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The big problem about the scuttle changes, not pertaining to balance, that has not been addressed.

VICHEL CHAOS·5/19/2018, 7:18:47 AM·2 votes·1,331 views

So, I really understand that time is needed to see where the changes land. However, taking the situation of needing laners help when taking scuttle into account there is still something that has not really been discussed that I feel is the worst outcome of the changes: the feeling of losing control over how we jungle. Let me get into detail.

One of the nice aspects of jungling that can be very entincing is the feeling of deciding where to go and how to go. Junglers have to decide where to path, who to gank, which camps to take in what areas and how to optimize efficient clears, and part of the appeal of jungling is that these decisions are meaningful and that we are the ones who get to decide how to use our jungling time. The problem right now is not the first scuttle spawn, it gives similar reward if not slightly less than gromp, but the next ones after grow increasingly important very fast. This means that once the small icon on the minimap that displays where the next scuttle will appear we have to basically drop everything we are doing and prepare to do it. This usually means clearing the opposite side jungle to prevent those camps from being stolen and then heading over to the spawn to reach it in time to contest it or maybe drop a ward or two. This happens continually. We lose the feeling that we have control over our actions and that we are pulled from one place to another by circumstances. Imagine (a common hypothetical situation) that the bot side jungle is spawning, followed by top side jungle and then Scuttler at top. Maybe I want to gank bot lane, my previous options would have been to either clear bot then clear top and gank mid or top or clear bot/gank bot (in any order) and then path toward top lane. But now I am pulled to clearing bot and heading to Scuttle, because I know that unless my gank has significant success then I will fall behind (blowing a summonner spell or two would have been considered success before, but now it is insuficient compared to the opportunity cost of conceding scuttle). Options are lost. The moment that the scuttle respawn icon appears we just have to follow its wishes. Maybe I'd love to gank top to give a hand to a slightly struggling teammate by taking say 30% hp off his opponent real quick before a full clear, but now unless I know we will get a kill then I'm better off heading off botlane because the icon appeared there. You want a gank? Better hope that scuttle is spawning near your lane.

The worst part about this is that this does not even consider the effect of your clear efficiency going down the drain by introducing the rng nature of scuttles. When we jungle we typically path in ways that whole sections of the jungle respawn at a time so we can clear them efficiently and get a baseline of gold and experiencs. Imagine I am half way through one camp bot side and scuttle icon appears bot side. I know that it will not be timely possible to clear the whole jungle before going to scuttle in time, so after doing one camp I am forced to clear the opposing side then come back to scuttle. This, apart form being inefificient itself, makes the camps respawn in a pattern that makes clearing them in subsequent rotations less efficient, making that the whole jungling efficiency goes down the drain. This becomes a massive problem that stacks up and is exacerbated if you lose the scuttle fights. This is the reason that you see junglers randomly fall very far behind lately. However, maybe one of the junglers has chosen a path that by pure luck coincides with a few scuttle spawns favorably, his clear will not be affected. Hence, in these situations just by pure RNG luck one jungler has efficient pathing while the other does not, hence he falls massively behind unless he wins most of the scuttle fights.

To summarize, the worse part in my opinion that these changes brought is not fundamentally a balance problem. The big problem is that jungling feels much worse now, the feeling of losing control over our decisions in the jungle by a random chance spawn is horrible. That feeling of "goddamn it the stupid scuttle spawned bottom so I have to leave this camp else I will not be able to contest it" Really kills you inside. As someone in another thread said, we feel yanked from one place to another constantly. Please give us our deicsion making back.

8 Comments

Aptest5/19/2018, 7:38:28 AM2 votes

I really don't want to make any kind of opinion yet. I do have some ideas in the thought stream though. So please don't take my ramblings as any king of definitive or fleshed out opinion.

The loss of control junglers are facing is theoretically a positive thing. Because until now the junglers get to decide whether they interact with a lane or not. and there is not enough opportunity or incentive for a lane to force the interaction on the jungler.

This means that the interaction between lane and jungle is one sided, or as you put it: "the feeling of deciding where to go and how to go". But actually it should be a two-way street. Lane should have more opportunity and incentive to pressure the jungler (and pay with opportunity cost of other things).

There are a lot of valid points you and the other guy are making though. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about RNG. With the other person I agree with 90% of his text so far. Loss of control because of increased interactions with lane initiated by lane is positive and desirable and you as a jungler will feel crap about it because loss of control is loss of control.

but loss of control because of losing a NPC spawn roulette? That's god-damn aweful. This is supposed to be a game of skill not a visit to the casino.

YOU SO BAD5/19/2018, 8:52:07 AM2 votes

So your complaining about having to make a strategic choice in a strategy game........... in the words of Rammus ok

You need to be adaptable and flexible. if your playing in such a way that your entire game is ruined by 1 thing its not a good strategy.

lol seriously should we remove baron cuz when its up you need to play around it every time it respawns

or rift harold

or drake.

do you see the problem of that logic?

You shouldnt be able to just sit around and do whatever you want its not a sandbox game. There are objectives and its up to you to control them or figure out what to do if you dont want to control them. Thats the whole point of a moba. Is to out wit out smart and outplay your oponent who has the same chance and information as you do. if you just want to grind farm and do what you want then RPGs are for you.

YOU SO BAD5/19/2018, 7:24:20 AM1 votes

Or just give up scuttle and

  1. gank.

  2. counter gank after the enemy jungler takes scuttle.

  3. COUNTER JUNGLE as you know exactly what the enemy just did if they are at scuttle.

List goes on and on and on.

The only thing this changes was objective prioritization. And relief of early pressure on laners.

The game exists for more years without scuttle and the jungler was in alot better place then. reducing the amount of them only helps jungle diversity and relieves early POINTLESS advantages to junglers who get rewarded with a scuttle regardless of where they choose to gank.