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The REAL problem behind J4, Lee Sin, and Zed

Hawkefire·1/5/2015, 9:54:14 AM·23 votes·2,826 views

Alright, I have been seeing a lot of complaints about these champions (Mostly about zed, with a fair amount of Lee Sin sprinkled in, and a tiny bit of J4 here and there).

People keep saying that the problem with these champions is their kits, and while in some degree this is true, but I honestly think you all are failing to notice the big picture here.

And that picture is: item 3035 item 3071 item 3142

And what do these 3 items have in common? Thats right, ARMOR PENETRATION.

Honestly, I think these champions are such a massive problem right now simply because Armor Penetration, as it is currently in the game, is downright broken.

You cannot effectively itemize against these champions because ALL of them spam armor penetration, and nearly all of them deal % HP damage (Zed often builds a botrk, Lee Sin's Q does missing HP, Jarvan does % max HP with is autos), this means you cannot build HP against them, and you cannot build armor against them, so effectively you have to blow them up, before they blow you up.

And therein lies the problem. Zed is excellent at eliminating targets without dealing with too much of a counterattack. Lee Sin is crazy mobile and generally builds pretty tank while still dishing out pretty ridiculous amounts of damage (especially early game), Jarvan is generally built bruiser/tank and dishes out a fair amount of damage (although I feel Jarvan's damage is much more manageable than the other 2 mentioned offenders).

In fact, lets have a look at some previous characters that were considered overpowered.

Such as Rengar.

Guess what Rengar was building (and generally still does)?

That's right, Rengar generally builds at least one armor penetration item, (and if he is going full assassin he usually builds all 3).

Then there is Talon....and take a wild guess at what he builds?

See my point?

The problem isn't the champions, the problem is with the fact that armor penetration is so flipping overpowered that it A) makes tanks irrelevant and B) makes squishies SIGNIFICANTLY squishier

You want those champs fixed? Fixed Armor penetration first, THEN have a look at them.

54 Comments

Trylobyte1/5/2015, 11:53:47 AM14 votes

The issue most people have with J4 is more that he's annoyingly disruptive to teamfights but still hurts enough to be a threat to squishies if you ignore him. Which actually makes him a pretty good example of what a bruiser is supposed to be. Most champions who really need to can still blow him up or at least make him back off before he can do the same to them since he doesn't build damage and doesn't get worryingly tanky until mid-late game.

SmokinSickStyle1/5/2015, 3:51:07 PM10 votes

Meanwhile mages...

IF you have to address penetration being broken, you should also put in magic pen.

Magic resist is much less common, both with items (when compared to armor ones, not in number but in items that are worth building outside mr itself), both in champion kits, for example 99%(100%?) of ranged champions have no scaling magic resist, some tanks like Shen and Maokai have scaling magic resist as well, and some melee champions have yet again no scaling magic resist, whilst almost single champion has armor scaling with the only exception being Thresh, that has it's own armor gain mechanic.

Magic damage dealers also have magic pen boots meanwhile AD have not, also magic pen comes in higher values (Outside Yomama's blade, most flat m.pen items have a minumum of 15 compared to arm.pen 10).

Both Last Whisper and Void Staff are way too cost efficient.

Both Assassin and Mages(Counting in AP assassins in this category) are in the same strong position, where AD Assassins have a much better early-mid and in skirmishes whilst mages reign supreme in teamfights where usually assassin lose their efficiency (Assuming both teams have the same build quanitity.).

It's VERY hard to balance this out, as if penetration becomes as weak as in season 2, league of warmogs\tanks\bruisers will rise again and we are just stuck in vicious cycle (This being my opinion as i and i think Riot too, have an hard time imagining a fix to this situation.)

Kowe The Ewok1/5/2015, 2:54:38 PM6 votes

For Lee and Zed the issue is extended by having a meaningless ressource and incredible safety build in their kits.

Gorsz1/5/2015, 3:16:31 PM4 votes

Its obvious Zed is OP.

When a champion is nearly pick/ban almost every game its a super obvious red flag.

Lame people always looking for a "metaknight" to cheese with.

Remlap12231/5/2015, 11:37:12 AM4 votes

Don't lump J4 in with Lee Sin and Zed, his abilities actually are balanced, the last buff to him actually made him viable and I'd hate to see that taken away on such a healthy champion.

Spookzie1/5/2015, 5:30:14 PM1 votes

Can someone explain to me why Zed would build Botrk. Botrk is an auto attack item and Zeds damage comes from his skills, not auto attacks. To me, Zed has the ability to go all in and get the hell out which is great, but if you're in the middle of a team fight auto attacking, you're going to blow up.

DoraTheBrown1/5/2015, 10:04:26 PM1 votes

i dun find lee op dey usually feed (myself while playing lee or some other people)

QuantumLight1/5/2015, 10:16:18 PM1 votes

Why doesnt anyone mention vi. either as a good jg or as armor pen benifiting. just a item 3071 can make her very strong. and there is no escaping from her r. shes disruptive as hell in teamfights with that stupid ultimate nailing the adc and plowing through the team to get there.

Learnding1/5/2015, 10:58:18 PM1 votes

The real reason every nerf or buff fails is because Riot thinks of a quick way to fix the champion for the current meta. They continuously forget that the champion may become useful in later patches.

Angry Monster1/6/2015, 1:22:15 AM1 votes

i dont actually have a problem with j4.

Knight Devout1/6/2015, 1:40:30 PM1 votes

I think J4 is quite in a good spot, since he has less mobility and damage than Lee Sin in exchange for team utility (armor Shred and Attack speed boost). Of course, unlike self-mobility and damage, those buffs strength depends on how well your team synergize with them, thus they are usually underappreciated, but still, let's ignore that point for now. What I mean is that J4 is actually working as intended, his % damage is based on current health, he has innate armor shred, thus working like a good initiator. He's also more exposed after using his mobility tool because Demacian Standard has a 13 seconds cooldown.

Anyway, it's true, I saw a lot of Lee Sins failing because they rush Hydra or even triforce without even a brutalizer. Yes, your base damage is good, AND THAT'S THE REASON YOU GET ARMOR PEN. Last whisper is just too good at the moment to skip it. Zed mains now know quite efficiently when to rush armorpen (usually right after botrk).

BeatzBoyFTW1/5/2015, 2:25:24 PM1 votes

For mid champs who builds armor penetration, is one way to counter champs who builds a item 3157 . Just saying.

warpenguin5551/5/2015, 3:31:13 PM1 votes

Lee has a god early game, zed is a safe and strong pick, and jarvan...well im sorry i have no idea.

Xtremey1/5/2015, 4:00:15 PM1 votes

jarvan does CURRENT %hp damage. same with bork.

ImHerVoice1/5/2015, 5:22:50 PM1 votes

i never build armor pen on j4 I play him with a tiamat until i can finish it while going full tank. I might buy a brutalizer for the CDR buit thats just only because the jungle item requires it not because I really give a shit about AD. Runes+masteries and a hydra are the only damage I ever need because I actually know how to use my Q to gain the armor pen from it and then ult and then use hydra and THEN apply my passive. Only after Q has been landed.

If you're going to make stupid statements at least learn what j4 actually builds.

DPS j4 is shit. anyone who builds him like that is asking to get killed by other champions with higher base stats. Higher DPS And higher everything. J4 is an example of one of the best utility tanks in this entire game. He's not broken in the slightest. Stop trying to think that just because you can't walk sideways out of his puny EQ range that he's broken Lol.

Anyone who's someone knows you can literally negate his entire precense by just not dieing pre six since farming the new jungle is the worst death sentence to any ganking jungler. you'll be six when he's level 4. Thats how bad it is. (solo lane vs jungle that is assuming he didnt tax any minions and just straight farmed or failed a gank and then went back to farming etc)