Help With Udyr

Nubeel·Aug 24, 2014·2 votes·1,285 views

So I recently bought Udyr and I played a few games with him. I like him but I have no idea how to put points in his skills. I don't like to blindly follow guides but I do use them as a reference when I'm inexperienced with champions.

My problem is most guides seem to disagree on what to totally max out and what to leave with only 3 or 4 points in.

I like his Tiger and Phoenix stance the most but I don't know which one to max completely and which one to leave unfinished. Or should I leave Bear and Turtle unmaxed and max Tiger and Phoenix?

Some advice with pros and cons would be really appreciated.

Thanks :)

19 Comments

ProfDrDeathAug 25, 20141 votes

Generally, there are two recognized forms of Udyr: Tiger Udyr and Phoenix Udyr.

Tigyr is the single best melee range duelist during early to mid game. He builds mostly tanky AD with item 3074 or item 3078 , since Tiger gives him a good AS steroid and scales really well with AD.

Phoenyr is the clearing monster. Few champions have comparable clear speeds to a Phoenix stance Udyr, especially once he got a few items under his belt. He builds mostly tanky AS/on-hit to complement his intrinsic on-hit effects, with items like item 3160 and item 3091 .

A problem with Udyr is, though, how hard he is gated by mana, even in the jungle. He's one of those junglers who'd really want item 3106 into item 3154 and item 3160 , but can't hardly afford to lose out on the mana regen mechanics from item 1080 .

NubeelAug 25, 20141 votes

Which one falls off harder? Because I really don't want that. I mean just looking at his numbers (with my inexperienced nooby bronze eyes) it looks like Tiger Udyr does better late game. And considering that a FF is a late game investment I want to go for whichever does best late game even if it's at the cost of a bit of clear speed.

How would you put points into skills though? Assuming I pick either Phoenix or TIger. Would you fully max Bear and Turtle and leave the last with 3 points? Or Max Phoenix and Turtle and say leave Tiger and Bear with 4 points each?

12talesAug 26, 20141 votes

Udyr falls off obscenely hard pretty much no matter what. The best you can hope for in the late game is to maybe splitpush or pressure with the threat of soloing baron. Either way, you're not going to get anything done in teamfights unless the enemy ADC straight up doesn't know how to orb walk.

NubeelAug 26, 20141 votes

Tiger is better for soloing baron and splitpushing though isn't it? And I'm in Bronze 3 lol, half the people here don't even know what orb walking is.

ProfDrDeathAug 26, 20142 votes

Not necessarily - in teamfights, Udyr is a great bodyguard for an ADC, as he can stun each enemy every 5 seconds and does quite a lot of damage. Works well against assassins, who are prone to fall rather fast between Udyr's and his ADC's damage.

Using him like this necessitates other divers on your team, though, as Udyr then can't be the one to dive.

But I still agree, late-game isn't Udyr's strongest side.

Rew711Aug 26, 20141 votes

I'd say it's all up to you. Bear is actually really good. Crowd control, stun, and +movement speed are good. But they need to de-nerf that 1 second stun to a 1.2 to at least a 1.5. Doesn't leave good room to use any other ability with such a stun.

I understand though. Tigers attack speed and Phoenix's fire passive are truly amazing. But the turtle is also just as amazing. Gives you plus HP for a short time and (get this) life steal. So each of them are worth it. So, that's all I will give.

NubeelAug 26, 20141 votes

I never said they weren't worth it. My only point regarding Bear stance is that the stun stays at 1 second at all ranks. All you get is more movement speed that lasts longer and the shield from Turtle stance only looks useful if you max it very early because 220 HP with AP scaling isn't going to do anything late game.

Rew711Aug 26, 20141 votes

I'm just happy I'm not the only one mad about that. The 1 second stun while Morgana and Sion get like 3 second stuns and no one bats an eyelash.

But there isn't much all that bad about the Turtle. Though I don't use it, it is a hand tool when trying to turn fights or get away from ganks or even get rid of ignite/bleeding effects.

NubeelAug 26, 20141 votes

It is fairly stupid that it only lasts one second with a 6 second cooldown whereas other champions stun for more than twice as long with half the cooldown.

With Udyr though you build a item 3074 or a item 3153 so you already have 15% lifesteal so putting only 4 points in Turtle in exchange for an extra one in Tiger/Phoenix gives you far more damage and attack speed at the cost of 2% lifesteal and 40 HP less in the shield which is a good trade if you ask me. And putting only 4 in Bear loses you 5% MS and 0.25 seconds off the duration again for more damage and attack speed.

For me that's optimal but as I said, I know nothing about Udyr so I may be completely wrong.

Thing is in Bronze you have to go into each game expecting your team to fuck up and that You'll have to carry. With that mentality on a late game investment like a item 3160 you want the biggest late game impact you can get.

Rew711Aug 26, 20141 votes

lol, you're on the right track with udyr and his need for those things. but i never use those. i do however always start with item 3078 as my first item (after boots of course) due to udyr needing a good bit of everything starting off.

NubeelAug 26, 20141 votes

Well Item build aside, Do you usually go Phoenix or Tiger? And what influences your choice?

Rew711Aug 26, 20141 votes

personally i go tiger but that's me. i do go phoenix however if i top lane if you understand. i liked tiger because of the added AD, bleed effect, and turrent push it has. but keep in mind that tiger and phoenix aren't what make udyr strong.

12talesAug 26, 20141 votes

You almost always want to max bear. Which of the remaining three abilities you leave at rank 3 is situational, depending on what you want to do.

I personally have the most success ranking Phoenix and Bear alongside each other for most of the early and mid game, and then maxing either tiger (for more objective focused gameplay) or turtle (for more teamfight focused gameplay) as the situation requires.

Kazellion2Aug 26, 20141 votes

Depends when you want to gank, you'll want to put point in bear the level before you first gank.

Phoenix Udyr will commonly put a single point in tiger at level 2 and tiger udyr put a single point in phoenix and then nothing until last. End game unless you snowball hard early will nearly always be 3 points in your secondary damage ability with max turtle(sustain, living in fights), max bear(engage,chase,mobility) and 5 in primary attack. Damage comes from triforce and stance dancing not just your primary stance.

Playing phoenix stance dance just after breathing not always skill spam.

JC DarkOmenOct 29, 20141 votes

DON'T LISTEN TO ANYONE SAYING TO BUILD item 3074 ON UDYR. I'm am Udyr main and I've done the math: AD Udyr cannot do as much damage as attack speed Udyr (more specifically, using AD bruiser items only AD Udyr cannot build 2x as much AD as AS Udyr, but AS Udyr can build 2x as much AS as AD Udyr). So as far as itemization goes, I like item 3078 item 3172 item 3153 item 3160 for damage. For the 'lack of gap closers' issue, I like item 3269 for tenacity and movespeed (don't build boots of mobility on him, they're trash after the nerf), item 3022 as it also gives health, or item 3025 if you're not gonna build triforce. Triforce and zephyr help with that too. Udyr has mama problems, and likes cooldown reduction; try item 3110 or . In terms of magic resist, I go for item 3065 (because of the incoming health from turtle, flare, and BotRK, if you build it) and item 3111 ,

Now to answer your question about stances, it depends on whether you're going tiger stance our phoenix stance. Tiger gives huge single target damage and a great AS steroid, and yes, it's better in late game, because phoenix scales off of AP, and you're (hopefully) not building AP. Phoenix, on the other hand, gives almost unmatched clear speed and if you're going tank it will pour out damage to their entire team while you're in there, plus triforce and Iceborn gauntlet both give small amounts of AP (just don't build both of them). For the sake of this convo, we'll refer to the stance you're going for as you're damage stance. For a beginner, you start your damage stance, then put a point into turtle, then bear, then max your damage stance. At six you can't put a point into your damage stance, so pour a second point into bear. After that, put points into your bear and turtle depending on how the game is going. Default is bear, but turtle if you're getting wrecked. Usually you don't put points into the leftover stance until 16, but if you want to do so before hand, go ahead. But bear and your damage stance should all be maxed out. You SHOULD always max turtle as well, but you can take a point out top put in your extra stance if you want. I used to leave 3 points in turtle and max phoenix and tiger, but I've always known the to be wrong, I just did it anyway. And you don't really max turtle for the life steal, you do it for the shield. The life steal is useless anyway because you'll spend almost no time in turtle stance anyway. Once you get more experience under your belt, you can start off with your damage stance then put points into the other stance for clear speed. However when it comes to living in the jungle (as long as Udyr has mana, you shouldn't have to ever use a health pot) turtle is the better second stance.

While we're talking stances, in a fight you should ALWAYS have full monkey's agility stacks. If you don't, you're doing it wrong. And when you're in a bush waiting for someone to pass by (not saying this should be your strategy, but this will happen at some point) hit your damage stance early so that you hit them with the first-hit damage, then as soon as you hit them hit your damage stance again for max burst, THEN go into bear stance.

Good luck!

NubeelNov 1, 20141 votes

Thanks for the reply.

I was wondering what your position regarding item 3009 is. My Udyr Rune page has 3 Move speed quints, 5 attack speed reds, 4 AD reds, 9 armor yellows, 3 CDR blues and 6 MR Blues. Should I change something?

Also what would be a build order assuming you're even or ahead?

JC DarkOmenNov 2, 20141 votes

Honestly any boots aside from item 3117 are good, but Tenacity is a lifesaver. that's why i completely stopped building item 3207 after they took it off, (although the new one is the best tank item in game). i build item 3269 because it gives an extra 5 movespeed and its passive is better, but you might need homeguards if the game goes badly enough or distortion if you have tp, so putting them on item 3009 is better. Honestly I think you'd benefit more from 9 AS reds, but Udyr is really flexible, plus runes are expensive XD. the armor is great for the jungle, and the CDR blues are good, but i usually have at least 30% CDR in my build anyway so I just go 9 MR. However Trick2g (hands down the best Udyr in the world, could be challenger but he screws around too much) has blues in his runes, so do whichever.

my usual build is item 3340 item 1039 item 2003 x3 --> item 3106 item 1080 (faster clear, more sustain; for more details just search "madstone") --> item 1001 item 3154 item 3341 (sell the warding totem) --> item 3111 --> item 3022 --> item 3269 --> item 3065 --> item 3110 . Then for my last item if I need power fast I'll get item 3101 --> item 3172 --> item 3264 (zephyr gives tenacity, so you can get the AA damage reduction from ninja tabis now) because it lets me duel better, run faster, and take objectives quicker; it's my "teamfights aren't working so it's time to backdoor" item. If you're really ahead, or the game lasts so long you have the money for it after buying zephyr, then just go for item 3078 .