Can junglers please get the season 8 ADC treatment and have Riot listen to our feedback for once?

Naalith·1/7/2020, 2:04:39 AM·3 votes·2,080 views

In season 8 there were a ton of changes that were basically back to back roundhouse kicks to the playerbase. Mage items were controversially changed, enchanters were essentially either nerfed out of existence or turned into poke mages, ADC items were "reworked" (read: made so bad people just played other classes bot), bruisers were so bad items were introduced to PBE to help them but never released, and junglers were hard nerfed by experience being redistributed to the scuttle crab camp in an attempt to promote "interaction."

This single move immediately made it junglers that couldn't win duels were deleted from existence. A few junglers who could tank through a duel and steal crabs easily like Nunu survived, but Lee Sin, Xin Zhao, and Camille became complete gods for the rest of the season. While Camille was nerfed to force her back top and Xin has somewhat fallen out of favor, Lee Sin has gotten BUFFED since this patch despite him already being the best jungler pick. What has Riot done to remedy this situation and bring junglers back into viability who aren't named Lee Sin? They have nerfed jungle XP several times... which hurts junglers who don't go ham on ganking more than ones who do... therefore making Lee Sin even more insane comparatively to junglers who want a single minute of chilling per game.

The camp respawn timers being lowered did little to fix this discrepancy. Some junglers can't even make use of the lower respawn times if they are power farming because they are so slow. Others can technically use it, but power farming still leaves you vastly underleveled versus a man who goes ham on ganking and stealing waves of XP from their teammates. It also goes against what many junglers want to happen to our role. You can't just nerf XP to the point where a jungler who fails a couple ganks is a lower level than their bottom laners and say you "did right by the jungle playerbase." This inflames the issue junglers have with the game: that they have to continuously get successful ganks off back to back to back, while keeping objective control, while getting every scuttle crab, while power farming in an optimal path, while watching to countergank, while weighing the flame of your teammates who want your help and blame you for every loss, etc. This role is broken.

Here's what needs to happen. Riot has already started to slowly move in some of these directions, but who knows if we'll have to wait until season 11 for them to finish going this way (or maybe season 11 will just slap the jungle playerbase across the face again, who knows).

  1. The OP junglers need to be nerfed.

You might be saying "Hey, that goes for every role" and you would be correct. However, many other roles in the game either have counterpicks to get around OP champions or at the very least you can hide under tower. In the jungle, Lee Sin will immediately kill you the nanosecond he sees you. If he's smart enough to invade, you lose not only gold but the OPPORTUNITY TO GET XP. If you survive the encounter, you will likely need to recall and have also likely lost every camp on the side of your jungle the fight happened in. Lee Sin has been allowed to destroy the game for far too long, we get he's popular and Riot wants him to be esports viable so casters can go insane when he pulls a mechanical play, but he has ruined the game for non pros for literal years now and needs to be slapped down the way Camille was.

  1. Epic camps need to be less important.

Junglers are somewhat falsely maligned as the sole person on a team who can win a game. While this is a hilarious overestimation and leads to toxicity to the point where junglers are blamed entirely for their teams' losses (never their victories though), it is true that winning when behind on permanent stat increases is painful. I actually think Baron is relatively balanced, as an objective that generally requires more than one person and only spawns in the mid to late game roaming/teamfighting phase of the match. Dragons, on the other hand, are stupidly strong. While in previous seasons you could ignore weak dragons and take objectives while the other team fought it, in season 10 each dragon your opponent gets increases a progress bar that instantly wins them the game. The dragon soul has essentially put a gun to the head of junglers, the second you lose a single dragon (even one whose effect is not beneficial for your team) you will immediately get flamed by a team of people who know a dragon soul results in an enemy victory. In previous seasons, if the enemy had something insane like 3 infernal dragons you could still take other objectives and solve an alternate win condition. Dragon souls give so much power that the second they are claimed, your team will be wiped out (except in the case of Clown Drake soul omegalul nice Nimbus Cloak.) Elder dragon is also an immediate win condition. I've seen elder spawn maybe 5 times all season and the team who claims it instantly wins. Just make its effect be that it destroys the Nexus instead.

  1. Camps need more XP.

Take power out of epic camps and put it back into a jungler's small camps. Simple as that. The number of times I have seen a jungler who is a lower level than their bottom laners this season is insane. It's hard for farming junglers to compete with Lee Sin when he not only gets more successful ganks due to his overloaded and overpowered kit, but when they get LESS GOLD AND XP farming than Lee gets ganking people back to back to back and stealing minion XP.

  1. Rework scuttle crab.

This was once a camp that gave very little XP but a decent amount of gold. It was a bonus after clearing your entire jungle, not the sole creature who you must catch every time it spawns. The point of scuttle was originally to be a teamwide buff that gave enough vision to deter enemies from getting epic camps and gave map control in the form of a speedy buff that helps roams and escapes from fights. There is no longer strategy in thinking of when to kill the crab. It is now as simple as "I'd rather lose my blue buff than this camp with 6 billion XP on it" so you spawn kill it as much as you can and hope your laners don't come steal it. It's absolutely asinine how much the season 8 changes ruined jungle with scuttle crab alone. Making it spawn a minute later helped a bit just because it doesn't make you duel a guy at the start of the game if you and the other jungler go to the same crab, but it is still an unhealthy design for the game. If you won't revert the crab, add some sort of collection mechanic to jungle items where you get bonus XP from killing your 6th camp or something. I'm tired of fighting over the dumbass crab, not only when I jungle but when I have to roam to help my jungler secure their crab in a stupid 4th minute "teamfight." It's not fun for laners or junglers to battle over this stupid thing.

I know junglers don't make up as high a portion of the playerbase and don't have the same number of insanely popular streamers like ADC, Mid, and Top lane do, but the kneecapping of this portion of the playerbase needs to end. Every change Riot makes to stop people from spam ganking which used to be the complaint does the opposite of what they intended. By reducing XP in the jungle, spam ganking has become the only viable way to get and stay ahead. It isn't fun that the role with the widest variety of classes (every class is present in the jungle roster, even enchanters like Ivern) has the least number of gameplay options. Your purpose in game is to farm in a pre-thought out path and repeatedly gank people or you'll fall behind, grabbing dragons along the way upon penalty of an instant loss if you fail to do any of the above. It just isn't fun anymore and the fact the playerbase has shrunk below that of support in some regions is evidence that Riot has messed up and needs to reverse course.

8 Comments

VonCesaw1/7/2020, 4:48:59 AM3 votes

YES VALUED CUSTOMER WE HAVE HEARD YOUR CONCERNS AND HAVE REWORKED ASSASSINS AGAIN THEY WEREN'T AS STRONG AS THE CHINESE AND KOREAN MARKETS WANTED THEM TO BE SO THEY ARE NOW THE ONLY ONES ALLOWED IN BOTH MID AND JUNGLE If you pick anything else, it's your own fault for losing Us forcing games to last 25 minutes at most? NO, it's your fault for not playing early game as well. Games having less than a 9% chance to win after you've lost an inhib? YOU HAVE SIGNED A CONTRACT BY STARTING THE GAME, AND GIVING UP IS A REPORTABLE OFFENSE Unable to deal with a champion due to disability, old age, poor reflexes, or bad connection/computer? That's your fault, and only your fault. If you can't react within .25 seconds-.75 seconds, that's just on you. (Every test I saw that measured eye-to-brain-to-hand reactions puts it anywhere from .33-.45 seconds as average for men age 25 and younger with adequate physical activity, with older people, non-active people, and women as lower on said scale) Did your ADC go AFK for any period of time? Well, it's your support's fault for last hitting anything without them there, because support items need to PUNISH YOU when your ADC is otherwise incompetent or predisposed. Is the enemy mid coming top or bot without warning? Well, that's your fault too for not having enough map awareness. Is an enemy laner fed? It's your fault for not helping to stop them. Is your entire team incompetent? It's YOUR FAULT for not carrying all of them by yourself

SirWimder1/7/2020, 3:02:55 AM1 votes

I always love a new season..... Now please This is from a low elo player so just note this is where i am coming from.

  1. If OP champs are a problem...If you are not a one trick....Then learn the counters right? I know that im silver but when i see lee sin jungles, I love to pick Volibear. Go ahead and q me and try to kill me....im going to run you down like the blind f you are and make you pray for death with passive w. I found the counter in my elo. Find the one in yours!

  2. I cant really talk about the other points, but I see alot of people complaining about the XP....and all i can think is that these people like to play farm heavy style of junglers.....when riot is clearly saying....get the f out of the jungle and be active. If you get a kill on a lane or make them back.....dont walk away...take that exp from lane.... I know your dimond....but fuck their freeze, get that xp....move to mid...kill...get that xp...bot....kill...xp...then farm jungle xp.

My goal when i Jungle is to make the other team rage in all chat about how their jungle is shit and never ganking. and the more people i can get to complain the more i know im doing my job right. Yeah im not the most cs jungler on the map.....but 2 of my 3 enemy laners wont even push out....and 1 insta flashes the second i show. Fear is respect.....and a jungler who is not feared, is a jungler who needs to step up their game! ALPHA KITTY!!!!!!

Just thoughts from a low elo player, but enjoy my friend and have a blessed day!

Illabethe1/7/2020, 5:18:07 AM1 votes

SCUTTLE IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT CAMP. That is why you hate jungle. Learn what camp is, and adjust @_@

Minimac20001/7/2020, 8:57:13 AM1 votes

Thing is, jg isn't weak rn. Not at all. Just feels shit to play bc the losing jg always is forced to go 0/15 due to carchup xp removal with the winning jg still being a hugely impactful member. Makes every game a 4v5 with every op neutral objective going to the 5 without some hard inting happening