When are you going to nerf tristana and twitch ?

Yi Bencheikh·Nov 1, 2017·36 votes·1,575 views

These two even without ardent they are still op as hell It is just to much we've been going for patches now and no real nerf to tristana or twitch

21 Comments

DauntNov 1, 20179 votes

Even thought Trist is a really annoying champ she wasn't out of line before the crit buffs. I'd target the nerf to crit.

EedatNov 1, 20178 votes

These two even without ardent they are still op as hell

Theyre really not

Hayaishi2Nov 1, 201712 votes

{quoted}

Theyre really not

Idk i'm pretty sure Twitch is.

He's been OP for what feels like forever now.

PoskeNov 1, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Theyre really not

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EedatNov 1, 20171 votes

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DuskDaUmbreonNov 1, 20176 votes

Because they're not OP. Tristana is cancerous to try to kill, but not really busted. Twitch is a pain to get close to, but he's not broken either.

We can statistically prove this.

Just because you lose to them doesn't mean anything beyond you losing to them.

KloqdqNov 1, 201711 votes

{quoted}

Because they're not OP. Tristana is cancerous to try to kill, but not really busted. Twitch is a pain to get close to, but he's not broken either.

We can statistically prove this.

Just because you lose to them doesn't mean anything beyond you losing to them.

Providing a winrate on an adc is about as statistically proven as showing me a tissue paper and calling it art. ADCs have horribly skewed winrates due to the nature of the class.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 1, 20177 votes

He's talking about these two specific marksmen.

Meaning he's not talking about the class (where winrates would be useless), but two specific champions. Their winrates we can use to prove this. As most marksmen aren't being complained about (or even able to be considered broken), we can realistically say that marksmen as a whole are not broken.

So we look at these two marksmen. And both of their win rates are around 50%.

ADCs have horribly skewed winrates due to the nature of the class.

If we follow that logic, you can use that to call anyone broken...

KloqdqNov 1, 20178 votes

{quoted}

He's talking about these two specific marksmen.

Meaning he's not talking about the class (where winrates would be useless), but two specific champions. Their winrates we can use to prove this. As most marksmen aren't being complained about (or even able to be considered broken), we can realistically say that marksmen as a whole are not broken.

So we look at these two marksmen. And both of their win rates are around 50%.

If we follow that logic, you can use that to call anyone broken...

Then we look at their playrates. Oh Trist has a 30% pick rate and Twitch has a 15%? Man, I wonder why these results are so skewed. Almost every Marksman has nearly a 50% winrate but they all have massive playrates. The same can be said for a lot of champions like this. Just because a champion has a balanced winrate, doesn't mean they aren't a problem.

No one seems to consider that maybe the winrates look so fine because bot lane always has a marksman, always has a winner or a loser, has a small pool of viable marksman and always have massive pick rates.

PoskeNov 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Then we look at their playrates. Oh Trist has a 30% pick rate and Twitch has a 15%? Man, I wonder why these results are so skewed. Almost every Marksman has nearly a 50% winrate but they all have massive playrates. The same can be said for a lot of champions like this. Just because a champion has a balanced winrate, doesn't mean they aren't a problem.

No one seems to consider that maybe the winrates look so fine because bot lane always has a marksman, always has a winner or a loser, has a small pool of viable marksman and always have massive pick rates.

Tristana,Xayah,Twitch,Kog

ARE Curently tier under zero

Once they get nerfed we get another ADC carousel with Jinx and cait being leaders

After 7 rows of nerfs. Maybe ADC wont be the most influencal class

KloqdqNov 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Tristana,Xayah,Twitch,Kog

ARE Curently tier under zero

Once they get nerfed we get another ADC carousel with Jinx and cait being leaders

After 7 rows of nerfs. Maybe ADC wont be the most influencal class

This ^

This happens every single time. It's just a freaking cycle that Riot can't fix and I can't blame them when the class is binary, relays heavily on items and other classes to determine their viability.

We went from lethality to crit to hyper carry and now we'll just see what pre-season starts.

Sewer SideNov 2, 20172 votes

Translation: their current winrates are unremarkable at the moment, so I need to find another metric to still call them OP.

I'll bet my left fucking (redacted) that you'd quote his WR if it was 54%+ still and completely forget this "hurr ADC WR are skewed" nonsense.

KloqdqNov 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEbgEQeZ,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-11-02T14:28:08.826+0000)

Translation: their current winrates are unremarkable at the moment, so I need to find another metric to still call them OP.

I'll bet my left fucking (redacted) that you'd quote his WR if it was 54%+ still and completely forget this "hurr ADC WR are skewed" nonsense.

My point is that people aren't looking at the whole picture. I hardly use winrates if I am talking about a champions strengths because it's rare that just winrates reflect a champions strength. If a champion has a busted winrate along with a massive play rate (10%+ is what I'd consider big) than yeah, I would quote both of those numbers because those are pretty evident fact that maybe a champion is crazy good if 30% of players can still manage to keep a winrate at 55%+, that he is overpowered. There are of course many other factors at place here like player enjoyment, champion's design, state of the game and more.

Bot lane has 16 marksmen, with every game always having one of them. That means right off the bat they have an average 50% chance of winning. Now depending on meta, items, etc, their playrates will change drastically. When 9 of them have 10% playrates but they all average about 50% winrates, I think it's really hard to determine just by winrates if a champion is strong here. Now again, if say Tristana had 30% play rate but had a 55% winrate, than yes, I'd call her OP without even having to debate it. But when it's rare for a majority of the class to even stratch 51% winrate (Only MF, Twitch and Draven are doing this), I can't really relay on that winrate as a fact as easily as I could with say Malzahar with a 8% play rate but 54% winrate.

I am not finding another reason to call them OP. I am just stating why winrates are not everything. Going back to my OP,

Providing a winrate on an adc is about as statistically proven as showing me a tissue paper and calling it art. ADCs have horribly skewed winrates due to the nature of the class.

Yes, please tell me how I am trying to call these champions OP when I am just stating a fact. Bot lane has numerous factors at play here. Winrate is simply not everything and people really need to stop trying to use that as the single, most important factor to see if a champion is strong.

Galio - 44% winrate. People call him broken and OP even though his results show this is directly not the case. Even then, Riot would be willing to nerf him. If that shows you that winrates aren't everything than I don't know what will.

kalima994Nov 1, 20173 votes

When they stop selling skins, omega squad twitch is still pretty new

Te4 KettleNov 2, 20173 votes

I feel like I should leave my Thoughts here. Despite my name being a bit of a pun on Twitch's name and the starter pokemon that I had when I first started a playthrough in mystery dungeon, I play pretty much all AD's. I have an unpopular opinion that Twitch isn't op, but I think he might be a little strong right now. The only nerf he would really need IMO would be a cooldown increase on his ult and possibly a bonus attack speed reduction on his Q, anything beyond that, he'll become unplayable. Tristana, I think her power lies in her rocket jump and her ability to siege towers. Not because of how you can buffer CC, while that IS annoying, safe AD's have their place in league. What needs to be addressed is her way her W resets. Her W gets a full reset on a Kill, Assist, or a fully stacked E charge. What would make her much more healthy to play against would be having her W reset by 70%, similar to how Yi's Q resets bu 70% on a kill or assist, so then she wouldn't be able to jump onto you stack her E, and then jump on you and follow your flash, as well as be able to jump into your team, kill the ad in 3 hits, and jump out without any danger; shes an adc, not an assassin. With her E, she can annilate towers without a second thought, I've died with the wave pushed up against her tower, only to lose my tower at 10 minutes because shes able to use her E on them, and if not remove the ability to stack it on towers, perhaps introduce a 50% damage reduction on towers.

You might see the Bias in the above paragraph, and so do I. But that's because of one factor, the mental capacity required to play the champion. Tristana is one of the most beginner friendly and safest in the game, while Twitch requires some brainpower. I've seen first time Tristana's carry a game easily, while any time I see a Twitch without much experience, he uses his ult incorrectly, or more commonly, position in the wrong place and then get blown up because they're easily vulnerable. As much as I see people complaining about the two champions, while I understand some of it, it seems a bit much. People don't realize that you can use a control ward in lane and in the river to be able to reveal a Twitch while roaming or positioning to setup for a gank, or how he can get blown up really easily if your team is focused solely on him. You have to play Around a Twitch, and from my experience, most people don't know how to do that. Tristana, she was broguth back into the meta because of the ardent censor and the game running a bit longer and being more focused on the ad.

Another factor about these champs specifically, they haven't been touched in a while, at least to a major degree, disregarding Trist's W change. Twitch has been in his place in the meta for a while, but he was brought to prominence due to the bot lane becoming more passive and a farm-fest. Once the pre-season comes in and more lane bullies, and the bot lane speeds up a bit, then they'll fall out of the meta and become death fodder. Seriously, try to play twitch or Trist against a good Draven, Lucian, and with the right support, Varus. its living hell and they punish you out of the laning phase. These champs have counter play, and open up opportunities for early game focused champs to get an easy lead.

if you have any constructive criticism on my post, or would like to have an open discussion, I'd love to hear it and discuss. If not, I hope this comment was informative, and you have a great day.

XeroS DongPanNov 1, 20171 votes

not really if just that they have great scaling and playstyle that sometimes ppl will tend to make mistake ... as long as u know how to play against it u can decrease the chance of them winning.... thus in Soloq trsit and twitch are op because they love the chao and disorganize which will help them get gold and exp thus making hit there powe spike faster which many ppl like u complain that they are op.... If u watch pro play game u will see how ppl fight around those champ but soloq.... welll it kinda of a pain i nthe ass bro

notice me Sin piNov 1, 20171 votes

we dont rly know if they will be in the op tier once rune rework happens, so riot's just waiting for preseason before balancing them

Rustling BushNov 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=notice me Sin pi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEbgEQeZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-11-01T22:32:01.193+0000)

we dont rly know if they will be in the op tier once rune rework happens, so riot's just waiting for preseason before balancing them

they won't stray to far, but the new rune system will be a more game changing then some AD and a little attack speed, im actually afraid that their snowballing potential will be even more amplified after the rune rework.

notice me Sin piNov 2, 20171 votes

it's not just the marksmen that get OP runes tho... but we will find out when preseason happens. My guess is that dark harvest rune could bring back assassins in meta, making ADCs less impactful but im not entirely sure.