at you funny, and in some cases it can literally happen from off-screen. Skillshots are twice as long as in League, items are basically all OP, and there are a lot more point-and-click abilities to facilitate said 1-shotting.

The only thing limiting Dota 2's champions is mana; mana pools and mana regen are significantly lower than in League, and the mana cost on abilities is significantly higher. Some champions don't even have enough base mana in their kit to perform a full rotation of abilities once. Not only that, but mana continues being an issue for almost all heroes into mid and late game (unless you have a crazy amount of Bloodstone stacks).

In League, running oom is only a concern in lane phase. After you buy an item or two, you almost never run out of mana unless you spam spells for no reason like a monkey. There are also no resourceless champions in Dota 2 like there are in League. Everyone is mechanically limited in the same way because resources are scarce, so tactics matter more.

Bârd1 votes

Yep.

There are heroes that one-shot you, but not many.

  • Phantom Assassin if she gets a lucky crit.
  • Morphling if he does E-blade into W.
  • Chaos Knight if he W's you with all his illusions.

...and that's it.

There are a lot of heroes that kill you quickly, but nobody other than those three can do enough damage to kill you in an instant, and even they can't always do it because defensive items are really good in Dota.

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