Tossing Around Ideas for Shen.

Draclen··8 votes·931 views

Recently it seems that Riot is having a bit of an issue with Shen balancing. Because of this I wanted to make a discussion to talk about why he can be tricky to work out and changes that could possibly make him easier to balance.

The Issue:

Shen is an interesting case of being a champion that is very prominent in the competitive scene but when it comes to solo play tends to struggle (this is a fact Riot themselves acknowledge). Riot has too said more then once that the Shen rework is still missing a little something to really pull it together, so a change that could work to make Shen feel more complete as well as closing the usefulness gap between competitive and regular ranked is what we're aiming for. These are the two major factors that should be thought about when taking about Shen's balance.

Why is There a Gap Between Shen's Competitive and Solo-Queue Play?:

From what I understand It's likely due to how a lot of his kit's power is so focused in his Ult. It certainly is a extremely impactful Ultimate, being able to not only save an ally's life but as well bring you to them from anywhere on the map, but because of that, his other abilities seem slightly underwhelming at times (not bad, simply they don't provide the same level of power, outside of maybe his dash). This causes whether Shen wins or loses to sometImes be decided solely on if he can get good Ults or not. In a coordinated competitive scenario this works out OK but in solo play (bar very high elo) it can make it hard for Shen as even if he pulls off a perfectly timed Ult, the fact that there's likely less communication means there's no guarantee that the person he Ulted does proper follow-up, and seeing how high his Ult's cool down is it can be rather detrimental.

What Can be Done?:

Simple, place more power in his basic abilities and if needed take some out of his Ult.

Change Ideas:

E - Already a solid ability however I think it would be nice if he got some small damage reduction during and for a short period after he uses it. Nothing to massive as he already gets a lot of tankness but it seems fitting as the other champs with a taunt (Rammus and Galio) have it.

Q - This is a simple change but one that could be super effective. When Shen uses all three of his enhanced autos or automatically by reactivating Q he can throw his spirt sword out in a skill shot. Hitting it through a champion deals a small amount of max health damage (similar to his Q autos, to keep with the idea of him being good at dueling other tanks) as well as applying a slow when walking away from Shen as though he pulled the sword through them with the first activation of his Q. This is ment to provide Shen more control over his the placement of his sword, not only opening up more gameplay avenues and outplay potential based around consistently pulling and throwing his sword through the right targets along with better poke and wave clear, but also helping out a little thematically by making Shen feel more connected with his sword. A good Shen should be defined not only by knowing the best time/place to Ult but as well his ability to effectively position his sword, and this addition could give more opportunities for the better Shen players to show this off. It could also allow him to throw a Sprit's Refuge to another teammate, being a nice buff, especially for support Shen.

R - Given how we're suggesting nothing but buffs for his other abilities it seems only reasonable that his Ult take at least a small hit (once again, shifting the power). Admittedly I don't really have many ideas for this one beside numbers but if anyone has any ideas be free to share them.

End Note:

All this is just some quick thoughts I had about the subject so if you like/dislike them please do detail why. As well don't be shy to add your own ideas as any discussion is very welcome.

15 Comments

Melledoneus4 votes

I think if the ultimate scaled more with an ally's missing HP we could niche it. Some hitbox enlargements on E and Q, as well as projectile speed increase on Q, would go a long way. Also his passive shield duration needs to be upped again, it hardly lasts as it is.

Gregor Gysi2 votes

Keep in mind that the ult changes would need to be a huge nerf seeing how Shen is very strong right now and you suggest quite big buffs overall.

Melledoneus1 votes

It's not like he couldn't use some buffs...

Not to mention the shield values would be lower if the ally is at full HP. For goodness' sake it's already a three minute cooldown for a mediocre shield.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

Shen is very strong rn, he has the 3rd highest P/B out of all toplaners while also having a very decent winrate/games played in soloQ. His overall winrate is low only because many people that play Shen are very inexperienced. Once a Shen player has 10+ games on him they average 53%+ which is pretty damn good.

So no, he most definetely does not need any buffs as he is super strong in competetive and above average in soloQ.

Melledoneus1 votes

The only reason he is strong in competitive is because his success is run by teamwork. Also, in the meta as we know now carries are the driving factor to a win, to a ridiculous degree. Shen's win rate stems from the "storm bot lane" meta, but he is not benefitting as much from it as he should.

His laning phase is absolute garbage. His Q feels like shit to use. His energy costs are ridiculous, his cooldowns are high, and his defensive steroids are underwhelming. The literal two reasons why he isn't sub-30 percent win rate is because his E and R are still the main things of his kit. His R is what pro players have grown to love, and is what makes Shen what he is.

While his win rate (which is anything but "above average" as you state) is not as bad as it seems, consider that is only because Shen becomes the carry's bitch post-6 and his underwhelming tools are hardly noticeable.

As to your argument as to having only 10 games under your belt giving a high win rate... there are three reasons for this.

  1. Shen is not mechanically difficult. If you're already good at the macro game you're pretty much set after you've got used to Shen. That's the division those stats come from.

  2. Shen is a niche pick. You do not pick Shen into many matchups, and if your carry is a hyper carry Shen is a good choice. The win rate is higher because he is not a champion you first pick.

  3. Teamwork OP. While most top laners get ultimates that provide damage, teamfight power, dueling power, or split pushing potential, Shen gets an ultimate that helps him peel for his carries from across the map. He is a team-oriented champion despite his dueling capabilities. Clumping and taking objectives is arguably the most reliable strategy given how powerful the carry role is in a snowball meta. With a champion like Shen, you'd expect him to shoot up to 60+ win rates like Rammus and Malphite did with the rising popularity of ADCs, but we got a 2% increase. Kind of tells you something, doesn't it?

Gregor Gysi1 votes

{quoted}

The only reason he is strong in competitive is because his success is run by teamwork. Also, in the meta as we know now carries are the driving factor to a win, to a ridiculous degree. Shen's win rate stems from the "storm bot lane" meta, but he is not benefitting as much from it as he should.

Not quite: "There have been two main constants, ‘Carries’ and ‘Tanks’, and there is a perpetual tug-of-war between the two. Currently, both are relevant and at times it can be tricky to choose one over the other."

Strength is always dependent on the meta and he is good (soloQ) to great (competetive) so I can't see how he is not "benefitting [...] enough".

His laning phase is absolute garbage. His Q feels like shit to use. His energy costs are ridiculous, his cooldowns are high, and his defensive steroids are underwhelming. The literal two reasons why he isn't sub-30 percent win rate is because his E and R are still the main things of his kit. His R is what pro players have grown to love, and is what makes Shen what he is.

Please stop exaggerating beyond reason, it makes it a real pain to argue with you. A more objective analysis is: his main strength lies in the map pressure and the utility that he provides with his R + E (and W somewhat) rather than his lane presence, which is in fact rather weak. This makes him especially strong in competetive while remaining relevant in soloQ (as argued in my first post).

While his win rate (which is anything but "above average" as you state) is not as bad as it seems, consider that is only because Shen becomes the carry's bitch post-6 and his underwhelming tools are hardly noticeable.

His winrate/games played is above average, that's just not debatable (except for his winrate per 0-10 games played of course).

As to your argument as to having only 10 games under your belt giving a high win rate... there are three reasons for this.

  1. Shen is not mechanically difficult. If you're already good at the macro game you're pretty much set after you've got used to Shen. That's the division those stats come from.

  2. Shen is a niche pick. You do not pick Shen into many matchups, and if your carry is a hyper carry Shen is a good choice. The win rate is higher because he is not a champion you first pick.

  3. Teamwork OP. While most top laners get ultimates that provide damage, teamfight power, dueling power, or split pushing potential, Shen gets an ultimate that helps him peel for his carries from across the map. He is a team-oriented champion despite his dueling capabilities. Clumping and taking objectives is arguably the most reliable strategy given how powerful the carry role is in a snowball meta. With a champion like Shen, you'd expect him to shoot up to 60+ win rates like Rammus and Malphite did with the rising popularity of ADCs, but we got a 2% increase. Kind of tells you something, doesn't it?

No you misunderstood me - those with <10 games have avery low winrate and as many Shen players are so inexperienced with him his winrate is low - despite increasing drastically once Shen has some games under his belt.

Now with that being said I do disagree with some of your points despite them not being relevant due to the misunderstanding:

2: Shen is a generalist pick, you can pick him into everything as he doesn't really rely on winning his lane anyways and isn't especially depending on having feed. But sure, there are better and worse situations as with any champ.

3: I agree with you categorizing him as very team-oriented, but I disagree with the ADC situation. Shen was very strong (in competetive and decent in soloQ, again) in the last time where ADC's themselves had a mostly supportive role with Jhin, Ashe and Varus. They were not so autoreliant which should've weakened Shen - but he remained dominant.

Now that Kog, Lulu and the like are returning we may see him approaching the 100% P/B in competetive - yet again.

Illâoi Evê Siôn2 votes

During the Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 3 Part II Meddler said they were testing out making his ult scale with an ally's missing Health. It never showed up on the PBE, I think, so it might not have worked out how they expected it to? Or maybe it just requires further testing. The PBE is mostly for bugs and the broad strokes after all.

Draclen1 votes

That would be pretty interesting, would put more pressure on Shen to use his Ult in clutch situations.

Toastersaot1 votes

{quoted}

I think if the ultimate scaled more with an ally's missing HP we could niche it.

This idea that I saw from you and that Rioter was golden. I don't main Shen and I haven't played him that much, but when I saw that idea I was like "Holy Shit this is genius ".

Gregor Gysi3 votes

I think the ultimate shield should be delayed by one second so that it goes like this:

Shen uses R 1 second delay Ally gets shielded 3 seconds later Shen teleports to the side of the allied champion 1 second later shield expires. If Shen get's interrupted within the first second of channeling then the ally doesn't get the shield along with the TP being cancelled - the CD may or may not be additionally reduced.

This would accomplish the following: Shen's ultimate would need to be coordinated and it would be more about the long range influence than about being a Lulu ultimate when next to an ally. Shen's ultimate would have more counterplay for the opposing laner as they have more time to interrupt it and can even interrupt the Shield which prevents "bad" Shen ultimates next to the laner only for the instant shield. The ultimate would take A LOT less of Shen's total power budget allowing him to be much more effective as a laner and 1v1 champion and also being a better teamfighter by having a more reliable E (width buff). This would result in a better soloQ performance while making him much less attractive for competetive.

inb4 nerf too harsh: Shen's ultimate needs a drastic nerf if you want him not to be gated by competetive. Harsh ultimate nerfs would also allow for great buffs elsewhere. The shield delay is also debatable, 0.5 seconds may suffice.

Draclen1 votes

Also not a bad idea, it would definitely make timing and positioning that much more important when he has to pull of those closer range, in-teamfight Ults.

PraetorPrime1 votes

What I gather from recent red posts is Shen isn't going to be tweaked but rather a rework on a larger scale. That might mean reworking his entire kit. As a Shen main I would miss that ultimate but I fail to think of a way to rework or even tweak it in a way to bring him to a new perspective. That being said I will leave that aspect alone. If Riot wants to keep the spirit sword as part of Shen then I would love to see more interactions with it and give Shen more control of it. Some ideas I had was that the sword drops where Shen is standing after he gets that last Q off or time runs out. As well if W is activated at the same time Q is then the dodge zone should be around Shen at all times. The ability to throw the sword after your last strike is indeed a cool concept you mentioned.

Draclen1 votes

I completely agree the sprit sword thing, I know a few people dislike it but I think it's a super cool play style and think they can/should flush it out more. As for if he were to have another full rework I could see them making changes to his Ult but I don't think removing it fully is necessary. I do think are times when Riot should completely let go of an ability or mechanic when they rework a champ, no matter how loved or iconic, but in my opinion this isn't one of them. On that note, now I kinda wanna make a whole other discussion on how a champion's popularity/iconicness can cause said character to suffer and how sometimes, though difficult to except, it's best to just completely change a character no matter how much the community loves them. Unfortunately, knowing my luck on the board, it likely wouldn't get much traction. Ether way, sorry, I'm just rambling at this point but thank you for the nice response.

Friendly Ram1 votes

I'd love if the sword chuck was on the w since it's obnoxious to use on allies currently.

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