In the New Demican Lore, I Hope it Shows the Good Side of the City and Not Just What it Hates.

Draclen·Jan 8, 2019·24 votes·12,458 views

Given how the new champion seems very anti-Demacian, I hope that the new lore update makes some effort to make the place seem somewhat likeable, since that's been a small irk I've had with past updates.

Take its rival nation, Noxus. Noxus believes in not just having strength, but also becoming stronger off one's own will. This manifests itself into a somewhat harsh and "ends justify the means" view by the society, but also gives people instentive to strive and be better by their own hand. It's also interesting how different people in the nation have different view points on what upholding those ideals mean, as can be seen in the tension between Darius and his fellow countrymen, and also how Riven goes against her own nation. It's come away from just being the "bad place" in Runeterra.

Compare that with Demacia. We understand that they stand for broad ideas like order, juctice, and tradition, but their goals are much more vague than that of other regions (IMO at least), and the way they're presented often, if not always, feel like an attempt to keep their own people down. While I get the idea of wanting to highlight the strictness of Demcian society and how characters like Lux might change that, at the current level Demaica seems more defined by what it's against then what it's for. It makes it feel like Demacia is a sucky place to live in, especially given how multiple characters aren't fully on board with it own biggest value of "no-magic", thus making it feel even more like a restriction: Lux, Poppy, Shyvana, Garen (uneasy about his sister, but doesn't sell her out), Jarven IV (lets Shyvana live in the kingdom even though she's half-dragon).

I think that when Riot relooked at the Noxus-Demacia conflict, they wanted to steer away from just making "one side good, other bad", but I'm afriad that in an effort to make Noxus look better, they'll just make Demacia an authoritarian ruled nation with little redeeming qualities.

39 Comments

mrmeddymanJan 8, 201914 votes

They need to embellish a bit more on Demacian positive aspects. The sense of unity between people that gets touched on in a couple stories often gets overlooked by the community and we brand Demacia as the Runeterran equivalent of Salem. Nobody talks about how Demacians helped Garen back on his feet after his uncle died

All of Demacia seemed to rally around Garen after the death of his uncle. Strangers on the street, including commoners with little to call their own, expressed their condolences, gave him gifts of respect, and offered adages of support. He was surrounded by compassion and saw Demacia as a kingdom of unity where people took care of one another, healing wounds of others as if wounds to themselves. He saw an ideal Demacia, where no one was ever truly alone.

and conversely Garen taking care of his fellow Demacians when J4 was thought to have been killed

For days, Garen was inconsolable. He couldn’t stop blaming himself for the prince’s death, even as his family and fellow soldiers tried to convince him otherwise. He remembered how the kingdom rallied around him following his uncle’s demise, and wished he could do the same for the kin of his fallen soldiers. He took up residence in the barracks with his fellow soldiers in training, and all that he earned went toward supporting the families of the fallen.

Poppy finding her place in the world after feeling alienated because of how different she was when compared to her fellow yordles

J4s journey of self-discovery and his acceptance of Shyvana

The nations adoption of outsiders like Xin Zhao and Sona

That's what Demacia is truly about, a place where everyone can belong and where everyone looks out for each other. Where higher principles like courage, communal service and duty still mean something. The wrinkle that makes Demacia interesting is that all that positive stuff is conditional, mages are persecuted, the nobility is privileged and certain aspects of their society are highly regimented like the military and law.

The key is to not lose sight of the positive stuff by over-embellishing it's flaws or painting them as villains which is what everyone gets caught up in. From a Worldbuilding point of view remember that Demacia is supposed to represent a bulwark of the past losing its' way in a modernizing world. There is a lot of value in the ideals Demacia will bring into this new world if it can survive the transition, but that's the challenge. Will Demacia flourish or flounder and champions like Lux who represent a more worldly view while still maintaining the core Demacian principles represent what it could be.

CleverCactusJan 8, 20198 votes

Exactly. Right now Demacia is viewed as an opressive nation with little good to it, when it should be portrayed as a good nation whose misplaced values of Justice and order have led to mistreatment of mages.

JeosterJan 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I mean it is an oppressive nation, it's high tradition, diviation from the tradition is likely not received well. Atleast the mages part and the mages part isn't misplaced justice and order, it's a core founding principle, it was build from people scarred from the rune wars, it's very inception is anti magic. I am pretty sure the reason Demacia is build were it is is because those that found it were running from mages and when they got there magic stopped working on them and that's where they build Demacia. But well it offers things such as security and among it's ideals helping one another exists as does from what we can tell hospitality. Of course I would argue the benefits only really exist for those that are willing to conform to it's laws and traditions and not a free for all. As for other good things, well they are obvious a brave and courageous lot. An elite disciplined army.

They also have little contact with the outside world since their fertile lands allow them to be self sufficient and they likely have a misstrust on the outside world and outsiders as a consequence.

Edit: But aside from all that Sylas is just way worse than the whole Demacia is with all it's faults, after all his own Demacia would probably be conquered fast. He would have pretty much destroyed the army, probably no real commanders to guide people into battle, there would be no real faith or unity between the people after tearing down the traditions even though the traditions had faults. There would be more deserters no discipline, no real way to defend.

Wert the WackyJan 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I mean it is an oppressive nation, it's high tradition, diviation from the tradition is likely not received well. Atleast the mages part and the mages part isn't misplaced justice and order, it's a core founding principle, it was build from people scarred from the rune wars, it's very inception is anti magic. I am pretty sure the reason Demacia is build were it is is because those that found it were running from mages and when they got there magic stopped working on them and that's where they build Demacia. But well it offers things such as security and among it's ideals helping one another exists as does from what we can tell hospitality. Of course I would argue the benefits only really exist for those that are willing to conform to it's laws and traditions and not a free for all. As for other good things, well they are obvious a brave and courageous lot. An elite disciplined army.

They also have little contact with the outside world since their fertile lands allow them to be self sufficient and they likely have a misstrust on the outside world and outsiders as a consequence.

Edit: But aside from all that Sylas is just way worse than the whole Demacia is with all it's faults, after all his own Demacia would probably be conquered fast. He would have pretty much destroyed the army, probably no real commanders to guide people into battle, there would be no real faith or unity between the people after tearing down the traditions even though the traditions had faults. There would be more deserters no discipline, no real way to defend.

Because no revolution has ever lead to the existence of a successful country.

JeosterJan 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Because no revolution has ever lead to the existence of a successful country.

His revolution isn't even done with the favor of the people, it's mage outcasts. His attitude, in game quotes etc all hint a focus on destruction and tearing apart than bringing something new. Even If he were to win, he would be rulling over a general populace that both hates him and fears him. They wouldn't fight for his country, heck they could even likely just sell out to a foreign conqueror.

Wert the WackyJan 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

His revolution isn't even done with the favor of the people, it's mage outcasts. His attitude, in game quotes etc all hint a focus on destruction and tearing apart than bringing something new. Even If he were to win, he would be rulling over a general populace that both hates him and fears him. They wouldn't fight for his country, heck they could even likely just sell out to a foreign conqueror.

They need a clean slate before they rebuild. Demacia as it is needs to be eradicated before they have a chance to move on.

HalfTangibleJan 10, 20191 votes

Civil wars and revolutions more often are instigated by outside forces so that the country is easier to invade.

Sylas' revolution is entirely about tearing down any traditions and customs Demacia has and he outright wants to kill everyone who supported the previous system, which would include most of the military. We're not talking about, say, America where the old system was overthrown and new ideals put in its place; Sylas doesn't have any grand plan for a constitution, he's an anarchist who wants to tear down the crown.

(also in America's case we needed the French's help to win the thing)

DraclenJan 9, 20194 votes

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Don’t get rid of the bad elements, but emphasize the positive aspects as well.

Vlada CutJan 9, 20193 votes

Yes but why explain how good Demacia is in a story of a dude who only hates it. I think we should know exactly HIS reasons as to why he hates Demacia so much, I mean we already one one reason already, and that's mages being unwelcomed there.

DraclenJan 9, 20191 votes

Yeah, of course from Sylas’ perspective we’d only see the bad parts of Demacia, and his story will likely focus on the short comings of the nation. However, if past trends are anything to go off of, there will likely be stories outside of his released as well, and I hope that those highlight some of the good parts of their society.

Vlada CutJan 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, of course from Sylas’ perspective we’d only see the bad parts of Demacia, and his story will likely focus on the short comings of the nation. However, if past trends are anything to go off of, there will likely be stories outside of his released as well, and I hope that those highlight some of the good parts of their society.

Exactly. Outside of his release.

HalfTangibleJan 10, 20191 votes

The issue imo is that we also have For Demacia, Lux's entire story is about fear of discovery, Garen is hardline anti-magic, Vayne exists, Fiora's story is about cutthroat nobility... hatred for mages/magic is EVERYWHERE in Demacia.

We've already SEEN Demacia's dark side just about everywhere, even in places where we SHOULD be seeing its best. Jarvan/Shyvana's story is the only real example I can think of where the unity, cooperation and brotherhood of Demacia - its supposed positive aspects - is emphasized to any degree.

Wert the WackyJan 9, 20192 votes

Demacia doesn’t necessarily need redeeming qualities imo. Authoriatarian fascist countries rarely have good aspects to them.

HalfTangibleJan 9, 20193 votes

The entire reason Noxus and Demacia were changed was to move away from the clear divide between good and evil. If you just make Demacia pure evil, you haven't fixed the issue, you've just changed who the bad guy is.

And if there's nothing redeemable about it, then why are ostensibly good guys like Jarvan, Lux, Garen and the like fighting for the country? Why haven't they joined Sylas in tearing the established order down? Answer: There's good here and they want to fight for it.

Wert the WackyJan 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The entire reason Noxus and Demacia were changed was to move away from the clear divide between good and evil. If you just make Demacia pure evil, you haven't fixed the issue, you've just changed who the bad guy is.

And if there's nothing redeemable about it, then why are ostensibly good guys like Jarvan, Lux, Garen and the like fighting for the country? Why haven't they joined Sylas in tearing the established order down? Answer: There's good here and they want to fight for it.

Jarvan, Garen, and Lux aren’t objectively good people. They willing serve an oppressive system that slaughters the innocent to ensure the rich and powerful stay rich and powerful.

Having Demacia be fascist doesn’t just change the roles of Noxus and Demacia, because Noxus does still have some issues. I just don’t see any quality of Demacia that justifies oppresssing the majority in favor of the wealthy elite. A good real life comparison is The United States vs Nazi Germany. Sure, the US had and still does have many issues, but when against a fascist nation that slaughters and oppresses it’s own people, they’re the good guys. It’s not “perfect country vs. pure evil country” it’s “mostly good country vs. country led by evil people.”

Stars ShaperJan 9, 20193 votes

By this then Noxus is a pit of hell because it's based on the law of the jungle and it's a cove of betrayals, creatures that hunt victims in the night and a sect based on the exploit of others to pursue their powerhunger.

HalfTangibleJan 9, 20193 votes

Agreed.

Noxus and Demacia should both have good points and bad points. That's how countries work and it's far more interesting than 'Demacia is pure evilz cuz it's fascistic and oppresses mages' or 'Noxus is pure evilz cuz everybody's a dick'.

Wert the WackyJan 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9xPLU9sT,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-09T17:46:25.560+0000)

By this then Noxus is a pit of hell because it's based on the law of the jungle and it's a cove of betrayals, creatures that hunt victims in the night and a sect based on the exploit of others to pursue their powerhunger.

Well you’ve never read any of the new noxian lore then

HalfTangibleJan 10, 20191 votes

He's mocking your (lack of) logic, mate.

HalfTangibleJan 9, 20192 votes

That is an incredible piece of mental gymnastics you just performed there.

"Having Demacia be fascist doesn’t just change the roles of Noxus and Demacia"

Yes it does, you're just changing who the bad guy is. That doesn't fix the issue.

"A good real life comparison is the United States vs Nazi Germany"

You try to say that Noxus and Demacia aren't pure evil versus pure good, so you pick the closest thing to a pure good vs pure evil fight the real world has ever had?! How does that help your case?!

"It’s not “perfect country vs. pure evil country” it’s “mostly good country vs. country led by evil people.”"

So it's still evil vs good. Like I was saying, you haven't fixed the problem, you've just changed who's on what side.

Wert the WackyJan 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That is an incredible piece of mental gymnastics you just performed there.

"Having Demacia be fascist doesn’t just change the roles of Noxus and Demacia"

Yes it does, you're just changing who the bad guy is. That doesn't fix the issue.

"A good real life comparison is the United States vs Nazi Germany"

You try to say that Noxus and Demacia aren't pure evil versus pure good, so you pick the closest thing to a pure good vs pure evil fight the real world has ever had?! How does that help your case?!

"It’s not “perfect country vs. pure evil country” it’s “mostly good country vs. country led by evil people.”"

So it's still evil vs good. Like I was saying, you haven't fixed the problem, you've just changed who's on what side.

Well I don’t know how you’re going to get away from good vs evil. One of them is always going to be good, and one evil, all that can vary is how bad or good they are. The fact that you view the US as pure good makes it clear that you don’t have the mental capacity to hold a reasoned discussion about this using facts and simple logic though.

Stars ShaperJan 9, 20192 votes

TFW Nazi should be considered the good ones in that matchup xD

The more we go on the more you expose your wicked vision of the world.

Wert the WackyJan 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9xPLU9sT,comment-id=000500000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-09T20:16:19.776+0000)

TFW Nazi should be considered the good ones in that matchup xD

The more we go on the more you expose your wicked vision of the world.

Noxus couldn’t be considered like the Nazis in any way whereas Demacia is literally the same thing as Nazi Germany. A fascist country that blames all their problems on a minority and oppressed everyone else to keep the rich in power.

Stars ShaperJan 10, 20192 votes

Quit going off topic.

You said that the USA couldn’t be cinsidered the good guys in your other reply and this is what I’m questioning.

HalfTangibleJan 10, 20191 votes

I don't, you idiot, I said "the closest thing to pure good vs pure evil". The US (well, the allies) versus the Nazis (the axis) is the closest thing to pure good vs pure evil we've ever had in the real world and it is a piss poor comparison.

But you're avoiding the actual topic here. Demacia and Noxus were good vs evil. Now you want it flipped around so that it's evil vs good, and you claim this fixes the issue. It doesn't. At all. In any sense.

Stars ShaperJan 9, 20192 votes

The fact that you consider Demacia fascist is enough of a bias for you not to have a valid opinion.

Wert the WackyJan 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9xPLU9sT,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-01-09T17:15:06.936+0000)

The fact that you consider Demacia fascist is enough of a bias for you not to have a valid opinion.

What a convincing argument you made that the country who oppresses and slaughters it’s own people to ensure the rich and powerful stay that way is not fascist. Your many reasoned points with strong basis in canon lore are undoubtedly true. (Sarcasm)

Really, you pretty much just said “no u”

Stars ShaperJan 9, 20192 votes

Because that's the most accurate answer to your post which is nothing more than: "but they ARE the bad guys!" while displaying a Noxus avatar.

Camille FerrøsJan 8, 20191 votes

Is it even confirmed that we are getting new demacian lore other then his short story ¿

DraclenJan 8, 20191 votes

Hmm, true, could be. I just assumed since it would make sense (like how with Neeko they touched on some other related champions' lore).

Warlord RhinarkJan 8, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Camille Ferrøs,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9xPLU9sT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-08T20:26:12.920+0000)

Is it even confirmed that we are getting new demacian lore other then his short story ¿

Well there is Kayle & Morgana's rework coming out, and they are both listed under Demacia, so hopefully we get some more Demacian lore there too.

Camille FerrøsJan 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9xPLU9sT,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-01-08T20:47:09.369+0000)

Well there is Kayle & Morgana's rework coming out, and they are both listed under Demacia, so hopefully we get some more Demacian lore there too.

I think we will just get a line about them having to do something with demacia. But about lore I would say Targon for obvious reasons.

Velzard of KozJan 8, 20191 votes

Are they listed under demacia even as for after rework? I think it has been hinted by SI that Morgana is Darkin long ago (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JkHTUY6a-is-morgana-a-darkin-now). So I'd assume the rework would make them Shuriman and Kayle would be example of Golden Ascended that didn't go Darkin and Morgana perhaps one of the firt Darkin.

Warlord RhinarkJan 9, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Velzard of Koz,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9xPLU9sT,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2019-01-08T23:05:15.219+0000)

Are they listed under demacia even as for after rework? I think it has been hinted by SI that Morgana is Darkin long ago (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JkHTUY6a-is-morgana-a-darkin-now). So I'd assume the rework would make them Shuriman and Kayle would be example of Golden Ascended that didn't go Darkin and Morgana perhaps one of the firt Darkin.

No.

On the official map of Runeterra, they are listed under Demacia.

https://map.leagueoflegends.com/

Reav3 confirmed that Kayle and Morgana won't be neither Shuriman Ascended nor Darkin.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kaylemains/comments/9ac0nz/just_one_thing_can_we_all_agree_to_not_act_like/

Velzard of KozJan 9, 20191 votes

That feels odd then due to that one line and I believe Aatrox refers to Kayle as "You were not worthy of Ascension" or something. That makes me really curious what they have for them.

Warlord RhinarkJan 9, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Velzard of Koz,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9xPLU9sT,comment-id=00000001000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-09T14:38:29.486+0000)

That feels odd then due to that one line and I believe Aatrox refers to Kayle as "You were not worthy of Ascension" or something. That makes me really curious what they have for them.

Well, "ascension" isn't necessarily the same as "Ascension via the Sun Disc".

It just means you are elevated to some higher state of power by some means.

I.E, as Reav3 hinted at, obtaining a Targonian Aspect.

Stars ShaperJan 8, 20191 votes

I have few hopes, really few because not only Demacia is suffering from it but Piltover too and it's very well clear that the writers love the rebellious and "i make my rules" trope see how much focus they have in showing how good is Bilgewater, Noxus and how the Vs event of Garen Vs Darius was handled.