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Can someone explain to me why does Veigar have that mana Passive? Why not adjust his mana regen?

5G8Nri0B54··5 votes·1,618 views

And so he can have a REAL Passive that actually offers some sort of gameplay.

His current Passive is just the old Chalice Passive. Let us compare his Passive with other champion's shall we?

Chogath and Swain : Needs to constantly be killing something to keep their mana up, meaning if they need to gain their mana back. Cho'gath also heals from his.

Lissandra : She needs to surround herself with minions and W them in order to really get any mileage out of her Passive, because her Q only slows a single target...

Xerath : Hey this one actually works out pretty well! To force him to leave his safety in order to restore his mana. It's just out of character. But in terms of gameplay, it's excellent!

Veigar : ...it's there. You can't really do anything with it, it's there. You regenerate mana faster. It's not a supportive aura ala Heimer's health regen that can be taken marginally advantage of in a siege comp. It's just there. No gameplay.

Cassiopeia : Her OLD less terrible (it's wasn't good at all, but compared to what she has now?) Passive encourage her to constantly be assaulting her opponent, and more importantly, there is a strategic edge to it. Her W and R costs quite a bit of mana, so to really capitalize on her Passive, using those abilities at a high stack really takes the edge out of their costs. It's still a badly designed Passive in terms of offering any interesting gameplay. But still....it's a really creative pun don't you think? Deadly Cadence? Decadence?

Taric : His old Passive was great! But you got rid of that for reasons which I assume is because he did too well in roles that didn't pigeon-hole him into supports. Can't have that can we? Let's give him new passives after new passives.

NOW, looking at all those mana Passives................with the exception of Xerath and Swain's, they're all unsatisfying and are really just there to justify their huge mana costs just because Riot can't think of any other Passive to give them. ESPECIALLY in the case of Lissandra.

HOWEVER, as bad as most of them are in terms of gameplay...they still offer some gameplay. Be it forcing an auto-attack to keep their mana up, constantly be killing, or CC'ing as many things as possible.

**Veigar'S MANA PASSIVE IS JUST THERE **

So...

  1. Why does Veigar have such a pointless Passive that offers no gameplay at all?

  2. Why can't you just adjust his mana regeneration instead?

  3. Why does his R have such a cool name when it looks sooooooo underwhelming?

22 Comments

DJ Hatsune Miku4 votes

Champions with extremely strong kits have weak passives and champions with mediocre kits have amazing passives.

Lucian 's passive is so good he has pretty much only two buttons because W and R don't really do much. Vayne 's passive is fairly weak because she has mobility, steroids, and %true damage in her kit.

Veigar has a weak passive because he has the ability to gain infinite AP while having obscene ratios. 100% on W, 120% on R while also dealing their AP? His E alone is stronger than some champion's ultimates. If he had a strong passive along with this he'd be an absolute nightmare. Imagine Veigar with something like Morg's passive, it'd be retarded, he'd get chalice and never leave lane.

There's a reason he has a mediocre passive, it's called balancing.

Diostukos3 votes

1.) Veigar doesn't build mana/regen and instead builds pure damage; his passive is great for that.

2.) Uhhh, I guess if he had a really high base mana regen some regen items would be too good on him? (idk how the new regen math works). Or Veigar would have to get Athenes instead of DFG rush which would be a sort of nerf to his early game power.

3.) Hits like a truck so I doubt anyone cares. Xerath's ult is pretty lame looking as well.

It Is I Emoto2 votes

he runs extremly fast out of mana wich makes him really mana dependent at early game. I usually rush a chalice/tear at early game so i keep sure that I'm not running out of mana but jeez a new passive would be neat.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

^That guy gets it.

anyway: the rest of my response:

Basically, almost every other ap carry champion needs to rush SOME kind of sustain. Veig's passive allows him to remain in lane AND rush damage. (almost no veigars seems to do this....but thats why they dont play him, right?)

They COULD up his basic mana regen, and give him a new passive, but that actually seems a bit op O.O basically, you are calling for him to just get a second passive.

Finally, it does have game play. He regens faster if his mana is low, encouraging him to actually use abilities consistently to maintain maximum efficiency of mana regeneration.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

The bit about mana can be said about pretty much all champions with their own mana passive.

And even if it does serve a really poorly thought out function, there's still the fact that it adds NOTHING substantial to his gameplay. Nothing that really alters his interaction like Xerath's does.

Volt Cruelerz2 votes

Veigar needs mana to spam q to farm AP. I've always been totally fine with that and it makes early lane a lot easier.

That said, imagine Veigar with, say... Syndra passive? Q now bounces, W now hits in half the time, E now has a second smaller ring inside, and R just instagibs. Morgana passive? Veigar is now immortal. Vel'koz passive? Veigar now does true damage with every combo. He's like Old Xerath only worse. Karthus? You'd better have flash and an escape to use simultaneously or Veigar will always take you with him. Kat passive? My body chills at the thought of a Veigar with resets. Oh please, whatever you do do not give him resets D: Oh the humanity!

Phil Fly1 votes

Veigar needs mana to spam q to farm AP. I've always been totally fine with that and it makes early lane a lot easier.

That said, imagine Veigar with, say... Syndra passive? Q now bounces, W now hits in half the time, E now has a second smaller ring inside, and R just instagibs. Morgana passive? Veigar is now immortal. Vel'koz passive? Veigar now does true damage with every combo. He's like Old Xerath only worse. Karthus? You'd better have flash and an escape to use simultaneously or Veigar will always take you with him. Kat passive? My body chills at the thought of a Veigar with resets. Oh please, whatever you do do not give him resets D: Oh the humanity!

What about veigar with Garen's passive (only with mana, not health) o_o

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

Still not as scary as kat passive ;)

EnvyDragon1 votes

Veigar needs a rework in general.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Considering the cadence of releases this year.......I don't think he'll see anything till 2017.

ScurvyNave1 votes

Also considering how the community reacted to some of the reworks R.I.P. Cassiopeia, I wouldn't be so eager to see Veigar redone.

EnvyDragon1 votes

The cadence of releases?

Champions with gameplay updates in 2014, from January to November: Xerath Kassadin Rengar Gragas Skarner Nidalee Sona Cassiopeia Soraka Viktor Sion

That's an average of one per month.

We also know of several champions with gameplay updates either in-progress, or planned for the very near future: Fiora Warwick Darius Galio Gangplank Yorick Tristana Poppy Taric Leblanc Urgot

We've seen work-in-progress kits for Fiora and Warwick already, so we can safely assume that there's a good amount of work done already on that front. On top of that, a good number of champs with incoming updates have updates of varying size and work required - Poppy and Taric are likely to have Sion-esque reworks, for example.

Veigar likely needs a visual update as well as gameplay, but he's nowhere near the hardest, and he's one of the champions more in need of an update. His R scales on the enemy's AP, for crissakes. So much about him screams bad design.

Considering ChampUp's ramp-up (see what I did there) over the course of the year, I suspect we'll see MORE updates in 2015, not less. It's not impossible that Veigar will be one of them.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

I like current veig

EnvyDragon1 votes

People liked old Sion too.

And old Viktor.

And old Soraka.

And old Xerath.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

Fair - but by that, i meant i do not feel he needs a rework, the way those champions did.

67chrome1 votes

Most mages go item 3174 item 3089 item 3135 because mana-sustain is super important to get them to work.

Viegar can just go item 3128 item 3089 item 3135 instead because of his passive. It's not like you need to spam poke with the little guy, he mostly just needs the mana to farm up AP in the lanning phase.

I should also note HP/5 and MP/5 are massivly useful in the lanning phase, and pretty ~meh once lanning ends. Having MP/5 built into Veigar's passive helps him out when he needs that stat most.

Why not adjust his mana regen?

As for a facet behind this:

Most champions in LoL have their base-stats set to a really average value. 500+85=2000 HP, 6.5+0.66= 18 HP/5, 275+43 = 1000 Mana, 7.25+0.55=17 MP/5, 55+3.2 = 110 AD, 0.66+2.5%=1.0 AS, 17+3.5=75 armor, 30 MR, ~333 MS. You can use those values for mental-math concerning itemization, runes, and masteries for just about everyone.

Having everyone start at the same place makes a +15 AD steroid mean exactly a +15 AD steroid. All item stats can stay at very easily internalized, user-friendly values if base stats are very basic.

Also - actually highlighting stat differences in abilities is extremely useful for players - as it allows it to be readily seen "champion X has a lot of AD" or "champion Y has a lot of MP/5". Start throwing a wide range of differences into bases and you're hiding a considerable amount of the champion's power from those playing said champion and those playing against that champion. It's not like base stats are really easy to compare for the standard player - you have to go to a 3rd party site to get a solid chart that sorts everything out, and most only offer 1 stat at a time.

You also run into serious issues with modifying base-stats. Set up a tank with 1000 HP and 25 AD vs. an assassin with 250 HP and 100 AD. Now that 1000 HP warmogs is going to x5 the assassin's defense and thus time they're able to deliver damage, where a 100 AD past-season-bloodthirster would only double their damage. Inversely that 1000 HP tank is only going to double their defense with a 1000 HP warmogs, but they'd x5 it with a Bloodthirster, becoming effectively 5 times as strong.

You can quickly cause an awkward dynamic where damage-dealers feel rushing defense is optimal and tanks feel rushing damage is optimal with base-stat splits. Base stats don't come with HP/AD/AP scalings in the same way abilities do.

Anyways - to make a long post even longer, placing hidden power in base stats rather than ability tooltips is confusing, counter-intuitive, and just bad design in most cases.

Which is why Veigar gets his MP/5 in a passive. His MP/5 also really meshes well with the intended build direction and playstyle.

Gorgannan1 votes

It's so he ALWAYS has enough mana to farm Q.

It's not so he has a lot of mana.

It's JUST so he always has enough mana to farm Q.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

That could be achieved by either high base mana regen, or alternatively, a much more interesting and interactive mana passive.

Gorgannan1 votes

Actually, it couldn't.

Higher base regen would make it so he could save up for a full combo easier.

His current passive makes sure he always has mana for Q, but he can't use his passive to stockpile mana for a full combo.

Phil Fly1 votes

/rant

TL:DR Veigar still relies heavily on mana regen items to farm, even with his passive.

I play Veigar a lot (most played champ), and I have put a lot of thought into his passive. You see, if you really wanna be efficiently farming your Q, you have to use it at nearly every chance you can, to get the most AP out of the laning phase (you won't be able to get much farm mid-late game).

Veigar's passive seems okay at a glance. You regenerate mana faster, the more you are missing. However, for efficiently farming, this passive simply cannot keep up with his Q, even if you don't poke the enemy with your W or E. His mana costs only rise as you upgrade your Q, and it gets even worse in the event of a gank, where you have to use your E to escape.

Almost every single game, almost regardless of who I'm laning against, I always have to pick up a Chalice early. Without it, I can't keep up with my mana needs.

Okay, so what's so bad about picking up some extra mana regen?

#I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO SACRIFICE DAMAGE FOR MANA REGEN. I'M SUPPOSED TO HAVE A PASSIVE THAT TAKES CARE OF MY MANA NEEDS.

Now, I'm not saying to kick his passive up to something crazy enough that I can infinitely spam nukes (and laughs), but at least make it so Veigar can farm his AP and be able to buy a DFG in time for the mid-game. Like I said, he should be special in the sense that he can solely focus on damage, and have barely a worry in the world about his mana costs (provided he farms with minimal poking). If you really wanted to do all that poking shit, then you pick up your Chalice. But all I'm saying is, Veigar's passive should stay the same, but be buffed just enough so that he has just enough mana to Q farm and Q farm only.

/endrant

Sooko1 votes

Why do people dislike Athene's on Veigar? That extra CDR is amazing for farming, and he can make up for the low amount of AP with his farming. It's not like his passive actually stops his mana problems, he will go OOM even with a Tear in TFs and his cooldowns are huge. I still think Athene's rush is great on Veigar, unless you are going against an AD champion, although in that case, you already have a big problem in your hands.

Phil Fly1 votes

Why do people dislike Athene's on Veigar? That extra CDR is amazing for farming, and he can make up for the low amount of AP with his farming. It's not like his passive actually stops his mana problems, he will go OOM even with a Tear in TFs and his cooldowns are huge. I still think Athene's rush is great on Veigar, unless you are going against an AD champion, although in that case, you already have a big problem in your hands.

Because mid-end game it takes up useless room that is much better used for damage output, rather than mana (which endgame you will have enough of), or low AP (could obviously be replaced with higher AP)

EDIT: I, however, usually rush for a chalice of harmony for the mana regen, and then sell it when it starts to take up room in my inventory. It's a lot cheaper to buy and sell a Chalice, than to do the same with a full Athene's.

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